1997 vitara

[1972]

hi, i have a suzuki vitara 1997 manual g16b, my car is running super rich and i think is running in limp mode. I have replaced the fuel injectors, the fuel pressure reulator ( the old one had fuel coming out the vac hose) , replaced the ecu and oxygen sensor. still nothing changed. Removed the exhaust mainifold and found the no 4 pipe cracked, almost completly around, replaced with extractors. changed plugs, leads, dizzy cap and rotor. checked timing with freeze pin. there are no diagnostic codes. checked egr it was clean. could anyone have any suggestions what else colud be making the car run in limp home mode. The car just started running the way it is. thanks

[fixkick]

hi, i have a suzuki vitara 1997 manual g16b, my car is running super rich and i think is running in limp mode. I have replaced the fuel injectors, the fuel pressure reulator ( the old one had fuel coming out the vac hose) , replaced the ecu and oxygen sensor. still nothing changed. Removed the exhaust mainifold and found the no 4 pipe cracked, almost completly around, replaced with extractors. changed plugs, leads, dizzy cap and rotor. checked timing with freeze pin. there are no diagnostic codes. checked egr it was clean. could anyone have any suggestions what else colud be making the car run in limp home mode. The car just started running the way it is. thanks

so key on ,  CEL lamp glows.?
the start the engine, and cell lamp goes out?. yes, good, no bad.
if no bad, scan the PCM/ECU eva the 16pin DLC connector at right knee location, all USA cars have this connector, this is a USA car right? unstated.
there are many causes of Rich running.  here is list.
1: yes in limphome, scan it to see what is dead.,  always the first thing to do/
2:o2  SENSOR DEAD (crack above #4 causes this ) but you can unplug it and see if engine runs better, if yes, O2 is bad, but you didnt scan the PCM yet
O2 is new,now so.. checked off.
3: top failure is FPR bad fuel pressure  regulator,most of them this old are bad or close.  fuel pressure now super high and runs rich,  also test fuel pressure first before blaming injectors, or pump.   if the pump shunt test passed fully test the FPR< key pressure and idle pressure must be 6PSI different,  lower at idle.

fuel pressure spec is here.
factory spec.
shunt test is about 55 to 60 PSI, this is with hose to FPR blocked and pump driving directly to only one think the pressure test, keep test short time.

yours was bad , vac hose leaks fuel is bad but getting a good new FPR can be hard, or using the wrong one, so we always check pressure proving we DID THE JOB RIGHT. who knows now with fake parts sold.?
off my pump page. pressure.
96-98 16v FSM specifications Rail  pressure:  (pg.6E3-A-36-37) 

Static:      36-43 PSI, keyon, not started ( you may have to key on 3 times to build enough pressure, pump runs on 3 seconds)
Running: 30-37 PSI , idling.
Residual :25 PSI , after 1min.  drop test. (key just turned off , time to drop PSI) or better ,more time is better.

the FPR is vacuum operated and must work right or no ECU can injector correctly out of  spec.  
redux 1: you be in Australia. not USA we are USA. and you do not have a OBD2 car, unless bought here and shipped to your country. as some have done. the TAB below tells me what you have.
market E24 is Australia.


is your car outside USA or bought new outside, if there is no hood sticker and only firewall plate to drivers left it is not USA car.
like this car.
they even made Santana Vitara's in Europe. and many more else where, and very different some.  (and is not , redux2)



if outside USA , use the DLC jumper wire test, diagnostic, ("test switch terminal"  code 12 means ok. other codes are all mostly limphome.
https://fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html
USA cars are OBD2 and scan tools work on our cars all do.

no scan tool OTC works on any pre  96 in USA. none.(over the counter) only the jumper wire test. here. and same in other counties, just a jumper. works.
https://fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html

[fixkick]

on old cars  expect more than one problem.
Bad thermostat tops list,  must attain 180f or more and old short drive ,82C,  hot coolant fast, or it is BAD and will waste lots of fuel if bad.
"I have replaced the fuel injectors" (more than 1 means)
so this is 16valve 4 injector MPI,  multipoint injection
so has mAF sensor for sure.

we clean our maf and test it fully with a volt meter.
our MAF sensor it no where like what is used in EU, Europe. 
Maf Stuck high or low  will cause over injection.  (the too much air lie ,causes too much fuel that simple)
too low trigger limphome and MAF emulation and sucks tons of fuel in this case.
check key on and idle voltage the gun throttle hard to see if  output goes near 3v.
never trust ECU to tell you if MAF is good or bad.  manually test it easy with DMM voltmeter even  $20 meter works here,

other lies the ECU many not see or know.(DTC finds only dead things)
ECT reads low or in Europe they sell wrong ECT . lots there. none here. are wrong. OTC. (due to vast engine types used in EU)
IAT , is not it, will not cause this. it is only for super small trim, fuel, base on air temps.
O2 , on ours we can scan O2 and plot graph it to see it swing .1 to .9vdc ( it must  swing and not be stuck or offset to zero volts
MAF reads wrong, use a voltmeter,  it is a simple analog meter, not some wild  PWM thing seen on other cars , it has simple output DC.
TPS, this sensor must not be bad, (scans bad) if does limphome is NOW.  it is  just  a pot.(var. resistor) about 1v to 4v in the TP pin.
if the TP output pin does 1v at idle, hot. then the low end , then key off and go key on only no start, and advance the Throttle by hand and see SMOOTH
output from 1 to to about 4v with NO GLITCHES.  ( a linear smooth increase  never dips to 0v or 5v ever, good TPS is it)

i did not mention spark it is all fresh parts. but misfiring matters if heard./felt.
do spark tips look ok not green or soaking in oil.?  spark plugs talk,  "SIGNS" my guess (sooty) blackish for rich. but IDK what is there.


most MAF's fail dead or weak but there is always those that defy average fails . test it. is best, not hard to do. 
most get coked up with fumes from cars in front of you  the hot wire inside is nasty dirty, we use maf cleaner on it, plastics safe.
and from 6_+ inches away, spray, stop soad time, 1min or so, repeat 3 times, now clean do not damage the hot wire with any kind of force. (too close)
some <MAF go dead, and DTC code for that and now runs rick due to ECU EMULATING a dead MAF. and is super rich now. or PCM tells it is dead.
why not use your , DLC jumper clip for flash codes. this must be done in Australia (outside USA for sure)

you can not do this but shows how good OBD2 is even the first suz made with this.
here is my MAF 1996,  drive and plotted, OBD2.  it follows the TPS output closely,  USA cars OBD2 very good car.
those peaks are me shifting and accel. hard. 
A key sensor here for MPI, the MAF..  horz. is time, vertical is AIR MASS.
bad thermostat here takes 10 miles to get to 180f. too old and sluggish, replaced next day me.  and sucked fuel running too cold.

[fixkick]

now OBD1, non USA cars, some facts market 24 you, see . line 1,2,3, only) redux 2.

1: OBD1 is never plublished by Suzuki ever, so no scan tool here OTC can scan any OBD1 by suzuki 89-95
2: OBD1 only does blink codes 12 = ok good.
3: Suzuki used  TECH1 scan tool in there shops but are all gone now, worn to dust,
4: USA cars are all OBD2, and all modern scan tools here all work in these cars.  Innova tools all work for sure. I have 3 models here all work.
5: back in 1996/7 some tools did not work but where junk then,  long long ago cured and is a historical fact , now. avoid tools that old. win.
6: even the most cheap ELM tool works even $20 tool , on this car USA. 96+  even the first one made works. for sure top makers here.

our OBD2 jack is here (usa)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ODB2/OBD-facts.html

any of this work USA.  top grade too

tops in software. wow.
https://www.palmerperformance.com/hardware/index.php

https://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/pc-based/

[fixkick]

my bad your IP shows
Country Australia (bingo)
Region Sydney (approx) made fuzzy on purpose by me.

so is my wild guess above TAG photo, TAG is Australia. is hit, 1 in 53 markets and I guess right. and not now it is right, after IP scans.
you have an OBD1 car there.
that year.
use the jumper , this is a 1st things first act. (all cars Scan first, the read TSB, then work) 1,2,3.
this car has either MAF or VAF , hot wire, MAF or vane plunger looking VAF, (suzuki calls them tYPE engine, 1,2,3,4, etc.) lots there are. the too sensors can not be interchanged.
4 pin or 6 pin DLC on all cars , most are near battery some just behind, right front head lamp. and some late are or left (drivers perspective) STRUT tower left and tad lower.
the DLC has blue yellow wire (yellow is stripe not dots)
DLC has rubber cap. off this and use the jumper. go black ground wire in same DLC.
find the DLC first, I think you have, with freeze jumper but IDK. for sure.

insert the jumper see CEL lap blink out codes, 12 is good.

https://fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html

Suzuki moved the DCL all over the place, my guess Hiroshima pay back LOL
.

[1972]

thanks fixkick, yes mate im in australia, sorry i should of said that. i have a fcar scan tool, it shows no codes, and now i know why the odb2 wont connect, thanks for that info. I bridged the diagnostic terminals behind d/s front headlight right hand side. the only code that come up was 12, the fsm said this was normal. the engine light comes on the dash on ignition and switches of after the car starts. i have ordered a efi fuel pressure gauge. The fpr is genuine from suzuki. Ill start testing what you have told me. thats alot of info to go thru, thank you again, ill reply when after i do some testing.

[fixkick]

thanks fixkick, yes mate im in australia, sorry i should of said that. i have a fcar scan tool, it shows no codes, and now i know why the odb2 wont connect, thanks for that info. I bridged the diagnostic terminals behind d/s front headlight right hand side. the only code that come up was 12, the fsm said this was normal. the engine light comes on the dash on ignition and switches of after the car starts. i have ordered a efi fuel pressure gauge. The fpr is genuine from suzuki. Ill start testing what you have told me. thats alot of info to go thru, thank you again, ill reply when after i do some testing.

For you and others on topic OBD2 blues: (dreams) I lost my notes on this ,but here it is... again for sure this link below for YOUR country.
no tool works,  suzuki never published there pesky OBD1 protocol.   same story for 31 years, (btw I know this secret and made my own tool) 
it is because your car is not made in USA, only usa cars this year, have OBD2 support. (our invention then)
IIRC<(google this) Australia did not mandate our OBD2 until 2007,  ( 11 years later took ours and modified it and bingo) most countries did the same thing on different latter years  , you do not have OBD2, period , unless firewall tag is NOT E24,  I can not see your tag. so.... IDK.
first car in your country to be OBD2 is 2000 year,  Chrysler Cruiser.(some  may vary by engine option size,type.)

ODDITY 1: ( fools the world this anyone would, and sure natural  to do that) (connector conundrums)
yes I am fully aware of Australian cars, and that some have the connector that is 16 pins and is 100% same size as OBD2 cars here, but is not OBD2.
it is wired to OBD1 ECU, and is not OBD2 at all, in fact the 12 blinks prove no  OBD2 exists.  12 = OBD1 only, hard proof. OBD2 has no CODE12, ever.
ok now we have full information.
many tool sellers list suzuki but in the manual shows, not this year. even our $5,000 tool here does not do this car. 

---

RICH RUNNING causes, all.: (I will try my best)


So FPR is new and real.  so pressures can not be wrong wow yes they can be too high, well like of you hit a rock or tree stump offroading and smacked that
FPR return line ,bingo line crushed and fuel pressure 50 psi. dead to nuts wrong, and will be rich, meters works best diagnosing all cars made.


runs rich, the list of causes NOW are way less,
so the cam timing is not wrong, most are this old the cam, timing belt slipped.  ( like zillion post on this world wide, just the belt , ignored by many)
the way to prove that  easy besides eyes on belt and cog wheel marks.

is compression test,
180PSI is good,  16v runs this high, at sea level, I bet you are. ( my page as altitude corrections) test done with throttle blocked open 1/2 to full. never at idle angle.
90 is bad,  90 is common as the engine wants to retard grossly with loose belt. or shredded belt. so compression tops the list on this car every 100km.
this is the first thing we check for. (cars old lack service, and this fails lots)

Next up is that lower crank pulley, 17mm headed big bolt NOT  at spec 94FT/lbs.  per the TSB 1996 (retroactive and after)


Too rich list:
Tbelt slip ,compression test fails. all 4 fail. low. of one fails only, then bingo. that too.
MAF stuck high , simple volt meter test.
code 12, OBD1 means only no sensors 100% dead, it only warns you of total failures. unlike far better OBD2 one can even scan all sensors in OBD2.
So that means working on OBD1 cars we work blinded. (using hand tools to make up for OBD2 loss , meters and such.)
Rich O2 sensor bad, fixed.
Rich O2 lies, exhaust port cracked #4 tube as all did, and fixed.
spark plugs gapped (all new) to 0.028") not 0.045 as came in silly NGK box  .  0.71mm is spec. metric gap this is NOT HIGH ENERGY ignition at all.
new spark plugs ,hv wires, cap and rotor
distributor not re-timed to a bad CAM belt slipped timing  (2 wrongs do not make a right ) "seen it done and cry"

Fuel pressure too high, I bet not as the FPR is new and SUZUKI actual not china cloned knockoff (I always look)
The ECU bad needs new large CAPs in side called a Re_CAP job, very common and if Rubicon caps oops, those love to fail.
ECT reads wrong , on hot engine  tested, we pull its conn, (unlocks first) and reads 300ohms,  if wrong here, the thermostat is bad.
In Europe they sell 3 ECT 1 right 2 wrong, tricky to buy right one, and not get wrong. (not an issue in USA ever, 1 engine here 1 stat period G16 and one j18)

the thermostat on this car must have 96+ rated stat, with surround rubber ring, TSB never paper gasket as see 1992 and older.
if wrong the thermostat never works right,  it floats in the 4mm rim edge and cause water temps to be wild. never allow this.
if the water temp shows 180f (82c)(IR GUN tool) then the ECT does not agree, that means the ECT is bad, (or water levels too low and ECT always lies if too low.
that ends Tstat worry there,
I thank this list is full for rich. (hope)

EVIDENCE matters: (good bad or ugly all matter and for sure me not driving the  car)
Does the car run ok at all speeds, has full power, just poor MPG< (poor fuel economy)?
what other evidences is there for rich,
smells rich?.black or gray clouds of smoke,
see spark tips black
CAT converter glows red hot and not CAT melts inside and engine power is low or worse. (and finally will not start or stalls)
engine stalls rich. (limphome is top cause of this)
engine power lacks.
gross spark misfiring heard or felt or seen at idle gross engine shaking?

over injection  rich (discounting bad spark) Macro list:
is caused by:

• ECU bad inputs.
  
• and fuel pressure out  of spec. (FPR or clogged return line)
  
• Injectors leak. (no they are new)
  
• or bad engine. (cam timing or compression lost) (Cat melted, burned valves i head) TBelt slips. crank cog key front wrecked.
  
• or even a bad ECU, (last to blame) recap it?
  

here is  how to get the right thermostat, with rubber ring, 4mm lip and 5mm think ring seal. (date is USA introduction dates)
all ours are 4mm in year 1996 up, 1996 is all 16valves and all are 4mm lipped. if not done right engine can run cold. (leaks inside +chaos)

[fixkick]

we can work rich cars backwards 2 ways,  diagnosis is not one (method)
1: using 4 gas analyzers you do not have.  (we tap the exhaust header adding gas test port) and then work the problem from this Angle.
or.
2: using a scan tool and monitoring the 02 sensor , even plotted, (your tool can not do that only  the Tech1 tool , 31 years old today is defective from age and not sold at all.
what we do with a real scan tool is plot the O2 sensor. (as done and seen all all 96' + and newer cars here, or 2007 in your country)
it must swing, the O2 must swing or the ECU is not in Closed loop mode.
if not in closed loop mode that means fueling rates are out of control
The ECU is not in control now. even with 180f coolant at spec and ETC shows same.
this discovery leads us to finding the cause, true cause,'
we even do tricks, like forcing fuel pressure low too low to see of closed loop wakes up. or force too high fuel pressures.
trick #2 is adding illegal air. (air leaks behind the maf are illegal and causes lean out. (illegal means UN METEREd AIR, as in fooling the mAF)
ASE school teaches all that. and more. (we can test every sensor to be sure  they work this is but 1.)

see here what you can;t see this is the suzuki OBD1, tables inside the ECU.

https://fixkick.com/ECU/Tech1/full_scan2.html

see parameter 11, (closed loop status) and fuel trim, note that is what you seek. (O2 readings and trim)
p10 can be plotted for O2  actions,  sensor 02 swings. .1 to .9v.

here are the hacking tools

https://fixkick.com/hacking/hacked/addre...acked.html


if still  available. and by country. talk to them about  Australia first.  (your ECU has unique  ID codes and matters !)
One problem is  the ECT is not the same in all countries, and OBD1 scanners may show wrong ECT readings, so we aware of that.... many did. even TECH1.



here is me doing that. o2 sensors do not swing just by themselves, no.  this is the ECU hunting (servo tech) to find the perfect Air fuel mixture 14.7:1
The swing is ECU hunting mixture rates, at hot idle and steady cruise, (02 is off line cold or engine accelerating goes rich then "12:1"~~~)
this actions proves closed loop works right. for sure full swings. (no offsets and not stuck.)
uSA 96 sidekick(vitara)G16b. this is the goal when MPG fails. (rich burn stuck)  if the O2 stuck a 0volts ECU goes rich, exhaust cracks do 0v. and rich. near.by.
it can swing 6 times a second on fresh O2 sensors. they last 100k miles.par.  (this is 02 scan mode just  that only) graph mode. a $40 tool. here

[1972]

iv done a compression test cold 180 185 throttle wide open. check valve lash all good. i have replaced the timing belt (gates) water pump crank key and timing cog and crank bolt, tightned to fsm spec. i checked today just to make sure its still timed correctlt. my scan tool can read live data etc, but now i know why i cant switch to obd2, it says ecu connection broken, thanks for that other wise i would still be scratching my head, Ill definitely get underneath and have a look at the fuel lines, i know i smashed the rear gear box cross member mount,  again !. i have also replaced the fuel filter. im waiting on the fuel pressure tester to arrive. ill disconnect the fuel return line aswell to see if its blocked to. i did notice that when ignition is turned on there is a pressure whining noise which gets louder before fpr cuts in. its coming from the engine area. the car is idling terrible and is slow to rev. once above 3000rpm it starts to smooth out but not free reving if you know what i mean. the spark plug gap here 1.0 / 1.1 mm our no 1 igition lead on distributor is at 11 o clock not 1 o clock like the usa as i noticed on your specs. There is no cat i checked when fitting the headers, looks like the previous owner knocked it out. thanks again your a wealth of knowledge

[fixkick]

iv done a compression test cold 180 185 throttle wide open. check valve lash all good. i have replaced the timing belt (gates) water pump crank key and timing cog and crank bolt, tightned to fsm spec. i checked today just to make sure its still timed correctly. my scan tool can read live data etc, but now i know why i cant switch to obd2, it says ecu connection broken, thanks for that other wise i would still be scratching my head, Ill definitely get underneath and have a look at the fuel lines, i know i smashed the rear gear box cross member mount,  again !. i have also replaced the fuel filter. im waiting on the fuel pressure tester to arrive. ill disconnect the fuel return line as well to see if its blocked to. i did notice that when ignition is turned on there is a pressure whining noise which gets louder before fpr cuts in. (FPR works the second pump turns on)
its coming from the engine area. the car is idling terrible(hot and cold?) and is slow to rev. once above 3000rpm it starts to smooth out but not free revving if you know what i mean.(I do) the spark plug gap here 1.0 / 1.1 mm our no 1 ignition lead on distributor is at 11 o clock not 1 o clock like the usa as i noticed on your specs. (timing light work here. shows timed ok) -5Deg BTDC? or spec,
'There is no cat i checked when fitting the headers, looks like the previous owner knocked it out. thanks again your a wealth of knowledge

great come back thanks. your welcome always.:
yes the whinning is the  3 second fuel pump prime. that makes starting so much better and longer battery life.
always set gap to .7 the lower spec, after all spark is weak and gaps wear wide, so lower spec is best,  always.  not acause here, but needs fix later.

the whining sound is in the engine bay?  that is odd and key on. no noise can come from there just keyon, (got cruise control motor up front? and cruise throttle cable?) it try to learn location, (2 man test if needed) one with cardboard tube to ear moved around engine bay.
cab fan blower on or off?

windshield washer stuck on.  hummm odd that,  the ISC buzzes at 200 times second, most folks can not hear it but it does buzz. (1989/90 love to make huge noise on ISC worn out) there should be no buzz.... ever clean the ISC?>

won't idle and I bet spark tips are carbon'ed up black.  rich as a pig this.
key on fuel pressure must be 36 to 43 (if 50,55 or 60 then the return line is smashed flat or clogged up. do tests with gas cap on then off, worn caps  are HELL.

Static:      36-43 PSI, keyon, not started ( you may have to key on 3 times to build enough pressure, pump runs on 3 seconds)

Running: 30-37 PSI , idling. not the 6 psi drop! this is key factor to make EFI run right 16v MPI only.
when attempting WOT , (wide open throttle) PSI will try to reach key on spec, but not make it, fully. 35psi? wot?
all fuel pressure  are vacuum controlled (aggressive on MPI)
The FPR adjust for 2 things engine load (vacuum) and altitude (both)at the same time.

to be a problem at idle PSI would be over 37psi.  mine was 30 idle.(500ft alt, or zero)
the higher you go in altitude the pressure drops, or EFI floods fuel.
I think they meant  static range, is high at sea level and low at 15,000 feet, highest road is 18,000,  Napal? that is 30 PSI keyon at 15k feet alt.
key point is when driving fuel pressure is 30 to 36psi,  this fact keep the injector flowing correctly, and if wrong the ECU is clueless to cure  that.
Old FPR like to leak fuel(vac port) or stick or both,  this old and can be a hair puller. if true. (not you )
Take the return line off and blow air in to line gas cap off to  test or clear the line.

my 96 did this MPI , actual data mine.

what the FPR really does is keeps fuel pressure across the injector the same at all times, and locations. "differential pressure" see?
if not done right, at 15,000(4500meters) altitude, the injector floods too much fuel.  if fuel pressure is constant say at 36psi,  flood it will.
pressure is only constant if not driving  and not changing altitude and foot off the throttle. (move throttle changes) per above.