(07-03-2016, 01:25 PM)t3tom Wrote: Hi, I know this post is not about a Sidekick, but I found this site very helpful in explaining EFI and fuel systems.

first off Im not sure what converted means?, (total swaps, or , actually attempting to move only turbo parts 1 by 1?)
2nd located in what country?

I am helping a friend with his 1992 Suzuki Swift GA, which had been converted to use a 1991 Sprint Turbo engine. It has not been running for some time.
what was moved ? engine , all harnesses, and ECU, ?
does it run on test fuel? No, im sure its flooding.
The flash codes from ECU show code 12? key and after cranking for 5 full seconds?? (insert the diagnostic jumper now, and see WHAT's UP doc)


Actions to date:
(1) Fuel pump and fuel filter new/replaced. 35+ psi at fuel rail during ignition start on - 3 second test.
(2) Battery voltage good 12.8V no load, 11V during cranking.
(3) Fuel injectors tested for fuel delivery/spray off car test. (ah, its MPI engine most are not then)
(4) Car's ECU was tested on another running Sprint Turbo 3 car. Passed run test. (VERY GOOD)
(5) Spark test at plug. Initial test showed spark present at plugs. Recent retest shows no spark. (and timed correctly? using timing light)?


(6) Noid test: Noid light flashes only once during each cranking cycle test. What condition would cause this?
1 flash, for 300 turns a minute? thats 5 turns a second , cranking, and lots of flashing. 4x5 is 20 flashes in 1 second, 1 flash ever 180degr, of crank rotation, but on this engine its gang fired cranking, so flashes all 4 at once i think. for sure the distributor is timed wrong.
do the ecu Diag mode cranking, see if code 41 or 42?
wrong rotor in distrib. one of those POS china rotors that fit 3 ways?
wrong distrib, (there are 3 or 4 types, per G10,G13 and G16.) Standalone spark dizzy, ECU CMP fired and turbo knock versions.... yah can mix them.




(7) Ground connections checked
(8) Harness wiring has been checked.
In particular, FI signal wires and igniter wires to ECU appear correct. but are these parts, all from a turbo car, this harness?
(9) Would like to swap (external) firewall mounted igniter and ignition coil from a G16A 16V Swift sedan, in order to rule out these components contributing to the no start condition. Would these G16 parts be compatible with the igniter and coil used on the Sprint Turbo G10T?
The physical appearance of these parts are similar but they have different part numbers. (so does this mean car body has non TURBO coil and ignitor?)
I'm not sure, what country car and parts in car? USA? or?
Im not sure at all what was swapped.
pretend body of car is missing (all sheet metal gone), and only rolling chassis is there, and all electrics there, and then parts moved , which parts? moved.
what was changed. there.?

Could you offer suggestions/advice?.

(07-03-2016, 11:13 PM)fixkick Wrote: i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

(07-04-2016, 05:07 AM)t3tom Wrote:

(07-03-2016, 11:13 PM)fixkick Wrote: i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

Thanks for your very detailed replies and questions.
I will try to answer in same order asked.
- total engine swap from Donor Canadian market 1991 sprint turbo into 1992 Canada market Suzuki swift GA. All donor parts used. Complete engine, turbo, ECU, engine wiring harness and all sensors. The instrument cluster in 1992 is different from 1991. The 1991 cluster had a turbo light. Instrument Wires were adapted using cross reference using FSM and FSM Turbo supplement. (posted on Teamswift)

-test fuel gas no run result.
- code 12 flash result for ECU. Will advise my friend to keep Diag connector in test mode and find an OBD1 scan tool if possible.
do so cranking, the ECU reports dead spark and dead CMP but must be cranked, to do that.
- timing and dizzy position will require rechecking.
- inductive timing light was used to check for spark at plug wire. Initial spark test was at distributor wire to a spark plug grounded to chassis. Initial spark test passed. But currently no spark.
- noid light test was during cranking for about 5 seconds at a time. The light flashed only once (as in 1 pulse) while cranking and stopped flashing even as cranking continued.. On a running T3 car for comparison the noid light would flash repeatedly. So my friends car produces an odd test result.
the ECU is cutting injection on purpose, due to only 3 reasons;
1: CMP dead.
2: spark read back dead , this is the tachometer line, and is ignitor signals, to the supression module (lost or fell off?) to ECU,
3: TPS throttle angle at max 4v to 5v and it cuts fuel 100% ,but will not cut spark so , id say this is not it.

- no other ECU codes pulled yet other than code 12. (needs to be cranked for 5 full seconds, no more)
- ECU numbers are: C2 3-MT-FED 33920-60B91 100797-3432 12V Denso Japan. 60B91... ill see whats up on those..

Firewall mounted igniter numbers are: 133 in large type followed by 33370-6085. 131300-1330 12V

Ignition round coil in car is correct for 1991 G10T 3 cyl. car and part number stamping is same as used on a 1992 USA Geo metro convertible.

(07-04-2016, 05:32 AM)fixkick Wrote:

(07-04-2016, 05:07 AM)t3tom Wrote:

(07-03-2016, 11:13 PM)fixkick Wrote: i looked in the online, books, and no turbo wiring , to be found. (only my parts list show , some in 1991 (ish) have odd knock ,sensing, distribs.
as you know , the ECU (or distrib) must watch turbo knock, full time, and retard at the first early signs of knock, or BOOM, blown engine time.
this is how they get the warranty to last ... LOL.
but the worst of the worst , years, are now, early 90s;
TBI to MPI
and ECU runs all engine controls, now, 1992. (ish)
as you can see adding turbo to this nasty mix of evolution is nothing trivial, ( i petty the poor engineer in Japan then)

no sprint book data here either, its like super rare option and books)

Thanks for your very detailed replies and questions.
I will try to answer in same order asked.
- total engine swap from Donor Canadian market 1991 Chevrolet Sprint turbo 3 cylinder into 1992 Canada market Suzuki swift GA G10A 3 cylinder car. All donor parts were used. Complete engine, turbo, ECU, engine wiring harness and all sensors. The instrument cluster in 1992 is different from 1991. The 1991 cluster had a turbo light. The instrument cluster was upgraded to a 1992 3 cylinder cluster with tachometer option. Instrument wires were adapted using cross reference using FSM and FSM Turbo supplement. (document links posted on Teamswift)

-test fuel gas no run result.
- code 12 flash result for ECU. Will advise my friend to keep Diag connector in test mode and find an OBD1 scan tool if possible.
do so cranking, the ECU reports dead spark and dead CMP but must be cranked, to do that. *Thanks, this test will be done this week!*
- timing and dizzy position will require rechecking.
- inductive timing light was used to check for spark at plug wire. Initial spark test was at distributor wire to a spark plug grounded to chassis. Initial spark test passed. But currently no spark.
- noid light test was during cranking for about 5 seconds at a time. The light flashed only once (as in 1 pulse) while cranking and stopped flashing even as cranking continued.. On a running T3 car for comparison the noid light would flash repeatedly. So my friends car produces an odd test result.
the ECU is cutting injection on purpose, due to only 3 reasons;
1: CMP dead.
2: spark read back dead , this is the tachometer line, and is ignitor signals, to the supression module (lost or fell off?) to ECU,
3: TPS throttle angle at max 4v to 5v and it cuts fuel 100% ,but will not cut spark so , id say this is not it.

- no other ECU codes pulled yet other than code 12. (needs to be cranked for 5 full seconds, no more)
- ECU numbers are: C2 3-MT-FED 33920-60B91 100797-3432 12V Denso Japan. 60B91... ill see whats up on those..

Firewall mounted igniter numbers are: 133 in large type followed by 33370-6085. 131300-1330 12V

Ignition round coil in car is correct for 1991 G10T 3 cyl. car and part number stamping is same as used on a 1992 USA Geo metro convertible.

The ECU is cutting fuel.
it does that on all cars, with bad spark or spark precursors. (CMP or tacho dead)

that distrib, was it removed.? *yes. My friend will need to reverify TDC*
did you check spark directly at COIL> tower? *yes initially. Second test using inductive timing light on plug wire 1.*
that distrib how many pins on connector. ? *2 pins. Red and white wire*

do you have the schematic on this turbo engine, G10? is it? 3 cylinders? , and is MPI? (you said injectors , not singular)
*Yes. It is 3 cylinder MPI. 3 injectors on fuel rail. will upload schematics

   
   
   
Full T3 FSM supplement available at: T3 FACTORY MANUAL SUPPLEMENT (ZIP FORMAT)
*
the spark most be good here.

here is the 92-95 , g16., spark ,see this?
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/92-95MPI-eng-schematic_files/92-95mpi-eng-full-size-huge.png

see pin A8 here (YOURS WILL BE DIFFR)
THAT DEAD, KILLS ALL INJECTION.
SEE WHERE A8 GOES, DOES Yours have that suppressor?
*no suppressor was present but also it wasn't present on another factory stock 1991 Turbo 3 cylinder Chevrolet Sprint car used for visual comparison. [edit: My friend just told me there was a suppressor added into his car's circuit.*
if yes, it must be present. or fueling ends.
see B3 and that white wire , that is a hall sensor, , with a huge strong 0 to 5v square wave on it, cranking it and the meter will wag , 0v, the 5 the 0 for each cylinder.

how is that.?
* I am not able to confirm now as my friend lives quite far away from me. Hopefully he is reading this thread.. but I may need to help him do this test next week. !*

best is to always check spark at coil direct first.
as that tells you the cmp is working,,,, and not distribution failure. a 5min easy check.