Problem to start when the engine is hot

[LuisCarlos]

the pinch test.
hot engine.
1/2 the air for 800 rpm power, comes from ISC
and 1/2 the bleed. (when duty is at 50%)
there are no other air supplies

Complety agreed with you

armed with those facts.
you can pinch the ISC, if RPM does not, cut in half,(1/2) or stall?, then at the same time ,turn the BLEED CW. (closing this last supply of air)
the RPM MOST FALL to 400 or stall. if not? there IS A LEAK (vacuum)

Yes, that was what happened the needle stopped in the white line next to the 0 in gauge toy, but in the last viseo we are complety agreed there are a hurricane air leak..

usually when you have say a small air leak (vacuum) and idle is too high


Yes, gauge toy confused me, I know that now..

and you start turning the bleed screw CW, at some point the ISC wakes up(its not pinched now) and idle Locks in at 800rpm , regulating.
The bleed screw can hide some small leaks, (with in the range of the bleed, and ISC)
but most leaks get worse in time, and above is just a band-aid to nowhere...

Yes, you told me that cheating in ECM before, I don't forget it..

---

once i get an engine running right ,not misfiring, or bogging, i do this test (pinch) and bleed checks,per above
before doing any duty cycle tests or precision spark timing. (timing needs idle near 800 +freeze jumper)
if there are no major leaks , i then do the duty cycle calibration and for sure, on all new Throttle-bodies.

I must to find the hurricane in the vitara and after that will be see about duty cicle, I'm going to take the vitara to mechanic and do again the same ari leak test with him, to konw what he think about, if nothing to do with the mechanic, I'll open all parts if is necessary, of course..

and we have a cheap meter that works now. off ebay.
i just tested it from 5v to 18v and a wide ranges of ISC frequencies (or is 200hZ) it works great.

A man from another Forum sent me this model, he said you use it too, I met you and this Forum because he sent me some Fixkick pages of you, and for that I registered in your Forum, afortunately, of course too..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/331500832195

But I can't buy it in dolars, only in euros, but I'll try to get one like this..

keep in mind all 8v engines make full power, with vacuum leaks, the engine might scream and make huge power when the iSC looses control.

For what the idle rises when there are some leaks ? The air-fuel change and is poor in fuel, so why increses ?..
Because when we used engines with carburator, and we pull the cable before to start to close the air entrance, the engine increases the speed..
Perhaps is another system..
Tell me please..

At the end I know how to write in letters color..

I'll insert some picture about new horn gasket in the gallery and the place where I did the last air test..

Cheers!!

[fixkick]

yes, they did sell carb cars in Europe. in 1996, (not one here, they are all illegal here starting about 1988) last carb here...1994 (Light truck) : Isuzu[11]
the TBI is no a carb. there is no relationship at all, from a CARB to TBI. zero.
TBI is just single injector , injection but the injectors is in the Throttle body, , our 1996 is MPI port injected x4. all are here. every one.

the butterfly name is pure mechanical engineering, name for a valve that when removed looks like a butteryfly,
butterfly valve, (aka in the car world as the throttle plate, etc)
back in the olden days, all carb books called it the butterfly valve. why? because we removed it and cleaned it and it looks like a yellow butterfly removed.
it's brass colored, yellow. when you open that valve, the engine receives maximum air, it is in fact just an AIR VALVE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_valve
on your car, the TV (butterfly ) is 100% (99.9%) closed at idle and supplies 0 air, nada.


drops "next to 0 in gauge toy," that is like 200 to 400 rpm so is good. the toy gauge is fully able to diagnose any ISC, or do calibration of ISC.
the lower the rpm the engine runs, that means it is STRONG, and has good compressing, etc. but your's failed to stall.
keep in mind the toy dash gauge is very non linear below say 500 rpm. (analog toy it is, ) but is fully usable for many things.. if not bad.


if you just do 2 things, this proves it:
pinch the ISC air hose, and turn the bleed screw CW, as you turn the screw, bleed, the air goes to zero and engine must stall.
must stall or you have leaks.
that is all there is to leaks tests.
Math:?
all-air = ISC + bleed. (Algebra) HOT. (at idle)
all-air = 0 + 0 ( there is no air at all, engine can NOT RUN with 0 air.) the first zero is the pinch, the 2nd zero is the bleed closed CW.
see my math here/?

the videos all say private. with sad face in player....
ok we work leaks next?

---

my thinking now (you never told me why the old TB was bad,,,,,,)"the word "scraping" alludes me as to what that was) sorry....
MAYBE the old TB works, ok.?
because your mechanic does not know how to DISCOVER
1 vacuum leaks?
2 prove it leaks (pinch tests) ISC check , duty checks.
3 and what exactly is leaking. (lots of test or smoke machine)
4: has no idea how nor why Dutycycle must be checked first (old TB) and set on the NEW TB..

there is a huge vacuum running, there in the plenum (plenum = induction system below the TB throttle plate)
and all leaks there, suck air. and all leaks there, cause the ISC to go nuts. (now or soon as all leaks never fix themselves; they get worse)


Reasons to replace a TB are: (what was yours?)
1: IAC bad. (RIP one TB) (can not be replaced, as a sub assembly)
2: injector bad, replace it. not TB.
3: ISC bad, replace it , not TB,.
4: throttle bore damaged, due to TB butteryfly plate set wrong.
5: throttle shafts worn so bad at TB butterfly shaft ,the suck air. (just like carbs did for 100 years ,same reason) can cause #4
6: gross ice damage, yes, water freezes and wrecks anything...
7a: something broke off TB, a nipple or?
8: dash pot bad, yes, those can be very hard to find...

[LuisCarlos]

yes, they did sell carb cars in Europe. in 1996, (not one here, they are all illegal here starting about 1988) last carb here...1994 (Light truck) : Isuzu[11]
the TBI is no a carb. there is no relationship at all, from a CARB to TBI. zero.
TBI is just single injector , injection but the injectors is in the Throttle body, , our 1996 is MPI port injected x4. all are here. every one.

Yes, I knew was another different system, injector, ISC, IAC, and of course the ECU, but about mixture air-fuel I din't know exactly, that's OK now..


the butterfly name is pure mechanical engineering, name for a valve that when removed looks like a butteryfly,
butterfly valve, (aka in the car world as the throttle plate, etc)
back in the olden days, all carb books called it the butterfly valve. why? because we removed it and cleaned it and it looks like a yellow butterfly removed.
it's brass colored, yellow. when you open that valve, the engine receives maximum air, it is in fact just an AIR VALVE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_valve
on your car, the TV (butterfly ) is 100% (99.9%) closed at idle and supplies 0 air, nada.

The TBI is brass colored too, is the same engineering that throttlr valve.. Have including a monument in water pipes Induetries, is very curious..



if you just do 2 things, this proves it:
pinch the ISC air hose, and turn the bleed screw CW, as you turn the screw, bleed, the air goes to zero and engine must stall.
must stall or you have leaks.
that is all there is to leaks tests.
Math:?
all-air = ISC + bleed. (Algebra) HOT. (at idle)
all-air = 0 + 0 ( there is no air at all, engine can NOT RUN with 0 air.) the first zero is the pinch, the 2nd zero is the bleed closed CW.
see my math here/?

Yes, I have understood that, in the last test pinching ISC air hose, and clossing bleed screw to the end, the engine continued running, don't stall, for that have to be a leak..

the videos all say private. with sad face in player....
ok we work leaks next?

I'm sorry about..
Today, I'm going to see to my brother to send videos in a correct way.. But my videos in YouTube are for the public not in a private way, so I don't know what happening..



my thinking now (you never told me why the old TB was bad,,,,,,)"the word "scraping" alludes me as to what that was) sorry....
MAYBE the old TB works, ok.?

1º- The old TBI during long time working as normal, but it began to failure, that was what happened, when started in could r.p.m were 800, and in hot was very difficult to balanced the idle, consume a lot of fuel, smeaalling very bad, and doesn't passed Technical Inspection..

2º-So the mechanic got another TBI in a scrapping of cars where there are so mny cars to sell to scrap industries, and they remove some parts to sell to everybody, particular person or workshops cars ..

3º- But that old TBI faillure also, when started in could idle was about 1000 r-p-m, no more, and when the engine in hot and the idle was in traffic light or in traffic jam, the idle increased at 1500 r.p.m and never droped to 800 r.p.m..


because your mechanic does not know how to DISCOVER
1 vacuum leaks?
2 prove it leaks (pinch tests) ISC check , duty checks.
3 and what exactly is leaking. (lots of test or smoke machine)
4: has no idea how nor why Dutycycle must be checked first (old TB) and set on the NEW TB..

[color=#C71585]Yes, I'll ask him these question and more..
You know the mechanic is a good man but he's very stressed, his son told me 'my father are heart problem, he want to do everything to satisfy all clients '..
His workshop is always full of cars.. He forgot to fix a srew fron the plastic cap above the TBI, and I found other screw above the battery, it was the screw that is supporting the fuel metal pipe that come from the fuel tank and connect to TBI with two screw, it's fixed with a ring rubbert..
I also found above the battery the bleed rubber plug..

But what to do? At least he got the new TBI to half price, he's uncle of a friend long, he has good intention to do everything but some time faillure because want to do everything very fast..
I took the vitara there because he's the only has Suzuki OBD.. When I went to ask in another workshop, they don't have Suzuki OBD..

there is a huge vacuum running, there in the plenum (plenum = induction system below the TB throttle plate)
and all leaks there, suck air. and all leaks there, cause the ISC to go nuts. (now or soon as all leaks never fix themselves; they get worse)

Yes, I asked him about new base TBI gasket, he said he put the right gasket blocking the five holes in the plenum, but I'm not sure, I'll open it if is necessary, of courese

Reasons to replace a TB are: (what was yours?)
1: IAC bad. (RIP one TB) (can not be replaced, as a sub assembly)


[color=#800080]Ye, it's integrated in TBI.

2: injector bad, replace it. not TB.
3: ISC bad, replace it , not TB,.
4: throttle bore damaged, due to TB butteryfly plate set wrong.
5: throttle shafts worn so bad at TB butterfly shaft ,the suck air. (just like carbs did for 100 years ,same reason) can cause #4
6: gross ice damage, yes, water freezes and wrecks anything...
7a: something broke off TB, a nipple or?
8: dash pot bad, yes, those can be very hard to find...

Anyway, I told him to get a new TBI, and because TBI is now I think we have a huge leaks, according at your information..
I'll send you the test blocking the mean air entrance and how the engine don't satall and the sount about air leaks..

I'll do another pinching ISC air hose and clossing bleed screw again..

Cheers !! and thanks again..

[fixkick]

Vitara JLK or Sidekick with G16A engine 8 valves
seems like all along its and air leak and more issues....
but running rich is not the TB bad ! not ever !, all air leaks cause fast idle but the fuel mix is perfect (hot) with all air leaks (vacuum leaks) the MAP sensor does that magic, it measure plenum vacuum, the ECU then Calculates the correct fuel , matching the vacaum (baro readings)
or plenum baro or as many say , plenum baro pressures, 0 pressure is max vacuum.
the 02 sensor then kicks in and sets air fuel ratios, even more perfectly no matter the air leaks, see why?
this is no MPI engine where leaks cause lean, this NOT MPI, and not MAF engines. at all. (a world of difference)

unless the old IAC is bad (stuck open or closed), or the throttle bore damaged, then all 3 of those TSBs were good, every one.!
sorry but that is a fact. (dash pot device too must work. retracts is what it does and very easy to see that action. and hear it drop. )

running rich has many causes..
o2 reading wrong hot. only, and only at idle and only at light cruse, and is disabled accelerating and at wide open throttle.
exhaust leaks near that 02 make it read max 0xygen (reads 0v all the time) and the engine goes to , MAX RICH. (seeing 02 stuck max lean)
fuel pressure too high
a bad ecu, in limphome or backup mode, or crashing (bad cap's)
leaking injector
ECT reads cold all the time ,
IAT reads cold all the time.
(assumes spark is good and timed right and cam timed right and 150psi or more on all cylinders.
end rich,


and besides all that, you have an air leak.
the air leak and fast idle is ONLY a distraction, to rich symptoms.


where the leak is? is below that throttle plate some where.
if all hoses do do not leak end to end (that means the diaphrams on the end too or VSV or what ever.... is there.)
the the intake is cracked or has a bad intake manifold to head gasket there. (seem them missing too,....)
there is a leak there
the proof.
you had zero air supply and it ran. end story. you have a leak,. for sure.
and is only ONE problem.
seems not the WORST.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4974' dateline='1448232599']
Vitara JLK or Sidekick with G16A engine 8 valves
seems like all along its and air leak and more issues....

Yes, is possible, there are more issues, and perhaps there are not any leaks..

but running rich is not the TB bad ! not ever !, all air leaks cause fast idle but the fuel mix is perfect (hot) with all air leaks (vacuum leaks) the MAP sensor does that magic, it measure plenum vacuum, the ECU then Calculates the correct fuel , matching the vacaum (baro readings)
or plenum baro or as many say , plenum baro pressures, 0 pressure is max vacuum.
the 02 sensor then kicks in and sets air fuel ratios, even more perfectly no matter the air leaks, see why?
this is no MPI engine where leaks cause lean, this NOT MPI, and not MAF engines. at all. (a world of difference)

OK..

unless the old IAC is bad (stuck open or closed), or the throttle bore damaged, then all 3 of those TSBs were good, every one.!
sorry but that is a fact. (dash pot device too must work. retracts is what it does and very easy to see that action. and hear it drop. )

We saw as D/P retract very well in could and in hot..

running rich has many causes..
o2 reading wrong hot. only, and only at idle and only at light cruse, and is disabled accelerating and at wide open throttle.
exhaust leaks near that 02 make it read max 0xygen (reads 0v all the time) and the engine goes to , MAX RICH. (seeing 02 stuck max lean)


I haven't forgoten that O2 sensor, the mechanic said it was OK.. It has about ten years only and not too much km, but is another candidate..


fuel pressure too high
a bad ecu, in limphome or backup mode, or crashing (bad cap's)
leaking injector
ECT reads cold all the time ,

That was my first assumption ECT reads could all the time..

IAT reads cold all the time.
(assumes spark is good and timed right and cam timed right and 150psi or more on all cylinders.
end rich,
and besides all that, you have an air leak.

Probably that is, but as you say is possible mpre issues..

the air leak and fast idle is ONLY a distraction, to rich symptoms.

A distraction, that's a very interesting concept..


where the leak is? is below that throttle plate some where.
if all hoses do do not leak end to end (that means the diaphrams on the end too or VSV or what ever.... is there.)
the the intake is cracked or has a bad intake manifold to head gasket there. (seem them missing too,....)
there is a leak there
the proof.
you had zero air supply and it ran. end story. you have a leak,. for sure.
and is only ONE problem.
seems not the WORST.

I'm agrred 99 % with you, because all tests lead to us to the same diagnosis..
But could be a dwarf devil hidden there..

I uploaded some videos to YouTube again, faillure other system..
I hope you can see them..

First video is the true problem, when the engine start in hot, and the idle need stepping on the accelerator a little to drop to 800 r.p.m more or less..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvFif85QyBw



Second, when start in hot but ISC coupler is disconnected, after a few seconds, then I connect it again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNwlgjTh5Ak




]Third, air test blocking the mean entrance, but the gases from the crankcase have free outlet, I blocked the entrance in the horn to avoid inlet freh air..
Then, there is not any sound, different when gases fron the crankcase couldn't go out, and was possible to damage crankshaft seals..
You can see it twice..


: https://youtu.be/sBCuplU0_IA




Well, you can see what I'm doing about to rule out errors..

ISC air hose and its clamps are new..
D/P and EGR vacuum are all new..
I claned EGR the last year,so when I opened it again it was clean, and I did test about according the manual, i.e. in could if you accelerate don't work, don't move diaphragm, in hot it move forward if you accelerate, and backward if you decelarate..
All test were OK..

But I bought a new one with a new gasket too, first because I see that outline, and because is good to the environment..

You can read in red Spanish letters

" diaphragms with air intakes ?"

Perhaps this photo faillure to insert..

http://ge.tt/3PPsWMS2/v/0?c

The diaphragm of the old EGR is much more easy to move it, but the new EGR diaphragm is more hard to move..
So I'm content to buy a new one EGR, it cost 90 E, $96,46..

I'll fix it tomorrow..

I tested PVC according manual blown air to intake manifold and was difficult to get the air inlet, and when I removed it the ball sounded 'clac, clack'...
But I bought a new one too, because the vitara has almost twenty years as you know, and PVC is very important to the environmnet too..
$12 only.. I'm waiting to come it..

I cleaned some engine ground connections, especially ground ECU and sensors in the termostat box, other one more next to the battery, timming and any other I see..

After I did the air test you can see in the third link, I went to the mechanic to tell him all about, because he said me 'come again after yo put the new gasket on the top horn'..
Then today, we were doing the same air test, and he said probably there is an air leak, but is possible another issues too..

So, I told him that happen when I'm going to the Land Sur 4X4 shop (Land is for Land Rover) to buy some parts like termostat, or radiator cap, and they were wrong and I had to go back to the shop again to given them the chasis number..
And he told me 'I know that, bring the vitara on thursday, I'll remove TBI again because I told them to bring a new TBI bottom gasket, but I'm not sure wgat about what I install, to see if the famous five holes are blocked..

I told him about DLC and indicate where it was in the engine room, he told me he did the duty cycle in the ECU, not in DLC..
I told him to remove TBI together on thursday, he said, 'not problem come here'..

You know, I didn't tell you for what the mechanic sometimes forget to put some parts in any cars..
Because so many people or from his familiy are calling him by mobile phone all the time, he's interrupted by so many phone calls, so that way is difficult to work..
Today, I had very good luck, two calls in three minutes only..

I have installed Malwarebytes Anti-Malware, my brother did it, and you was right, there were three dwarf hell hidden..
You can see one of them..

And this one maybe faillure too..

http://ge.tt/8FfjXMS2/v/0?c

Well, that all for the moment, its twelve o'cloc p.m..

Thanks and cheers!!

[fixkick]

02 sensors brand new fail (not bad truly, just lies) for any exhaust leaks, (air will suck in there for cracks near by, and engine goes rich. way rich)
im sure yours is ok with low miles... but not sure about cracks.. (scan tool shows 02 stuck at 0v. dead is top clue...)hot
Air leaks near the 02 are unacceptable totally. air is 20% oxygen, and just the smallest amount landing on O2 tips, slams it to 0v. (making it useless)
the mech, said:
" he told me he did the duty cycle in the ECU, not in DLC.."
does that mean? , he has a Tech1 scan tool ?and saw and set the duty turning the bleed? or just looked at it and sees. 90% and thinks that is ok and is not.
Leaks: (isc closed, bleed closed ) what i call test 1.... fails and fails hard, I dont know how to tell you more clearly..
it's not a maybe you have an air leak (vacuum)
it is A a "YOU DO have an air leak."
test 1:
you unplugged the isc elect. connector, this causes it to close 100% (or pinch it, same effect , if not the ISC is stuck open)
then screwed in the bleed 100% , at this time, there is no air supply now, to any new 8v engine, ZERO Air to run.
so it can NOT run with zero air. (impossible and makes test 1 so useful) see why?
so why, is yours running now (test1), answer : not a guess, it has Vacuum air leaks... for sure!

my comment about air and idle above , where its "distraction" only applies to back when the engine ran HUGELY rich.
we fix rich first. not idle ever.... or you or any mech is destracted..

IDLE speeds or DUTY cycle a last step in all repairs, major to the engine. last. never first.
air leaks to the plenum do NOT cause rich.
that is what is detracting. to many. and is why rich is the problem. to cure first.
if spark misfiring is happening then that is first first. (cant burn fuel with no spark or weak, so goes rich. at each misfire, and each misfire cause the O2 to go nuts)
(misfire = lots of raw fuel and lots of oxygen) fooling all 02 sensors. <tricky huh? the ECU does not measure HC, only 02.
if one cylinder misfires. it will send a slug of air (and lots of oxygen) to the 02, and it will read wrong.


PVC only keeps the engine from leaking oil like mad. with it clogged, crank case pressures can rise high ,causing oil leaks sometimes..
the engine will run ok with it clogged, but if the hose is cracked the air sucks in and races at idle.

your ISC is not clogged, it's new.
but pinching the hose, showed, lots of air flowing, from illegal sources.
this is a fact and 2x that if the bleed was closed down. CW.

test 1: HOT ENGINE.
ISC UNPUGGED, OR AIR HOSE PINCHED, i DO BOTH, SEE THEY ARE SAME.
THEN SCREW IN THE BLEED CW.
ENGINE MUST STALL.
THERE IS NO AIR TO RUN THE ENGINE,
NOW.
ZERO AIR...NOW.. TO BURN FUEL, PLENUM VACUUM CAN HIT 27 OR MORE INCHES HG, JUST AS IT STALLS, (ZERO AIR DOES JUST THAT)

OR ABOUT .9 TO 1BAR. VACUUM.
HUGE VACUUM , MAX.

---

WITH LARGE Plenum air leaks? (that space below the Throttle plate closed 100%) that place the intake valve suck so hard..... and 20"hg vacuum at idle 800.
the ISC gets overwhelmed. with air leaks.
say it's at 50% (with no leaks)
so you add a leak (with a hose pulled (vac) (seen with a duty meter)
the duty % drops. more and more, as you add small leaks of air.
then it hits 0% and the ISC has lost control ! ( cant close any more, ... is why)
and now idle speeds jump above 800 (lost control), and more RPM for each leak added.
same with pinching the ISC hose. (an opposite effect)
the duty goes HIGH way high. (ECU does this but iSC is dead now)
this attempts open the iSC and keep idle a 800 rpm , and will fail.
but we close the bleed and at some point the ISC cannot hold 800 rpm and idle speeds drop (we only have 1 air supply now , the bleed)
as the bleed is closed, the idle goes very low, and finally the engine stalls. as all air supplies are gone. (tiny bit from PCV very tiny)
the engine can not run with only PCV air. impossible. (its half air and half exh. fumes , crankcase blow by)
that is the full answer to how it works.
based on 100% = 12vdc to isc full time.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='5002' dateline='1448393122']
02 sensors brand new fail (not bad truly, just lies) for any exhaust leaks, (air will suck in there for cracks near by, and engine goes rich. way rich)
im sure yours is ok with low miles... but not sure about cracks.. (scan tool shows 02 stuck at 0v. dead is top clue...)hot
Air leaks near the 02 are unacceptable totally. air is 20% oxygen, and just the smallest amount landing on O2 tips, slams it to 0v. (making it useless)


I'll check the exhaust if any crack, for the moment I didn't hear any noise about, but I'll see near to O2 sensor, thete is a gasket just ten centimeters..


the mech, said:
" he told me he did the duty cycle in the ECU, not in DLC.."
does that mean? , he has a Tech1 scan tool ?and saw and set the duty turning the bleed? or just looked at it and sees. 90% and thinks that is ok and is not.

He said he did duty cycle with OBD, but I not sure if he saw 90 % and thought is OK.. but tomorrow, when we'll remove TBI I'll tell him to set duty turning the bledd..


Leaks: (isc closed, bleed closed ) what i call test 1.... fails and fails hard, I dont know how to tell you more clearly..
it's not a maybe you have an air leak (vacuum)
it is A a "YOU DO have an air leak."


Yes, for that I'm doing another air test apart from ISC air test and screw bleed closed, as if any EGR or its modulator has any leaks, vacuum hose, PCV hose is new too, I'm checking all possibility to find any leaks..
But the more important will be tomorrow when the mech and I remove TBi and see the plenum plate gasket, I have a new gasket of the TBI base pelnum, it can block all five holes, you can see in the gallery that gasket, because I can't insert any photo here..

test 1:
you unplugged the isc elect. connector, this causes it to close 100% (or pinch it, same effect , if not the ISC is stuck open)
then screwed in the bleed 100% , at this time, there is no air supply now, to any new 8v engine, ZERO Air to run.

Of course, I understood that very well, that's as if we put a plastic bag around our head, and mouth and nose will be closed, so we can't breathe and then we'll die..
But if we have a hole like a tracheotomy, we don't die, because we can breathe by that hole in our throat


IDLE speeds or DUTY cycle a last step in all repairs, major to the engine. last. never first.

I know that now, duty cycle must to be at last, not before..


air leaks to the plenum do NOT cause rich.
that is what is detracting. to many. and is why rich is the problem. to cure first.
if spark misfiring is happening then that is first first. (cant burn fuel with no spark or weak, so goes rich. at each misfire, and each misfire cause the O2 to go nuts)
(misfire = lots of raw fuel and lots of oxygen) fooling all 02 sensors. <tricky huh? the ECU does not measure HC, only 02.
if one cylinder misfires. it will send a slug of air (and lots of oxygen) to the 02, and it will read wrong.


Yes, I know about spark misfiring, if the engine ignition advance is wrong the egine will fail, or too much raw fuel as or oxygen you said, or any spark failling..
I'll tell to the mech to do it too..
Anyway, I'm going to buy a digital meter for heceforth to make measurements on my own, I have to learn how to operate that device, not problem..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331500832195

PVC only keeps the engine from leaking oil like mad. with it clogged, crank case pressures can rise high ,causing oil leaks sometimes..
the engine will run ok with it clogged, but if the hose is cracked the air sucks in and races at idle.

PCV hose is new too..

your ISC is not clogged, it's new.
but pinching the hose, showed, lots of air flowing, from illegal sources
this is a fact and 2x that if the bleed was closed down. CW.

Yes, and the engine have to stall, but that not happen, there is other place wher the air fresh is entering..

test 1: HOT ENGINE.
ISC UNPUGGED, OR AIR HOSE PINCHED, i DO BOTH, SEE THEY ARE SAME.
THEN SCREW IN THE BLEED CW.
ENGINE MUST STALL.
THERE IS NO AIR TO RUN THE ENGINE,
NOW.
ZERO AIR...NOW.. TO BURN FUEL, PLENUM VACUUM CAN HIT 27 OR MORE INCHES HG, JUST AS IT STALLS, (ZERO AIR DOES JUST THAT)

Yes, that was our first test, and the engine didn't stall, I did it three times and the result was the same, engine continue run in a low idle but it continue running..
That 's very clear, of course..

---

WITH LARGE Plenum air leaks? (that space below the Throttle plate closed 100%) that place the intake valve suck so hard.....


For that, tomorrow we are going to open TBI to be sure that plenum plate has installed the right gasket, I have a new one to be ready to install when we install TBI again..

the ISC gets overwhelmed. with air leaks.
say it's at 50% (with no leaks)
so you add a leak (with a hose pulled (vac) (seen with a duty meter)
the duty % drops. more and more, as you add small leaks of air.
then it hits 0% and the ISC has lost control ! ( cant close any more, ... is why)
and now idle speeds jump above 800 (lost control), and more RPM for each leak added.
same with pinching the ISC hose. (an opposite effect)
the duty goes HIGH way high. (ECU does this but iSC is dead now)
this attempts open the iSC and keep idle a 800 rpm , and will fail.

Yes, everything faillure with air leaks..

but we close the bleed and at some point the ISC cannot hold 800 rpm and idle speeds drop (we only have 1 air supply now , the bleed)

Yes, I understood that system, like if we blocked our mouth (similar to ISC air hose pinched), so that we can breathe still through the nose (similar to bleed screw idle open), then we'll not die..

as the bleed is closed, the idle goes very low, and finally the engine stalls. as all air supplies are gone. (tiny bit from PCV very tiny)
the engine can not run with only PCV air. impossible. (its half air and half exh. fumes , crankcase blow by)


I didn't konw that about PCV a tiny bit air, but anyway the engine must to stall as you said..

So tomorrow we'll know how was the plenum gasket plate below TBI and much more, after we finished that work that the mechac and I will do together..
We'll see spark misfiring if any, TBI plenum gasket and duty cycle at last..

I'll tell you everything about with all kind of details..


I tell you an interesting detail that I didn't know, the mechanic told me that when a difficult case happen and when he was working in Susuki Santana, the workshop sent all details and tests about that malfunction to Santana, then Santana sent to workshop how to repair it, then Santana kept it in the database because was possible that faillure could appear in another car..
I think all Cars Companies have the same system, or not ?..

Cheers!!

[fixkick]

yes the pcv valve is a check valve and orifice. one guy here, had Lincoln huge V8 engine PCV valve attached, and it has a huge orifice . bad.
tracheotomy , very funny this,, thanks, made my day.
and i saw your photo of you palm, with red rings, (sorry) and stalling engine that way, did it? one guy here last year, did that and engine ran....
example
ok engine runs good.
isc pinch engine runs so i starve engine with bleed, still runs (bad hard fail here) and if the palm test fails, to stall engine, the intake manifold has leaks.
so,, i then block the brake booster.
i then(no order here but must do them all) I pinch all hoses. all vsv hard vacuum plenun side hoses. all hoses can be pinched or corked up, and rpm fails to drop.
if RPM drops that hose leaks air.
EGR body or gasket not leaking fresh air, (vacuum here) sucking air.
map sensor hose not leaking or map nipple broken off. sucking air.
IAT sensor broken sucking air.
PCV leaking , (means above the spec, orifice amount (tiny) means not crack pcv or hose, or wrong PCV.
some guy put a 3speed A/T intake (i cant for life of may know what transmission is on your car, you need a signature,) but this 3sp has huge vacuum nipple on the top rear of the intake manifold and it can leak, or be broken and if on a 5speed some on forgot to block it.
the 3speed has TB base heater and 2 gaskets that can leak not just 1 like the 5speed cars...
ok , that is it for easy leaks.
of all those do not leak(RPM drops when blocked) then the head to intake manifold is bad cracked or missing.

last last last, intake manifold cracked. (has to be if all the above do not leak air) the hard way.. but proven...

those car repair guys that do statistical failures. can not fix cars. they guess, and see this huge list of causes.. for misfire its over 50 causes. (endless, )
ASE schools teach how to do real diagnosis. (using about 10 cheap tools and with EVIDENCE you follow that, like CSI does on TV, follow the facts)

but in this case its easy.
you did the tests. and you have a leak (vacuum leak) but we dont know why exactly
and like most leaks it will not get better, they get worse. mostly.

dont get me wrong, this engine runs great with AIR leaks, rpm can be excessive, mpg lower, slipping the clutch can be a challenge. but it drives
and will drive like that for a long time if not forever (effectively)
really this is the beautify of the 8v TBI, this.

and if say you had a tiny, air leak, say this tiny crack in a hose that by fate seem not to get worse
the ISC will hide that error. and correct it, i can do that very easy, and duty rises above 50% is the only clue...... hidden from view.

i said all that because other dont wont to fix it ,just hide it.... and can be done for a while... if not excessive..... i think yours is excessive.
the engine sucks 400cc of air, every 180degress of crank rotation, somehow there is leak allowing that much air or 1/2.... and runs.... like magic..

for sure you are on track. (no pun)

please fill out your signature.... i have trouble keeping it in my old 68yo brain.... sorry.
Vitara JLK Santana - G16A - 8 valves, doors?, 4wd? 3/4/5? speed transmission.

---

all hoses can be pinched.
except (2) the brake booster, it has a metal pipe and very hard hose. (so i CORK it,or use rubber stopper) remove cork restart , retest.
the map is also tricky if you pinch it the map can read 0" vacuum and engine goes way rich and slows.. fooling you.
so on the map sensor i never pinch that. hose. make sure the plenum side sucks air pulled a second, that hose is not cracked?, then make sure the map sensor is not cracked
i use my handy dandy hand vacuum tool and pump up by hand say 10 inches HG vacuum and see that it holds there.. ok ,NO leaks on the map side.
this is what i do... to find all air leaks, besides pinching.
in the end the "processes of elimination" proves what is bad, last , is a true manifold leak, gaskets or cracks. or even a loose manfold on the the.

i skipped TV stuck open because its not. and is new.
a good mech , once the leaking air is seen.... all tests are like 1 hours work, blocking hoses etc. and working directly to the true cause.
and last ordering a new intake gasket , and he then does the text book is my manifold or head warped test.
the book shows you that we take a steel ruler. and and feeler gauges, and check both surfaces for .0015" max warp... (i can look it up this number is off cuff)
this engine has a steel gasket there and is very unforgiving if warp-age.

[LuisCarlos]

tracheotomy , very funny this,, thanks, made my day.

Welcome, we have to laugh when the work is hard..

and i saw your photo of you palm, with red rings, (sorry) and stalling engine that way, did it? one guy here last year, did that and engine ran....
example
ok engine runs good.
isc pinch engine runs so i starve engine with bleed, still runs (bad hard fail here) and if the palm test fails, to stall engine, the intake manifold has leaks.
so,, i then block the brake booster.

Well. when I took that palm ring photo the engine didn't stall, but today the engine stall very fast, I'll tell you why, but before I'll answer your questions and details..

i then(no order here but must do them all) I pinch all hoses. all vsv hard vacuum plenun side hoses. all hoses can be pinched or corked up, and rpm fails to drop.
if RPM drops that hose leaks air.

All thuse hoses are new, they have two weeks only..

EGR body or gasket not leaking fresh air, (vacuum here) sucking air.

EGR is clean with spray to carburator, I instaledl a new gasket, and it has new hoses to modulator SVS and SVS to intake manifold too..

map sensor hose not leaking or map nipple broken off. sucking air.

That Absolute Pressure has new hose, it has a small filter..

IAT sensor broken sucking air.


That sensor is new too, it has about two month only..

PCV leaking , (means above the spec, orifice amount (tiny) means not crack pcv or hose, or wrong PCV.

I test that PVC, it sound 'clac, clac', and its hose is new, but I'm waiting a new PVC, next Monday it will come..

some guy put a 3speed A/T intake (i cant for life of may know what transmission is on your car,

The vitara is manual trasmission..

last last last, intake manifold cracked. (has to be if all the above do not leak air) the hard way.. but proven...

I have considered that possibility too..

but in this case its easy.
you did the tests. and you have a leak (vacuum leak) but we dont know why exactly
and like most leaks it will not get better, they get worse. mostly.

Yes, you told me that, is not easy to find them..


and if say you had a tiny, air leak, say this tiny crack in a hose that by fate seem not to get worse
the ISC will hide that error. and correct it, i can do that very easy, and duty rises above 50% is the only clue...... hidden from view.

i said all that because other dont wont to fix it ,just hide it.... and can be done for a while... if not excessive..... i think yours is excessive.
the engine sucks 400cc of air, every 180degress of crank rotation, somehow there is leak allowing that much air or 1/2.... and runs.... like magic.

Yes, "magic" that is the right wod in this case, you can see below why I say that..

for sure you are on track. (no pun)

please fill out your signature.... i have trouble keeping it in my old 68yo brain.... sorry.

You are still very yojung, my aunt has almost 95..
I 61, a boy like you, of course..

Vitara JLK Santana - G16A - 8 valves, doors?, 4wd? 3/4/5? speed transmission.


Yes, JLK Santana - G16A - 8 valves- 3 doors- 4wd - 5 speed - manual trasmission - A/C..


all hoses can be pinched.
except (2) the brake booster, it has a metal pipe and very hard hose. (so i CORK it,or use rubber stopper) remove cork restart , retest.

I'll do that test too, I'll block the nozzle where that booster hose is connected to the intake manifold ..


the map is also tricky if you pinch it the map can read 0" vacuum and engine goes way rich and slows.. fooling you.
so on the map sensor i never pinch that. hose. make sure the plenum side sucks air pulled a second, that hose is not cracked?, then make sure the map sensor is not cracked

I'll do it too, although that hose is new, and the mechac cheked that sensor too..

The plenum side sucks very well, that nozzle is not clogged..


i use my handy dandy hand vacuum tool and pump up by hand say 10 inches HG vacuum and see that it holds there.. ok ,NO leaks on the map side.
this is what i do... to find all air leaks, besides pinching.
in the end the "processes of elimination" proves what is bad, last , is a true manifold leak, gaskets or cracks. or even a loose manfold on the the.

But I don't have vacuum tool, anyway, all will depend what happen with the last changes you are going to know at once..

i skipped TV stuck open because its not. and is new.
a good mech , once the leaking air is seen.... all tests are like 1 hours work, blocking hoses etc. and working directly to the true cause.

That right, maybe he did that, but you still don't know that we have a misterious surprise in this case, wait a second I'll tell you right now..


and last ordering a new intake gasket , and he then does the text book is my manifold or head warped test.

Well, today I went to the mech with my tools to remove the new TBI to see if it has installed on the bottom its right gasket, then the mech told me he asked to the Land Sur 4X4 shop, if they had brought him the correct gasket to the new TBI, and they told that was the correct bottom gasket..
So the mech said me he will call to Santana foreman to have an appoinment to send him all OBD parameters and details about bad idle when start in hot with a new TBI, and the foreman will find the true problem then we know what exactly is happening, but that have to be the next Monday..

So I went at home, but because I was intrigate about if that gasket was wrong or not, I decided remove the TBI on my own..
So I saw that the ridht gasket was installed (you can see that work in the photo gallery), that gasket has three hole only, one is to the idle bleed. other to IAC and one more to coolant, not more, and the five holes are also blocked, you can see also in that photo the new gasket I bought three days ago, is the same, you can see that gasket in the second photo, still install in the TBI, where we can see the metal throttle too..

So, that bottom gasket was the correct, but because I have two old TBI I have one ISC because the otrer was cut and you have a photo of it, then I removed the new ISC and I installed the old ISC, then and to our surprise, the problem when start in hot ended for the moment..
You can see the video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDm4A3bE...e=youtu.be

I hope you can sse it..

Do you remember when I wanted to regulate ISC with a hex allen 4,5 milimeters ? Because you can regulate the old TBI with an allen 5 milimeters, but the new TBI hex is more small, but the mech told me 'don't touch it', and you told me that was very difficult to regulate ISC, and on the other hand I don't wanted to do that, but my intuition said me 'that hex is the true problem'..
But if that ISC came from Santana Factory calibrate, for what to move it? That was very reasonable, what to do then ?..
But inside me my intuition continue 'remove the silicone seal and turn it', but..
Blaise Pascal said "Our heart knows things that our mind don't know"..

Once installed the old TBI the vitara running very differnet, much better, of course, I did the true test in the fuel pump, when I had to start the engine in hot again, and it was as the vitara had made over the years, the video shows that start in hot..
Then, this morning I did a new air test, bloking with my hand the mean air entrance, and the engine stalls very fast, but after that test, I did the same air test but not by the mean entrance, but as you told me pinching ISC air hose, but in this case, I removed that air hose from ISC and bloked it in its end, then I blocked the ISC nozzle with my finger and with the other hand I closed the bleed gently, but the engine run very slowly but didn't stall..

So, Mein entrance blocked with my hand, the engine stall very fast..
Then, ISC air hose removed and blocked in its end, ISC nozzle blocked with my finger, and bleed closed to the end, the engine don't stall..
Perhaps, as you said PVC tiny air entering?..

So I went to the mech to tell him what happened, and he saw all about, he said maybe the ISC is calibrated in a differnet way, as a different dssign, then he told me 'come on Monday to regulate ISC with OBD to do duty cycle again, but with the new TBI after removed its silicone seal that come from the Santana..
Then, that mean those TBI DESIGN are from different model ? Because I saw a link gasket you sent me from TBI bottom and the vitara A/T has the same gasket than M/T..

The mech has two OBD, the old Santana and the OBD ||, but he's using the old one, he repaired many vitara with it..
I'll be there to see everything about..

Anyway, I'll see what happen after regulate ISC and seE also how the vitara running, and of course to pass the Technical Inspection C02..
That's all for the moment..

We are very near to discover the devil's assistent in this case..
You can see some new photos in the gallery, including "two little cows", to enjoy you with them..

We in touch and cheers!!

[fixkick]

my guess is the ISC has leakage paths that are different.
if have had many old one's that leaked horribly
and was just the rubber ring seat worn, so i see the 5mm hex so the spring just just a tiny bit more tight, and now it works like new. perfectly.
saving like $200 for the cost of a new one here.
I wonder if the Santana ISC or TB body, have some other deep hidden air paths. ?
That is correct. for mr, Pascal. trust nothing, and suspect all. even new parts can be bad or are upgrades?, that work differently.
I can hear your engine, it sounds very healthy, it's not misfiring,,,, at all.
and old TB has and Old center of body gaseket and that gasket for some odd reason loves to age, crack and suck on, and this happen as the bleed path.
this causes the TB to leak fresh air, and makes setting idle (and duty) very very hard. but yours is new, and not missing. or cracked.
we have no xray views of TB.
just this nice drawing, and shows no hidden fixed air bleeds.
this is the best drawing,,,, and is in the USA spec books.

---

you do Great work, dogmatic, and like the RCMP , "we always get our man.".. (or in this case, the leaks , reconciled)

---

i looked at your photos. nice high reso, photos, thanks ! very clear.
i see only one odd detail; the TV looks open too much to me, i see an air gap there, (ours don't have that large of gap)
maybe the Santana iSC is different and is tuned for the larger TV gap? or? not sure,
i re-read your text above.

---

stalls fast with old ISC.
so the new ISC is different, that begs the question of how and why?
1: the factory skipped the calibration.
2: or it has some bypass feature inside? un documented.
3: is bad. or defective some how?

the above, tells me the TV gap is not too excessive, if it stalls. (as seen in Gallery+actuators)
any good, ISC can open and run the engine ok with bleed.
and the hand over air horn test, stalling it.
wow, where in thee world is that ISC air coming (new iSC) from, like Phantom!

---

for sure you are on the right track,,
that hand or air horn test, is shocking, where is that air flowing? (before) with new ISC, we pinched the iSC, how on the world can the OLD ISC cure that...flow.
and more shocking, is why does the old ISC not stop that main air horn leak. very odd, this...
its like the new ISC has 2 air paths. but how?
very interesting all this....

---

ok see our stock TV plate. brass plate.





butter fly plate... its 99.9% closed. (iSC + bleed do all the air)


here is my best view. (a curved slot is ok or just a hole for the vac. accessory port)
seen many like this, its all good, gap at bore is almost touching but not. all USA TB. (made at CAMI Canada, or Awata Japan)

---

on ours, if the large (marked iac/bleed) hole on left , If we block that someway, the engine stalls.
the 400cc air suck can not suck past the fly plate. and stalls. each suck, (engine air pump)
how ever the bleed screw if unscrewed full might run the engine, with ISC blocked.
but that is how I find air leaks, with out smoke machines and spraying engine with dangerous liquid fuels. or the like.
once i cure the leaks, we can set duty cycle and it holds and works forever. (Pascal, permitting....lol)

---

keep in mind all this works at any altitude.
even on PIKES Peak here. 14,000 feet....
the ISC must open near 100% there, to even run at all.

or in Spain 11089 feet. Veleta, (highest in Europe) 3380m

---

in SouthAmerica there is one road at 5100meters. Abra Arcata is a high mountain pass.
we took a bus to Pastoruri Glacier:
5000m
and we had to use donkeys the last 2 miles. because if we tried to walk we fell down panting........very thin air there.
one of our most crazy trips. here.
http://i2.wp.com/farm7.staticflickr.com/...=640%2C480
my guess is the Santana would stall......?

check this out, feet .. OMG

---

bus was 200m lower...only.