Problem to start when the engine is hot

[fixkick]

the 80 HP engine is 38HP there, horse power.... wow.

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HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

[LuisCarlos]

I wonder if the Santana ISC or TB body, have some other deep hidden air paths. ?

I don't konw if there are other secret air paths, but when I did ISC air hose test, I didn't closed connection from crankcase to the horn, maybe the engine didn't stall for that, because some gases passed to the intake manifold, I'll do again the same test clossing that entrance..

I can hear your engine, it sounds very healthy, it's not misfiring,,,, at all.

Good news, thanks, I hear it in right condition too..

and old TB has and Old center of body gaseket and that gasket for some odd reason loves to age, crack and suck on, and this happen as the bleed path.
this causes the TB to leak fresh air, and makes setting idle (and duty) very very hard. but yours is new, and not missing. or cracked.
we have no xray views of TB.

Of course, we haven't that futuristic device..

just this nice drawing, and shows no hidden fixed air bleeds.
this is the best drawing,,,, and is in the USA spec books.

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Yes, it's very clear to see all about fuel and air system..

you do Great work, dogmatic, and like the RCMP , "we always get our man.".. (or in this case, the leaks , reconciled)

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i looked at your photos. nice high reso, photos, thanks ! very clear.
i see only one odd detail; the TV looks open too much to me, i see an air gap there, (ours don't have that large of gap)
maybe the Santana iSC is different and is tuned for the larger TV gap? or? not sure,

Well, that gap in throttle valve is because D/P is pressing it, I removed TBI without disconnect D/P, so that gap than you marked with anarrow is normal, as you konw too..
That photo is a bit blurry, sorry, I had to hold TBI in a awkward position..



stalls fast with old ISC.
so the new ISC is different, that begs the question of how and why?
1: the factory skipped the calibration.
2: or it has some bypass feature inside? un documented.
3: is bad. or defective some how?



Yes, at least its hex is different, and the first new TBI went back to Santana again thinking it had a malfunction, but the second new TBI that came had the same problem..
So I'll say to the mech to call to Santana telling them what happen about those new TBI, perhaps they will know exactly for what they are differnet..
I forgot to tell you that that Suzuki Santana made a limited number of that model, the mech told me that, and you can't maybe believe that, but I never saw other model like this, you can see in gallery how is the dashboard in that model..



Tomorrow as the mech said I'll take the vitara again to the workshop, at the moment the ISC is still installed, so I'll take also the new ISC because I prefer the mech remove the seal from the new ISC hex sealed with silicone, first, because new TBI is under warranty six months total, and second, because maybe he want to test old ISC to compare with new TBI or to test it in OBD..
Anyway, is better he make everything about..


any good, ISC can open and run the engine ok with bleed.
and the hand over air horn test, stalling it.
wow, where in thee world is that ISC air coming (new iSC) from, like Phantom!


I don't think so that new ISC is air leaks, I think that hex is not in a right calibration, but I think we know everything about that Phantom when the mech test the old and new ISC, that will be maybe tomorrow, maybe he'll call to Santana to be sure what to do..


When I installed the old ISC and I started the engine hte idle were unbalanced, but I used the hex allen 5 milimenters and turned gently that hex, so I got to regulate idle to 800 r.p.m that's all..

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for sure you are on the right track,,

I think that too

that hand or air horn test, is shocking, where is that air flowing?

In that test the engine stalled..
The engine didn't stalled whe I did ISC air hose pinched, and bleed closed, but I think was because hose from crankcase was still connected, but I'll do that test again..



and more shocking, is why does the old ISC not stop that main air horn leak. very odd, this...
its like the new ISC has 2 air paths. but how?
very interesting all this....

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Yes, is a Sherlock Holmes case hitout still resolved..

ok see our stock TV plate. brass plate.

That gasket is different, it has a bleed cannal that don't have the other gasket, but in the other gasket that holes are blocked too....


Sorry, I must to go at once, I'll continue on this page later..


butter fly plate... its 99.9% closed. (iSC + bleed do all the air)


here is my best view. (a curved slot is ok or just a hole for the vac. accessory port)
seen many like this, its all good, gap at bore is almost touching but not. all USA TB. (made at CAMI Canada, or Awata Japan)

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on ours, if the large (marked iac/bleed) hole on left , If we block that someway, the engine stalls.
the 400cc air suck can not suck past the fly plate. and stalls. each suck, (engine air pump)
how ever the bleed screw if unscrewed full might run the engine, with ISC blocked.
but that is how I find air leaks, with out smoke machines and spraying engine with dangerous liquid fuels. or the like.
once i cure the leaks, we can set duty cycle and it holds and works forever. (Pascal, permitting....lol)

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keep in mind all this works at any altitude.
even on PIKES Peak here. 14,000 feet....
the ISC must open near 100% there, to even run at all.

or in Spain 11089 feet. Veleta, (highest in Europe) 3380m

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in SouthAmerica there is one road at 5100meters. Abra Arcata is a high mountain pass.
we took a bus to Pastoruri Glacier:
5000m
and we had to use donkeys the last 2 miles. because if we tried to walk we fell down panting........very thin air there.
one of our most crazy trips. here.
http://i2.wp.com/farm7.staticflickr.com/...=640%2C480
my guess is the Santana would stall......?

check this out, feet .. OMG

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bus was 200m lower...only.

[fixkick]

ok my eyes are still good, DP holds it open that much... Thanks,

i forgot a test, on my iSC page
blow in the air nibble hose off, engine off,
you must not be able to blow.
in hand the 12vdc is not applied (or engine off)
the valve closes at least 99% gently. at zero voltage on coil.

make sure there are on funny bypass air holes seen in the ports. on base side.

is see you point not wanting to kill warranty, trying to adjust the ISC calibration screw.

if it does leak lots of air, as it seems,,,I wonder why Santana did that?
on ours
the isc is at 50% flow and the bleed provides all air (together) , to get the duty near 50%

no matter what , if the bleed gets you to 50% duty, its good to go....mostly...
the exception to that, is if there is a vacuum leak that is changing all the time, like a brake booster bad can do (cracked diaphragm)
seen cars you step on brake pedal and idle control is lost.
cheers and good luck.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='5025' dateline='1448719771']
my guess is the ISC has leakage paths that are different.
if have had many old one's that leaked horribly
and was just the rubber ring seat worn, so i see the 5mm hex so the spring just just a tiny bit more tight, and now it works like new. perfectly.
saving like $200 for the cost of a new one here.
I wonder if the Santana ISC or TB body, have some other deep hidden air paths. ?
That is correct. for mr, Pascal. trust nothing, and suspect all. even new parts can be bad or are upgrades?, that work differently.
I can hear your engine, it sounds very healthy, it's not misfiring,,,, at all.
and old TB has and Old center of body gaseket and that gasket for some odd reason loves to age, crack and suck on, and this happen as the bleed path.
this causes the TB to leak fresh air, and makes setting idle (and duty) very very hard. but yours is new, and not missing. or cracked.
we have no xray views of TB.
just this nice drawing, and shows no hidden fixed air bleeds.
this is the best drawing,,,, and is in the USA spec books.

---

you do Great work, dogmatic, and like the RCMP , "we always get our man.".. (or in this case, the leaks , reconciled)

---

i looked at your photos. nice high reso, photos, thanks ! very clear.
i see only one odd detail; the TV looks open too much to me, i see an air gap there, (ours don't have that large of gap)
maybe the Santana iSC is different and is tuned for the larger TV gap? or? not sure,
i re-read your text above.

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stalls fast with old ISC.
so the new ISC is different, that begs the question of how and why?
1: the factory skipped the calibration.
2: or it has some bypass feature inside? un documented.
3: is bad. or defective some how?

the above, tells me the TV gap is not too excessive, if it stalls. (as seen in Gallery+actuators)
any good, ISC can open and run the engine ok with bleed.
and the hand over air horn test, stalling it.
wow, where in thee world is that ISC air coming (new iSC) from, like Phantom!

---

for sure you are on the right track,,
that hand or air horn test, is shocking, where is that air flowing? (before) with new ISC, we pinched the iSC, how on the world can the OLD ISC cure that...flow.
and more shocking, is why does the old ISC not stop that main air horn leak. very odd, this...
its like the new ISC has 2 air paths. but how?
very interesting all this....

---

ok see our stock TV plate. brass plate.





butter fly plate... its 99.9% closed. (iSC + bleed do all the air)

Yes, almost 100 % closed..


here is my best view. (a curved slot is ok or just a hole for the vac. accessory port)
seen many like this, its all good, gap at bore is almost touching but not. all USA TB. (made at CAMI Canada, or Awata Japan)


The gasket is different because that vacuum port channel, but the effect is the same..

---

on ours, if the large (marked iac/bleed) hole on left , If we block that someway, the engine stalls.
the 400cc air suck can not suck past the fly plate. and stalls. each suck, (engine air pump)
how ever the bleed screw if unscrewed full might run the engine, with ISC blocked.

Yes, it ccould breathe for that bleed scerw..

but that is how I find air leaks, with out smoke machines and spraying engine with dangerous liquid fuels. or the like.
once i cure the leaks, we can set duty cycle and it holds and works forever. (Pascal, permitting....lol)

Today, I'll do again that ISC air hose test, and bleed screw closed gently, but with the crankcase hose open and the entrance to the horn interrupted..

keep in mind all this works at any altitude.
even on PIKES Peak here. 14,000 feet....
the ISC must open near 100% there, to even run at all.

or in Spain 11089 feet. Veleta, (highest in Europe) 3380m

---

My city Sevilla is at 7 meters above sea level..

and we had to use donkeys the last 2 miles. because if we tried to walk we fell down panting........very thin air there.
one of our most crazy trips. here.

I like donkeys and those snowy mountains..
Nice trip..

http://i2.wp.com/farm7.staticflickr.com/...=640%2C480
my guess is the Santana would stall......?


I don't know, but because this model is very odd, is possible that it continue running in that level..
As a Phantom..

check this out, feet .. OMG

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5019 meters, so high to some people is difficult to breathe at that level..


You can see a photo about dashboard in this vitara model, I never saw none like this..
And my first car Citroen 11, it was the first front-whell drive, I bought it in 1976, it had in that moment almos 30 years but circulating in Spain only, but I'didn't konw how long it had been circulating in France..
Perhaps, it was furty years or more about, I started learning mechanics with it..
That place is Sierra Nevada, 11414 feet, its engine didn't stalls, but was vert difficult to climb, that road has about 8530 feet, was in 1978..
I'm standing on the left side and the blus cap..
Sorry to insert that photo in gallery, I don't know how to insert here..
But I'll try how to do it..

bus was 200m lower...only.

Was very easy climb there..

OK, I'll go to the workshop now, I'll tell you what happened in the next chapter..

Cheers!!

[fixkick]

it's amazing the places a car can go, extreme ... and the EFI handles all that (HP (KW) drops like stone)
but idle controls work. fine and fuel mixed perfectly...

your Santana isc is odd duck.. (walks like a duck must be duck , lol)
not sure why or how? just odd.
but if you can dial in 50% duty, it's good. if it regulates ok.
im testing the $25 meter with my bench tests below. and works great. (ive test others, and failed, like the harbor freight meter, that promise this, and fails)
this one works 100% ok.

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/e...iew&id=204


your engine stalls, ISC pinched, so the ISC is leaking air, (well that is its job to leak air) but if duty cycle can not be set to 50 % and hold 800 rpm there is some kind of leak. (the bleed screw even cause this. if opened fully, or closed fully, but in your case you cant get it to 50%)

the scan tool will also allow you do set it to 50% turn the bleed to 50 % done.
i say all that, as i really dont know what your mech has for tools or his steps.

[LuisCarlos]

it's amazing the places a car can go, extreme ... and the EFI handles all that (HP (KW) drops like stone)
but idle controls work. fine and fuel mixed perfectly...

your Santana isc is odd duck.. (walks like a duck must be duck , lol)


At least it's a odd duck it could have been a odd crow..

not sure why or how? just odd.
but if you can dial in 50% duty, it's good. if it regulates ok.
im testing the $25 meter with my bench tests below. and works great. (ive test others, and failed, like the harbor freight meter, that promise this, and fails)
this one works 100% ok.

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/e...iew&id=204


your engine stalls, ISC pinched, so the ISC is leaking air, (well that is its job to leak air) but if duty cycle can not be set to 50 % and hold 800 rpm there is some kind of leak. (the bleed screw even cause this. if opened fully, or closed fully, but in your case you cant get it to 50%)

the scan tool will also allow you do set it to 50% turn the bleed to 50 % done.
i say all that, as i really dont know what your mech has for tools or his steps.

Yes, I know about to do duty cycle, of course, but until we get the true ISC duck we have to wait to do duty cycle..
I'll tell you what happened yesterday and today in this Venezuelan endless idle saga..

Yesterday, I went to the workshop to remove seal to the new ISC, because I prefered the mech do it, so he removed that seal from the Factory, it wasn't made of sylicone but other sealed system, it broke apart.. But when he tried to turn it with hex allen 4 milimeters was very hard to turn it, then the mech told me 'I don't like to forcing it'..
Then, he call to the head of workshop in Santana, but he was in a military meeting, so his secretary told him to call to Santana on Friday, e.i tomorrow..

But I discovered another samall duck hidden in the ISC, it has different numbering fron the Factory..
The old one ISC that is working very well is marked with the number -1, and above of it with the number 35..
The new one ISC is marked with the number -3, and above of it 17 16..
You can see them in the photo gallery..

I think, maybe that new ISC belong to other model, 16 v, A/T or Vitara 2000..

So tomorrow I'll go to the workshop again to see what the head of workshop Santana said about..
I told to the mech because the TBI is under warranty 'bring a new TBI or a new ISC to that Vitara model'..

He said the head of Santana is his friend and he's a very good person and he's very diligent to do everything in this kinds of issues..

Well, that's all for the moment, I marvel at how much patience you have with this endless case..
I hope tomorrow we'll see a light at the end of the tunnel..
I hope not appear a small chicken duck's friend..

Thanks a loy for your patience with me..
Salude a su esposa de mi parte..

Cheers!!..

[fixkick]

maybe? , clean the old ISC and run that?
it can be adjusted, so if the valve seat is worn, we put just a tiny bit more spring tension with the 5mm screw.
and then works great.
wish you well and your car.
happy holidays/

[fixkick]

revised
http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/fastfix.html

[LuisCarlos]

maybe? , clean the old ISC and run that?

I cleaned it before install..

it can be adjusted, so if the valve seat is worn, we put just a tiny bit more spring tension with the 5mm screw.

Yes, I adjusted it because after installed it the idle was very high, so with 5 mm I turned a little the hex and the idle was fixed at "800 r.p.m"..

and then works great.


Yes, as if the vitara was new, although it need to do the duty cycle..
Yesterday, the mech call to the head of Santana and gave to him all about rare duck idle, the head will call him next Wednesday, because here in Spain we have some days off, Monday and Tuesday, so only rest wait..
And rest all of us of this TV idle serial..

wish you well and your car.
happy holidays/


And to you and to your wife happy hollidays too..

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[quote='fixkick' pid='5132' dateline='1449241384']
revised
http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/fastfix.html

I'll study it very well, of course..
Perhaps I'm going to nedd to learn about to do duty cycle by myself, so I'll buy a meter the same that you have..

Thanks, and we in touch after some days, I'm going to a small village and there is not connection to Internet to my laptop, I'll come to Sevilla on next Monday..

Cheers!!

[fixkick]

happy Holidays to you and family.!