Suzuki Swift T3 conversion - engine no start

[t3tom]

Hi, I know this post is not about a Sidekick, but I found this site very helpful in explaining EFI and fuel systems.

I am helping a friend with his 1992 Suzuki Swift GA, which had been converted to use a 1991 Sprint Turbo engine. It has not been running for some time.

Actions to date:
(1) Fuel pump and fuel filter new/replaced. 35+ psi at fuel rail during ignition start on - 3 second test.
(2) Battery voltage good 12.8V no load, 11V during cranking.
(3) Fuel injectors tested for fuel delivery/spray off car test.
(4) Car's ECU was tested on another running Sprint Turbo 3 car. Passed run test.
(5) Spark test at plug. Initial test showed spark present at plugs. Recent retest shows no spark.
(6) Noid test: Noid light flashes only once during each cranking cycle test. What condition would cause this?
(7) Ground connections checked
(8) Harness wiring has been checked. In particular, FI signal wires and igniter wires to ECU appear correct.
(9) Would like to swap (external) firewall mounted igniter and ignition coil from a G16A 16V Swift sedan, in order to rule out these components contributing to the no start condition. Would these G16 parts be compatible with the igniter and coil used on the Sprint Turbo G10T? The physical appearance of these parts are similar but they have different part numbers.

Could you offer suggestions/advice?.

[fixkick]

Hi, I know this post is not about a Sidekick, but I found this site very helpful in explaining EFI and fuel systems.

first off Im not sure what converted means?, (total swaps, or , actually attempting to move only turbo parts 1 by 1?)
2nd located in what country?

I am helping a friend with his 1992 Suzuki Swift GA, which had been converted to use a 1991 Sprint Turbo engine. It has not been running for some time.
what was moved ? engine , all harnesses, and ECU, ?
does it run on test fuel? No, im sure its flooding.
The flash codes from ECU show code 12? key and after cranking for 5 full seconds?? (insert the diagnostic jumper now, and see WHAT's UP doc)


Actions to date:
(1) Fuel pump and fuel filter new/replaced. 35+ psi at fuel rail during ignition start on - 3 second test.
(2) Battery voltage good 12.8V no load, 11V during cranking.
(3) Fuel injectors tested for fuel delivery/spray off car test. (ah, its MPI engine most are not then)
(4) Car's ECU was tested on another running Sprint Turbo 3 car. Passed run test. (VERY GOOD)
(5) Spark test at plug. Initial test showed spark present at plugs. Recent retest shows no spark. (and timed correctly? using timing light)?


(6) Noid test: Noid light flashes only once during each cranking cycle test. What condition would cause this?
1 flash, for 300 turns a minute? thats 5 turns a second , cranking, and lots of flashing. 4x5 is 20 flashes in 1 second, 1 flash ever 180degr, of crank rotation, but on this engine its gang fired cranking, so flashes all 4 at once i think. for sure the distributor is timed wrong.
do the ecu Diag mode cranking, see if code 41 or 42?
wrong rotor in distrib. one of those POS china rotors that fit 3 ways?
wrong distrib, (there are 3 or 4 types, per G10,G13 and G16.) Standalone spark dizzy, ECU CMP fired and turbo knock versions.... yah can mix them.




(7) Ground connections checked
(8) Harness wiring has been checked.
In particular, FI signal wires and igniter wires to ECU appear correct. but are these parts, all from a turbo car, this harness?
(9) Would like to swap (external) firewall mounted igniter and ignition coil from a G16A 16V Swift sedan, in order to rule out these components contributing to the no start condition. Would these G16 parts be compatible with the igniter and coil used on the Sprint Turbo G10T?
The physical appearance of these parts are similar but they have different part numbers. (so does this mean car body has non TURBO coil and ignitor?)
I'm not sure, what country car and parts in car? USA? or?
Im not sure at all what was swapped.
pretend body of car is missing (all sheet metal gone), and only rolling chassis is there, and all electrics there, and then parts moved , which parts? moved.
what was changed. there.?

Could you offer suggestions/advice?.

did you check spark directly at the coil. not drib.
move a spark plug and wire HV to the coil, and crank with spark shell grounded, it must flash fast. and gaps are tighter on most turbos.
my be.... (due to huge combustion pressures in turbo)

my guess, is you dont know this.:
1; timing lights work , cranking as does setting timing.
2: ;and that the ECU diagnosis works cranking too,, 5 sec. rule... (FSM shows crank spin counts, impossible for humans to count it ) so 5sec. rule. works.
the ECU will tell you if the (for example) if the CMP misfires 1 in 10 times.

what engine is this? G what? G16? or G10 3cyl turbo?
so the car had a running engine before the "conversion"
and now the new ECU dont spark. (lots of reasons, does car have tachometer?, does it move 2 or 3 ticks up scale cranked? (says ignitor is firing)


this is all about spark,. Dead spark or timed grossly wrong, or distrib parts wrong.
CMP issues.

if car is USA version, be nice to know that ,as we have schematics, on our cars.
and can look at them and see how these parts vary..

[fixkick]

sold under 11 name plates, world wide, (Cultas is base name)
sprints sold by that name in USA< or in Europe.
chevy swift
and geo metro here.
my guess its car is G10 turbo, swaps. of some kind.

[fixkick]

sprint data
wiki tell me only
Turbocharged versions of the 1.0-liter three-cylinder engine were available in the Turbo Sprint in both the United States and Canada.
Sprint is a Chev name and only in N.America. so, that is my one clue. as is G10 clue.

[fixkick]

the next questions.
my guess the Chev sprint ECU, is it from a chevy sprint, uses the same ecu that SUZUKI Swift, used for G10 turbo. most times this is correct.
and allows me to look up parts that vary, (for sure ecu and harnesses, top list , for spark)

[fixkick]

not sure what was swapped, at all.
but on engine swaps, many times the spark parts change, i talking the twins.
CMP and CKP
most early G engines with MPI have no CKP, at all but many that do , the tone wheel in that engine varies greatly (more teeth or less) mostly 1996+ here in usa.. OBD2 evolutionary.
I have no idea what CHevy GM put in that sprint, G10 sure, but i looked on mitchells and the OBD1 ECu has 99 error codes, very non suzuki errors too..
what was the numbers on the side of the ECU for sprint,, that be a huge clue.
and can look them up if its a Suzuki P/n, 33920-xxxxx

do not let the p/n confuse you, like say and ignitor, there are 2 parts the same,, made in japan, and one cami, 2 p/n same part. so... id need actual p/n to tell you

id have the sprint FSM book in hand first. factory service manual, this will show what makes the ECU happy, to spark and inject.
in most cases the harnesses need to be changed, or the ECu will have open pins on critical inputs.

the turbo shows, advance knock controls.
so those parts need to match , ECU and all knock controls the distributor , is listed as a knock control version too. in year


and transformer shape (irregular) spark coil and the tank shape (cylinder) spark coil, they run different dwells, so can not be mixed.
in all cases, do not mix sensors or spark parts, unless you check out the details of each part.... (big differences exist) even when they look near same.

also in 1992 (1991 on Vitara/sidekicks) the distributor changed from standalone spark gen, to ecu spark generation (cmp only)
so, not of those parts can be mixed up, during this era of changes and turbo, parts.
all must match
if you had a tech1 scan tool you'd see what the ECU is missing for inputs, or that RPM is zero, or other gross errors from ECU.

wish i knew all parts swapped, im sure there is a list.
swaps are not easy unless you have both FSM books before the swap, (victim and donor) hehehehe

[fixkick]

i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

[t3tom]

i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

Thanks for your very detailed replies and questions.
I will try to answer in same order asked.
- total engine swap from Donor Canadian market 1991 sprint turbo into 1992 Canada market Suzuki swift GA. All donor parts used. Complete engine, turbo, ECU, engine wiring harness and all sensors.
This G10T 3 cylinder engine has a (CAS) crank angle sensor located in the dizzy. And a (KNK)knock sensor screwed into the engine block

The instrument cluster in 1992 is different from 1991. The 1991 cluster had a turbo light. Instrument Wires were adapted using cross reference using FSM and FSM Turbo supplement. (posted on Teamswift)

-test fuel gas no run result.
- code 12 flash result for ECU. Will advise my friend to keep Diag connector in test mode and find an OBD1 scan tool if possible.
- timing and dizzy position will require rechecking.
- inductive timing light was used to check for spark at plug wire. Initial spark test was at distributor wire to a spark plug grounded to chassis. Initial spark test passed. But currently no spark.
- noid light test was during cranking for about 5 seconds at a time. The light flashed only once while cranking and stopped flashing even as cranking continued.. On a running T3 car for comparison the noid light would flash repeatedly. So my friends car produces an odd test result.

- no other ECU codes pulled yet other than code 12.
- ECU numbers are: C2 3-MT-FED 33920-60B91 100797-3432 12V Denso Japan.

Firewall mounted igniter numbers are: 133 in large type followed by 33370-6085. 131300-1330 12V

Ignition round coil in car is correct for 1991 G10T 3 cyl. car and part number stamping is same as used on a 1992 USA Geo metro convertible.

[fixkick]

i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

Thanks for your very detailed replies and questions.
I will try to answer in same order asked.
- total engine swap from Donor Canadian market 1991 sprint turbo into 1992 Canada market Suzuki swift GA. All donor parts used. Complete engine, turbo, ECU, engine wiring harness and all sensors. The instrument cluster in 1992 is different from 1991. The 1991 cluster had a turbo light. Instrument Wires were adapted using cross reference using FSM and FSM Turbo supplement. (posted on Teamswift)

-test fuel gas no run result.
- code 12 flash result for ECU. Will advise my friend to keep Diag connector in test mode and find an OBD1 scan tool if possible.
do so cranking, the ECU reports dead spark and dead CMP but must be cranked, to do that.
- timing and dizzy position will require rechecking.
- inductive timing light was used to check for spark at plug wire. Initial spark test was at distributor wire to a spark plug grounded to chassis. Initial spark test passed. But currently no spark.
- noid light test was during cranking for about 5 seconds at a time. The light flashed only once (as in 1 pulse) while cranking and stopped flashing even as cranking continued.. On a running T3 car for comparison the noid light would flash repeatedly. So my friends car produces an odd test result.
the ECU is cutting injection on purpose, due to only 3 reasons;
1: CMP dead.
2: spark read back dead , this is the tachometer line, and is ignitor signals, to the supression module (lost or fell off?) to ECU,
3: TPS throttle angle at max 4v to 5v and it cuts fuel 100% ,but will not cut spark so , id say this is not it.

- no other ECU codes pulled yet other than code 12. (needs to be cranked for 5 full seconds, no more)
- ECU numbers are: C2 3-MT-FED 33920-60B91 100797-3432 12V Denso Japan. 60B91... ill see whats up on those..

Firewall mounted igniter numbers are: 133 in large type followed by 33370-6085. 131300-1330 12V

Ignition round coil in car is correct for 1991 G10T 3 cyl. car and part number stamping is same as used on a 1992 USA Geo metro convertible.

The ECU is cutting fuel.
it does that on all cars, with bad spark or spark precursors. (CMP or tacho dead)

that distrib, was it removed.?
did you check spark directly at COIL> tower?
that distrib how many pins on connector. ?

do you have the schematic on this turbo engine, G10? is it? 3 cylinders? , and is MPI? (you said injectors , not singular)
the spark most be good here.

here is the 92-95 , g16., spark ,see this?
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/92-95MPI-eng-...e-huge.png

see pin A8 here (YOURS WILL BE DIFFR)
THAT DEAD, KILLS ALL INJECTION.
SEE WHERE A8 GOES, DOES Yours have that suppressor?
if yes, it must be present. or fueling ends.
see B3 and that white wire , that is a hall sensor, , with a huge strong 0 to 5v square wave on it, cranking it and the meter will wag , 0v, the 5 the 0 for each cylinder.

how is that.?

best is to always check spark at coil direct first.
as that tells you the cmp is working,,,, and not distribution failure. a 5min easy check.

[t3tom]

i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

Thanks for your very detailed replies and questions.
I will try to answer in same order asked.
- total engine swap from Donor Canadian market 1991 Chevrolet Sprint turbo 3 cylinder into 1992 Canada market Suzuki swift GA G10A 3 cylinder car. All donor parts were used. Complete engine, turbo, ECU, engine wiring harness and all sensors. The instrument cluster in 1992 is different from 1991. The 1991 cluster had a turbo light. The instrument cluster was upgraded to a 1992 3 cylinder cluster with tachometer option. Instrument wires were adapted using cross reference using FSM and FSM Turbo supplement. (document links posted on Teamswift)

-test fuel gas no run result.
- code 12 flash result for ECU. Will advise my friend to keep Diag connector in test mode and find an OBD1 scan tool if possible.
do so cranking, the ECU reports dead spark and dead CMP but must be cranked, to do that. *Thanks, this test will be done this week!*
- timing and dizzy position will require rechecking.
- inductive timing light was used to check for spark at plug wire. Initial spark test was at distributor wire to a spark plug grounded to chassis. Initial spark test passed. But currently no spark.
- noid light test was during cranking for about 5 seconds at a time. The light flashed only once (as in 1 pulse) while cranking and stopped flashing even as cranking continued.. On a running T3 car for comparison the noid light would flash repeatedly. So my friends car produces an odd test result.
the ECU is cutting injection on purpose, due to only 3 reasons;
1: CMP dead.
2: spark read back dead , this is the tachometer line, and is ignitor signals, to the supression module (lost or fell off?) to ECU,
3: TPS throttle angle at max 4v to 5v and it cuts fuel 100% ,but will not cut spark so , id say this is not it.

- no other ECU codes pulled yet other than code 12. (needs to be cranked for 5 full seconds, no more)
- ECU numbers are: C2 3-MT-FED 33920-60B91 100797-3432 12V Denso Japan. 60B91... ill see whats up on those..

Firewall mounted igniter numbers are: 133 in large type followed by 33370-6085. 131300-1330 12V

Ignition round coil in car is correct for 1991 G10T 3 cyl. car and part number stamping is same as used on a 1992 USA Geo metro convertible.

The ECU is cutting fuel.
it does that on all cars, with bad spark or spark precursors. (CMP or tacho dead)

that distrib, was it removed.? *yes. My friend will need to reverify TDC*
did you check spark directly at COIL> tower? *yes initially. Second test using inductive timing light on plug wire 1.*
that distrib how many pins on connector. ? *2 pins. Red and white wire*

do you have the schematic on this turbo engine, G10? is it? 3 cylinders? , and is MPI? (you said injectors , not singular)
*Yes. It is 3 cylinder MPI. 3 injectors on fuel rail. will upload schematics

   
   
   
Full T3 FSM supplement available at: T3 FACTORY MANUAL SUPPLEMENT (ZIP FORMAT)
*
the spark most be good here.

here is the 92-95 , g16., spark ,see this?
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/92-95MPI-eng-...e-huge.png

see pin A8 here (YOURS WILL BE DIFFR)
THAT DEAD, KILLS ALL INJECTION.
SEE WHERE A8 GOES, DOES Yours have that suppressor?
*no suppressor was present but also it wasn't present on another factory stock 1991 Turbo 3 cylinder Chevrolet Sprint car used for visual comparison. [edit: My friend just told me there was a suppressor added into his car's circuit.*
if yes, it must be present. or fueling ends.
see B3 and that white wire , that is a hall sensor, , with a huge strong 0 to 5v square wave on it, cranking it and the meter will wag , 0v, the 5 the 0 for each cylinder.

how is that.?
* I am not able to confirm now as my friend lives quite far away from me. Hopefully he is reading this thread.. but I may need to help him do this test next week. !*

best is to always check spark at coil direct first.
as that tells you the cmp is working,,,, and not distribution failure. a 5min easy check.

Below is an additional question from my friend.

He wants to know if the following ignition parts from 3 and 4 cylinder cars are interchangeable:

G13 4 cylinder Coil - PN 96067256
G10 3 cylinder Coil PN 96062104

G13 4 cylinder igniter - PN 91173834
G10 3 cylinder igniter PN 91177525

Thank you very much so far, for all your help!