engine rpm surge. help needed.

[fixkick]

but one,

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/s...hp?tid=470

the problem is no over the counter tools sold for suzuki before 1996 , zero.
only thing is the above tool. (from UK)

[Rapom]

ah yes Hondata. only used it one time in a friends turbo application on an Acura RDX pretty cool. messed around with a Diablo Sport tuner on a Chrysler 300 SRT-8 i used to have. pretty scary stuff. lets you change ALOT more than it should. including fuel maps. i added 30% more fuel at 7000 rpm and almost blew it up... ment to add .3% not 30!!!

so today ive noticed on 2 occasions while the kick was cold (sat for more than 10 hours at 15*F) during cold idle i CAN NOT reproduce the surge buy means. this is new to me. i never put thought to it about hot or cold effecting the surge. apparently it only does it after warmed up. does that bit of info help or hurt us?

and another thing..

this ISC needs fixed asap! tonight i had to use headlights, radio, and defrost (ac on)... with all this load.. (even at high cold idle) when i shifted to drive... the poor little guy was idling at 200 rpm. headlights were very dim (due to low rpm alt output) but i feel if i had to run one more thing, example... if it were raining. the engine would stall. + lugging at 200 rpm has to be bad. im thinking i need to address the ISC first... where is this located? can i remove it without damaging a gasket? clean or replace?

and then after we get ALLLLL of the engine sorted... its then time to tackle the slush pump. (tcc not locking up/delay then la la land from 1st to 2nd) another day... another day

[fixkick]

so today ive noticed on 2 occasions while the kick was cold (sat for more than 10 hours at 15*F) during cold idle i CAN NOT reproduce the surge buy means. this is new to me.
the ECU on all cars have many modes, (a short list)
1: crank mode
2: cold start run. (15f the IAC is fully open) and engine must race fast, do to that fact, ECU has idle controls cold until magic 150F happen and aBOVE.
this ISC is dead, cold , due to actions of IAC. (IAC always wins) http://fixkick.com/engine/96-98%2016v%20...motor1.pdf
3; Warm running, iSC is (ECU slave) runs all idle speeds, and in closed loop AFR and 02 sensor trims MAF errors.
4: acceleration mode, enrich (closed loop ends, MAF runs the shows here 100% (matches fuel to air from MAF data)
5: deceleration mode, cut fuel.
6: Limphome mode. (or far worse failsafe(bad ecu is this)

we dont know what causes the surge, hot yet, its only hot, surge, not cold, so can be lot of things, lacking scan tool it can be very hard to pin down.
but there tests and actions to take, ISC cleaning is a 50k service point in my book. (the horror of the egr/PCV gas cloud, gums it up is why)
but at 1900 rpm the ISC is not used foot in to the throttle pedal, so seems you have at least 2 problems here.


i never put thought to it about hot or cold effecting the surge. apparently it only does it after warmed up. does that bit of info help or hurt us?
helps, sure, it does, most engines do not surge cold due to the very rich AFR, cold,
what matters is , just one thing, is it just lean mixture causing this or is the ECU surging the ISC, there are many tricks of the trade to pin this down lacking a scan tool. (unplug the ISC, hold throttle at 1900 rpm hot, by hand?) surge now.
and /or, (add propane gas during the surge, does this end the surge, (smacks of lien running) with scan tool you'd see, LTFT going nuts of lean.


and another thing..

this ISC needs fixed asap! tonight i had to use headlights, radio, and defrost (ac on)... with all this load.. (even at high cold idle) when i shifted to drive... the poor little guy was idling at 200 rpm.
Why not clean it the ISC it just unbolts from the plenum, if this happens and the idle switch is closed and the EGR main is closed, then the ISC is dead,.
if the ECU tries to open the stuck valve, RPM goes to 200. this is what can happen, stacking up all loads on any engine (even new cars) and a dead ISC.

headlights were very dim (due to low rpm alt output) but i feel if i had to run one more thing, example... if it were raining. the engine would stall. + lugging at 200 rpm has to be bad. im thinking i need to address the ISC first... where is this located? can i remove it without damaging a gasket? clean or replace?
new is $200 + money, cleaning is 1buck.
sure the gasket will be damage, most do 22 years old, but some come out ok but are now like petrified , old hard and brittle. and useless.
a good shop has gasket stock and and xacto knife to make one.... Napa sells, raw gasket material over the counter.

ISC photos here.: lots


http://fixkick.com/find-parts.html
ISC (one line is coolant !!!) other is air.
http://fixkick.com/sensors/16v-engine93w.jpg
ISC
http://fixkick.com/sensors/93-mpi-smog1.JPG

http://fixkick.com/my96-16v/engine2.jpg





and then after we get ALLLLL of the engine sorted... its then time to tackle the slush pump. (tcc not locking up/delay then la la land from 1st to 2nd) another day... another day (kick down cable not calibrated, see my 3speed page)

my surge page covers this. (in all cases the idle switch is closed = 0 vdc) the engine hot, and for sure never below 150F(magic temp rule#1)
http://www.fixkick.com/surge.html

[fixkick]

im might add, seen many old cars, never once had a coolant system flush clean and replaced.
and found those tubes all packed in orange mudd, zero service cars, do that. like clock work.
when that happens the IAC goes dead. (sticks open ) the hot water to the ISC does nothing to the ISC, but passes heat to the plenum to heat it up.

to see why that happens see my magic, drawing, nobody else has. but in your case if this happens the engine will race and scream hot, even 3000rpm
(assumes 1 failure, not 3) IR gun pointed to IAC and ISC tells you if its happening this bad deal,

http://fixkick.com/Cooling-engine/16v-water-paths2w.JPG

[Rapom]

very helpfull! thank you! got too busy sunday. i have a few days off coming up... so on the ISC while i have it off for cleaning i was planning to energize it on the bench to see if the motor is good. do you know if it recieves a full 12 volts or 5?

[fixkick]

very helpfull! thank you! got too busy sunday. i have a few days off coming up... so on the ISC while i have it off for cleaning i was planning to energize it on the bench to see if the motor is good. do you know if it recieves a full 12 volts or 5?

all good questions, my video shows doing just that

12vdc, is it,
and do not hold the connection , long, just 1second at time. or it overheats.
on the car it vibrates 200 times a second, PWM ways.
it will close by default. springs.
and 12vdc opens it, about 5mm?
mp4 video here. VLC can play it. (very very short video here, and to the point)

http://www.fixkick.com/videos/FLV-all/isc1.mp4

[fixkick]

I do wish you great luck
and a great holiday season !

[Rapom]

so no real updates.. was on my desktop pc so i figured id share a few pics. today i had a second (that turned into 6 hours) to check the ISC (or iac depending on the person) the thing that raises idle with electrical load and being put in gear... that thing. well.. i removed it from the vehicle, scrapped off the old gasket material that stuck to it. cleaned it really well with carb cleaner. went to put it back on and thought to myself "hey weren't you going to bench test this?" ok so first because i couldn't find jumper wires i used my DMM and checked ohms. just looking for any number... well my number was OL yep.. O frekin L. so then i scavenged up my jumper leads. applied 12 volts... nothing. not a damn thing. ok the ISC motor is fried. so i get on the internet and call around $300.. yep. needless to say i spent the next 4 hours in 4 different junk yards. finally the last yard way in the back had a 94 4door kick. engine looked untouched! i snatched the ISC, the MAF, the TPS, and the intake tube baffle piece i was missing. was in a hurry.. i didnt even look inside! i need interior bit and do dads too. will have to go back. i tested the ISC with ohms, got a reading! sweet. 12 volts applied click! perfect. all of it cost me $25 total. epic! so i tested my current tps, seems ok. i have .085 ohms at closed throttle and 4.0 fully open. the one from the junk yard reads like .040 ohms closed and 5.0 full open, this was an off the car test tho., i tested ohms on both maf sensors and they are equal. bought and used a can of maf spray on my original and reinstalled it. have not started the kick yet at all. will do tomorrow and see if my isc works and try to adjust the tps to get that surge out., oh so i took apart my old non working isc (which is "sealed") to see if i cant have the motor repaired... well turns out these dont use a "motor" but instead what looks like a field coil. not repairable what so ever.        

[Rapom]

so no real updates.. was on my desktop pc so i figured id share a few pics. today i had a second (that turned into 6 hours) to check the ISC (or iac depending on the person) the thing that raises idle with electrical load and being put in gear... that thing. well.. i removed it from the vehicle, scrapped off the old gasket material that stuck to it. cleaned it really well with carb cleaner. went to put it back on and thought to myself "hey weren't you going to bench test this?" ok so first because i couldn't find jumper wires i used my DMM and checked ohms. just looking for any number... well my number was OL yep.. O frekin L. so then i scavenged up my jumper leads. applied 12 volts... nothing. not a damn thing. ok the ISC motor is fried. so i get on the internet and call around $300.. yep. needless to say i spent the next 4 hours in 4 different junk yards. finally the last yard way in the back had a 94 4door kick. engine looked untouched! i snatched the ISC, the MAF, the TPS, and the intake tube baffle piece i was missing. was in a hurry.. i didnt even look inside! i need interior bit and do dads too. will have to go back. i tested the ISC with ohms, got a reading! sweet. 12 volts applied click! perfect. all of it cost me $25 total. epic! so i tested my current tps, seems ok. i have .085 ohms at closed throttle and 4.0 fully open. the one from the junk yard reads like .040 ohms closed and 5.0 full open, this was an off the car test tho., i tested ohms on both maf sensors and they are equal. bought and used a can of maf spray on my original and reinstalled it. have not started the kick yet at all. will do tomorrow and see if my isc works and try to adjust the tps to get that surge out., oh so i took apart my old non working isc (which is "sealed") to see if i cant have the motor repaired... well turns out these dont use a "motor" but instead what looks like a field coil. not repairable what so ever.

im quoting myself lol... but forgot to add.. my isc valve had been removed by nincompoop last owner (s) the lower hose had an aftermarket clamp on it. so these asses knew it was bad. instead of replacing it... they just raised the idle a bunch... people...

[fixkick]

so no real updates.. was on my desktop pc so i figured id share a few pics. today i had a second (that turned into 6 hours) to check the ISC (or iac depending on the person) the thing that raises idle with electrical load and being put in gear... that thing. well.. i removed it from the vehicle, scrapped off the old gasket material that stuck to it. cleaned it really well with carb cleaner. went to put it back on and thought to myself "hey weren't you going to bench test this?" ok so first because i couldn't find jumper wires i used my DMM and checked ohms. just looking for any number... well my number was OL yep.. O frekin L.
this thing has spec, for homes, 12 ohms or about 1amp. (12 watts) (the 89/90 year was 6 ohms)
if that meter is working the coil is shorted, and if shorted that loves to burn the ECU transistor that drives it. oops. a rare failure for sure.
always use a 2nd meter , a fixed range meter us the 20 ohm or 200 ohm scale, fixed. see if its not 12 ohms or about. say 12 ohms +-20% )
if it is shorted, the ISC is useless
but if the ISC is burned up then how can it surge? (unless AFR is lean)



so then i scavenged up my jumper leads. applied 12 volts... nothing. not a damn thing. that 12vdc need a 1 to 2 amp power source, minimum
using an inline fuse as the FSM directs you to test things hot wired or a short coil put to a car battery the wire glow red hot and burn you hands.
this is all basic elect. safety that, I use current limited power supply (bench) to do that and not need a fuse.


ok the ISC motor is fried. so i get on the internet and call around $300.. yep. needless to say i spent the next 4 hours in 4 different junk yards. finally the last yard way in the back had a 94 4door kick. engine looked untouched! i snatched the ISC, the MAF, the TPS, and the intake tube baffle piece i was missing. was in a hurry.. i didnt even look inside! i need interior bit and do dads too. will have to go back. i tested the ISC with ohms, got a reading! sweet. 12 volts applied click! perfect. all of it cost me $25 total. epic!
so i tested my current tps, seems ok. i have .085k ohms (850ohms that) at closed throttle and 4.0v fully open. the one from the junk yard reads like .040k ohms (400 ohms) closed and 5.0v full open, this was an off the car test tho.,
i tested ohms on both maf sensors and they are equal. (ohms dont work here it is not coil of wire, only power matters and output voltage., it's and anaglo electronic sensors)

bought and used a can of maf spray on my original and reinstalled it. have not started the kick yet at all. will do tomorrow and see if my isc works and try to adjust the tps to get that surge out., oh so i took apart my old non working isc (which is "sealed") to see if i cant have the motor repaired... well turns out these dont use a "motor" but instead what looks like a field coil. not repairable what so ever.

The ISC is solenoid, some mechanics think solenoids are motors. if it has wire and move, it be motor , but you are correct it is in fact a solenoid.
we have the part dismantled in web site. in great details.
http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/Slide_Sh...ge_12.html

how ever you be first to unwind a coil there, LOL


the problem now is will the ECU not be burned up. 58B70 ECU. (or 58B7x)

the transistor that blows is here.

Q101 (blows up) if ISC current goes to infinity, as they do shorted!
2SC2562 (still sold world wide) its bigger transistor to handling 1 full amp, if the ISC pins do not modulate (PWM) at 200 times a second, the ECU is bad.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU-16v-92w.JPG