Problem to start when the engine is hot

[fixkick]

we cant videos here, only youtube that rich...lol
those 60a parts are for 60a distributors, like our 8v. yours is 70e , 16v for 8v santana, ouch.

btw, I saw dust in you cap that looked to me as buzz saw shavings... this too fooled me... (not hard)

12s only means no sensors fell off,
mostly.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='5380' dateline='1452168182']
we cant videos here, only youtube that rich...lol

You can see it and use how you want..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TANLINS2...e=youtu.be

those 60a parts are for 60a distributors, like our 8v. yours is 70e , 16v for 8v santana, ouch.


Thanks, if I decide to change distributor cap I know it's 70e, and that reference you said me 33100-70e00..

btw, I saw dust in you cap that looked to me as buzz saw shavings... this too fooled me... (not hard)

That dust was very suspect for me too, but it seems not important according to your comments..
Anyway I'll go to see what they have in 4X4 shop..

12s only means no sensors fell off,
mostly.


Well Fixkick, I think you have help me a lot with this case, I dont want to bother you more and I have many information about the vitara that you have told me during all this time, so I'm very greatfull to you for your friendly help and right information..

The vitara is much better now, only rest a small faillure when crancking in cold, but after about two km and when the engine is hot the idle become as normal..
And when start in hot the idle is as normal now, because I regulate agin more or less the bleed and ISC hex when the mech removed the Factory seal and the vitara left the mech..
When the Multimeter 2800B come I'll do the Duty Cycle as you recommend me many times and all will be even better too..

The 14th I'll go to the Vehicle Technical Inspection then I'll tell you all about but for information only, of course..

Cheers from Spain!!, and give to your wife my regards, please..

Your friend..

Luis..

[fixkick]

sounds good so far
the 12s look normal
that delayed idle drop, might be unique too only spain ECU?s
there is no way to know this, other than real scan tool , help. shows, target rpm high, means ecu did it on purpose.

there are 2 rpms, acuatal and target.
good luck a the smog station
keep cat hot... hot as possible
even idling while waiting

[LuisCarlos]

Hello!! How are you ?

Finally the vitara passed ITV (Inspection Technical Vehicle), although the idle and 2500 r.p.m CO2 (Carbon Dioxide Emissions), tests were a little high, the officer said they were in the limit but is OK.. Idle right is 0,50, the vitara was between 0,50 and 0,70 and was very unstable, and the 2500 r.p.m right is 0,30, but the vitara was between 0,50 and 0,70 and very unstable too, I could see them on the screen also..

But if is possible I like to reduce that CO2 result to avoid enviromental emissions and not for no spend excesive gasoline, because the vitar spends less than 8 litter to 100 km on the road at a speed between 95 and 100 km/h about, depending dual carrageway, National Road, etc..

Last year before install new TBi the idle was 11,50 and to 2500 r.p.m was 13,40 so high, then I could't pass the ITV but we have two months to come back agin to a new ITV, the the result was as this time, then I passed the ITV too..

I told him all we are made about and showing him the purchase invoice of new TBI, new Oxygene sensor, new distributoe cap and rotor..

So I asked him for what is CO2 high, but he din't know he said is vey odd.. But for the momment until next year don't worry about ITV agian..

Before go to ITV iI checked the sparks plugs they are as the vitara mantenance said NGK BPR5ES, and they have 0,70 as have to be..
And the new distributor cap new rotor came two days before ITV and I installed them, but the result was the same, but I'm content to install these new parts..

I have Multimeter 2800B he came from Nevada two days ago, so I'm going to test everything I can do, first the Duty Cycle, them ECT coolant sensor as suspisous about cheating to the our friend ECu, that sensor is new and it have one year only, but I want to check it..

But, after passed ITV I started thinking if the problem about C02 high is because the CAT is in not right condition, blocked (I don't think so), or it lost its gas converter propierties, and that is not an crazy idea, because the vitara mantenance manual said : CAUTION
"to minimize the chances of damage to the catalyst, the engine does not work for an extended period if the idling is irregular or if other malfunctions"

The vitara made about 3000 km with the new TBI and in the city 300 km only, so I think the CAT have to be clean, but..

Well my friend you are now a day, if you like something to say or commet I will be glad to read it..

Cheers!!.. And thanks for being there!!

[fixkick]

redux
now we know Spain is a ONE GAS, COUNTRY CO = CARBON MONOXIDE VERY DEALY GAS. (MAKES RED BLOOD CELLS GO "ZOMBIE"
first of all the engine does, 0.09 % at the raw exhaust ports. 1995, less in 1996+ (based on thousands of cars tested G16 engines all
so your engine is running poorly. fact! and its allowed to by your smog station, just like ours.
0.7 is dead wrong at tail see why, well that is near 8x more that engine puts out.

end story once i have all facts.
at idle and 2500 rpm


we do 5 gas here and fail you fail for 3 gases,, add nox, add HC
you be luckly 2 times
lax rules and 1 gas.

in usa we fail CO about 1% ,
CO should be near zero at all times. say 0.03% near zero with a hot cat .
CAUSE.
top reason for not running right,(i know what parts were changed)
is exhaust leaks near 02 sensor. real common that on all old cars
OR LEAKING INJECTOR O-RINGS OR INJECTOR IT SELF.
ECU Flashes 12s. so its not shorted sensor
the map hose may be bad. sucking air here , bad news.. on all map based engines. the map must SEE plenum pressures at all time, or bad news.

THE WEAK LINK IS THE ECU CAN NOT DETECT SENSORS OUT OF SPEC. ONLY DEAD.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='5484' dateline='1452978755']
hello Mr. Carlos
not sure those numbers. % above?
the new EU limit on new cars is now 130g/km, CO2 ":: the CO2 grams is the inverse of mpg, (mpg really tells it all.)

I'm sorry, I make mistake, is not CO2 (Carcon dioxide), is CO (Carbon monoxide) I read the ITV documenT..
So the correct idle is 0,50 % CO volume, and 0,30 % at 2.500 r.p.m CO volume..
Sorry for confuse you..


and new car, say C500 0.9Liter, fiat is 84. (77mpg) (not a 1.6L but 900cc engine ) a TIER A car, low tax.
my old Vitara 1.6L does 230gr/km at 28mpg. there is no way to lower this, unless you, remove 1 cylinder. (displacement and mpg dictate CO2)
this car ..1.6L and does 220- 275 grams per km. (near zero coasting, or 15% CO2.

what are your number? co2? seems wrong or co2, what are your units (there are only 2 standards, g/km or in %)
what does 0,7 mean?


0,70 % CO volume at 2.500 r.p.m mean that CO is a little high, because the correct must to be 0,30 % CO volume, but hte officer said is Ok, because if that CO was for example 0,90 % C0 volume I couldn't pass the ITV..

The less fuel you burn the less CO2, and the higher the MPG the lower the co2, g/km (about 40 to 45 mph is that point) called the sweet spot.
.
0,70????? what? its not 170g/km is it grams were meter? its not %...
its not 70 gr/km as you just beat the winner this year, FIAT C500 ! no way.
very very confusing data. lacking scale or UNITS.



our data is, on the 1.6L (federal data vast collected below) 25mph (all data after cat completes its job)
HC =19ppm 2200 rpm fleet avg all.
CO = .05% super low. (engine +cat does this) (the most nasty of all this)
NOX= 124ppm (nasty 2, super bad)
CO2 = 15% (in g/km its near ~275) % can not be converted to g/km directly ,my number is from mPG conversions(mine). (suzuki is mute )


Here in ITV document I read CO only, two tests idle 0,50 % and 2.500 r.pm 0,30 % and Oxygene sensor in this case the vitara was 1,040 gr that is corrct..

our smog men can not measure g/km that takes measuring all expelled gases. (not done here)
the above data is used as a crude bench mark from your car, to pass and fail US citizens.
but g/km is what fouls the air, not %
mass per distance.


id love to see the real report, with xxxxx on names and vin.end.
i can read any report. for sure if its 5 gas, like ours. are.


Of course, but how to do ? I can make photos and post them in the gallery but I can't the gallery said 'you have quote limited' I'm trying to post but all the time unssecceful.. Anyway, I can do a exactly copy as the report but translated into English, no problem, but photos will be right too..
Or if you know what is the best to send you that report..


now that CAT, THE CAT reduces the deadly 3 gases to CO2, that means only using less fuel or driving less or slower, is GREEN (low CO2)
read that again, the deadly 3 are catalyzed and converted to CO2 and water. so add C02 it does.
HC
NOX
and CO

the CAT is not for reducing CO2, period.! its the opposite !!!

in fact it makes more CO2.!!!! read that twice....
so if the CO2 GOES OVER 15% i CAN ANSWER THAT
WHERE IS YOUR TOXIC CO??readings THIS IS a key parameter. and all others too... all tell me what's up.


I think there is not toxic CO now, my mistake about CO2 and CO confused me too.. I open in Google about CO to know what this is exactly, but appear CO2, so I believed was the same, but a friend told me that there are two CO2 and CO, that was my misanderstanding..


any time a new cat, (pretend it like magic perfect)
any time a new cat gets high HC,NOX or CO
it will rise CO2. over normal.
that is because the engine runs so bad.
that is why we use 4 gas here,
to see where oxygen is.


What mean 4 gas? Premiun, 95, 98, etc..?..
If is that, here also..

try to know the 3 deadly gasses are far worst that CO2. way worse.

" minimize the chances of damage to the catalyst, the engine does not work for an extended period if the idling is irregular or if other malfunctions"

do not a misfiring engine, or if CEL flashes, or not code 12s.
because that overheats the cat, some can glow red hot.


That systms are right, but the idle is unstable since long time as you know, especialy when start in hot, but tomorrow I'll do the Duty Cycle, I have all ready to do it, to see temp in ISC, and to measure ECT sensor, I'll tell you the results..

wish i had you real smog papers
(with privacy xxxxxxxxx.

---

your welcome

I'll do the my best you can see these papaers..
By mail will be the best I have one when you wrote me about malwarebytes, if not possible I'll think what to do..
Is possible here in this page ?..


are all number above CO2
and not CO
not HC
not NOX?

if are, is that %

On that paper, only one, you can read CO only..

are you confusiing, CO2 with CO
they are not the same at all

Of course, that have been this misanderstanding, you know that wrong now..

at 2500 rpm steady the ECU runs at STOICH, 14.7:1 YOU CAN'T (easy)change that. its fixed by the 02 sensors. (unless EFI is sick)
at 2500 rpm Co2 is max, at stoich.
if cat is dead, CO2 is lower. (but the 3 deadly gases or super bad)
if you force. the 02 off line, to lean, CO2 goes lower about 3% from 15% to 12.( (ecu goes super lean DE-accelerating.)
if you force. the 02 off line to rich. CO2 again goes lower, by 4% to 11% (all car do this accelerating but not flat steady cruise 30mpg)
in the last too cases, the other deadly 3 gases kill people an ozone and acid rain, far far worse than co2. for sure.

what then is best.?
answer (car only not driving)
make sure closed loop works at 15mph 25mph and 50mph on flat ground. means you are at SHOICH 14.7:1 aFR.
and a fresh cat. old cats are not green.
just like new cars do.

---

now lets talk cat
see my smog reports before? al 5 gases, (meas, ave , max allowed)
if you know engine runs right
and meas, boxes (your car) is above AVG.
that is a clue of a weakened cat.


What mean is avobe AVG ?..
Before new TBI there was too much and stank, but now is as normal..

the ave here is huge number of cars, in CALIF its a long 20 year run of data
super accurate.
[/quote


That right, I want to get the vitara was in a right enviromente conditions too, of course..
After chcking the vitara with Multimeter I'll tell you everthyng about..

Thanks Mr Jerry and cheers!!

[fixkick]

i thought so, only IPPC sniffs CO2,( get my joke?, maybe they sniff too much CO2, and go batty?)
no foul. i enjoy seeing what's up there at ITV, truly! and all your poSts , and love solving a hard riddle...
YOUR CO IS HIGH for sure, (the ITV is lax (good! you Passed the test)

normal is 0.05 % at tail see that extra zero that is real. less than 1/10 of a percent volume
if engine is in closed loop the CAT is bad. for sure, easy,

id have to probe front and rear of cat to make sure engine was not a gross polluter, lacking a scan tool. they make tiny plugs to do this magic. 1/8"
no English translation needed , my wife can do but most science is Latin and can figure out context easy
PM me with attachments? click my name , then click PM me (for smog certificate)
or see bottom of fixkick.com my email is there ,graphically
but if only 1 test, i dont need your report. it's not a 5qas report. so not much good.

you are correct you fell below the 1% CO max, just by a HAIR.

the CO reduction in cat is 70-90% so either cat is weak or engine is way too high (but it will not be high if in closed loop at exhaust ports)
in your case a new CAT will not fix this problem.


4 or 5 gas?
that means the smog station measure all 5 gases, HC,O2,CO2,CO,NOX 1 ... 5 gas.
best of best test methods
in some countries they do only CO
since 1979 like we did then, Go /nogo
5 gas analyzer, tells you more whats happening,for sure 02 (oxygen present.
some stations here do only 3 gas, (no 02 ,no CO2)
see?
5 gas testing is best and the CAT intrusive test best of all. no better. period
an engine running, at STOICH closed loop, is 10 times less you reading, at exhaust ports.
i have data (left # is real right uncertainty variance)
0.09 +/- 0.07 % CO is our national average of all cars (CAT missing) 1995 (exhaust ports)
and 3 times less ,starting in 1996 on (obd2 upgrades) 0.03 +/- 0.01%
id call this 0,1 % (rounded off)
why is yours at 0,7% so close to 1%? lets see.... that...
it passes but something is terribly wrong,

your idle surge is ok, that don't make smog,
if not misfiring? or lean surge? (closed loop dropping in and out)



a ton of english below but the tests are good (California tests)
http://californiasmoginstitute.com/image...edures.pdf



conclusions (all fun)
your country is one gas country CO gas, that gas is ,carbon MON-Oxide. (the most nasty of all gasses, makes red blood cells zombie's)
like we did in 80s,..
it's ok, for sure easy to pass. super easy, total different from say California. (the test 3 gas)

your CO is high.
most cars with high HC HAVE 2 CHOICES.
1:REPLACE CAT AND HIDE IT (DOES 90% REDUCTION THIS STEP)] ( works only to rarely)
2: FIX ENGINE SO CO IS LOW. ITS NOT. BINGO.

Why do i say its not GOOD.
easy, normal is 0.1% from engine.
90% of 0.1 is what. 0.09 reduction so 0.1 - 0.9 is , 0.01% at tail pipe end
YOU HAVE 0.7%
but....

FACTORIALS:
what if cat is OLD 70% low BUT LEAGAL LOW spec
hummMM
means engine 3% (bad) minus 70% reduction, for 3-2.1= 0,9% just pass.
what is wrong here, engine bad,cat marginal
the truth here is i cant guess,,what actual engine is emitting
but im sure its dead wrong. doing the math all ways



FYI, my smog chits.
are max ave(avg) and meas
max = max allowed by law (different by engine and year)
ave means average of all cars like this, measured, true data. i real world.
meas = your car now live data


im sue your cat is toast , or insides missing
there are other cat tests one is with an IR pyro gun
same temp both ends means dead cat.

Its not easy to fix any OBD1 engine with no matching 0bd1 scan tool.
not at all
Your fuel pressure is ok
the 02 is new
Im thinking now its misfiring. at ilde, and at 2500 rpm, is the rear wheels on load rollers/???????

---

in calif this is what we do
worse case is good. example
1: if scared , all are in CALIf with old cars, a valid fear
2:and scared of the "gross pollution rules and STATUS.? sure you are, and the penalties!!!
3: stay out of the state in inspection stations for now....fear... knees shacking....
4: go to any ASE shop (pros) they drill hole front pipe of cat , called invasion test. cute name.
5: he then get engine to temp fully hot. and then with 5 gas connected, to new front test port (we use 02 sensor bung ring welded there)
6: what is engine HC and CO. sure high repair engine, (real engine CO, front) more tests on engines to cure it. now.
7: ok engine fixed now, what is HC and CO at tail pipe end, sure zero, (near)
8: put a plug in the new port so it dont leak. ours is 18mm x 1.5 pitch
seen here
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/O2%20sens...m-bung.jpg
8: now go the Calif state inspection station. and pass. no penalty

this tactic works world wide. (not NOX that the long long story, avoid this)

[fixkick]

updated.
the next test next, smog test.
his cat was slow. it's slow to reduce 2 gases. only 2 checked there (in Spain)
CO
HC
nox, not checked.
they had to race engine to get it to pass... held there,
this is common,
he has a scan tool and engine is running at STOCH 14.7:1 AFR. MANY NEW PARTS, O2 AND TB, AND CORRECT ECT . has great MPG, super good.
it's just a slow cat.
they all do that this old, then later, go dead. Dead cat by next year? luck my happen, hope does.