16v IDLE SAGA.
for some reasons I never get email warnings of post. so I am slowed by that.
wip- work in progress that.
holy crap Photobucket is usless!! i used to use it all the time for photo and video uploads but there are so many ad's and pop ups its not usable. i tried to upload a vid to it but didnt work.. i dont think i can attach a vid here.
No videos here, its sql and very limited space dictated by server owners.
post videos to youtube, they make a fortune on clicks and can afford $15,000 servers, endless.... google server farms or wiki it and go OMG....
so update..
i retested the (junkyard) isc for ohms. it is at 11.9 my original is OL. (infinite) trashed.
drove the kick today.
(but did not check the idle stop screw for set wrong?)
i immediately noticed the cold idle was higher. usually its around 1200. today it was at 1500.
(i did the suck blow test on the junkyard isc and it is sealed completely shut when not energized)
100% normal if not stuck closed, we tickle the valve with a tooth pick end cut off, push it pen 1/8" to 1/4" it is just a spring loaded valve. on rubber seat most are wrecked and leak that seat.)
dont know if this higher idle means anything or nothing at all.
all G16s made race cold, and by law ! cold engine and cold fuel does not burn right so adding extra air burns more fuel and less smog and no damage to the cat. all engines do that. for that reason, keep in mind 2 things, NO SMOG and not CAT damage. !!! (the damage adds too)
the RACING is 100% IAC done, that funny thing below that TB is open below 150f degrees water temp. the colder it is, the more air it meters.
not only that 1500 rpm winds down to 800 hot. all G16 do that, every one made and the IAC does that and when it closes the ISC takes over all RPM controls 100% hot. but must hot, and hot is over 150f, on all G16s made. 8v or 16v !
i waited for it to warm up fully
(only over 150f matters and 180f is spec) we use an IR gun to see what it really is.
800rpm now
and turned on all loads, first was highbeams, full blower speed, radio, and put into drive.
rpm dropped from 800 (before load) to 700 with load. before it would be at 500.,
then with all other loads on.. i turned on the AC. i watched the rpm drop and thought...
(to what? why not say all RPMS)??
well go figure ecm is trashed
(we dont know that).
as i was having that thought the idle rpm shot up to 900!!!
before with full load, ac on idle speed was 200!!
(called near stalling, means the ISC is dead, in all case if engine is not LEAN)
did you clean the junk yard ISC first then test it with 12vdc power (battery or 2 amp power pack)first? that is first firsts. did you,
after all its a used part, are you going to spend $400+ on a ecu with a bad used ISC?
btw after a new ISC is installed a the ISC duty cycle needs to be set to 50%
my guess the bad guy (PO) wrecked all that. with his bad ISC.
if the bad guy (im guessing cant see him do the evil) he turned the bleed screw down then the then the duty cycle is all wrong now
that means the ISC can not add full air and raise idle for say shifting into DRIVE (worse case is the transmission, in gear)
see that,l fact? if the badguy turned every freakn screw on car, all that needs to be fixed first.
with very dim lights.
the alternator does off line at low RPM why wonder that, do fix hot 800 IDLE, only that matters.
holy hell did i fix something?
so then i went a step further and tested the isc connector for ohms..
.. (never use ohms with key on)
to me this test will prove if there is feedback from the ecm.
No i told you voltage or a scope not ohms on a running car ever.
if OL or infinite i can assume the transistor is trashed. there are only 2 valid tests here, not ohms)
ohms only tells you the coil is not open or shorted or 1/2 burned up, 12ohms is normal, 0 is shorted, infinity is burned open coil and 25ohms is damage coil
all with connectors pulled, !!! and no power to ECU. (key off )
well i got around 5 ohms. dont know if this value is good or bad but what i do know is that its not OL or infinite! so good? im thinking so. test drove kick afterwards and all is well. no crazy low idles like before.
The idle will be random, speeds, if the ISC is dead, that is what idle controls do, it controls idle at 800 rpm at all times hot, its only job.
and yours is not working, so idle speeds RPM will be random, in all cases like this. (just like carb cars were for 88 years) 1900 to 1988 (no efi)
the EPA also dictates this RPM and the full controls.
move on to adjusting the TPS.
i DID NOT use anything but an 8mm socket here and my fingers... no DMM or gauges or anything.. wrong? hell yes it is. my point is..
if you remember earlier on i said the tps was maxed out in one direction...
so no matter how bone headed i adjust it by ear..
(no tps on earth can be adjusted by ear, ever, not possible)
no way can i make it worse?
sure you can ,
so i throttled the engine up right at 1900 rpm while it was surging i begin to turn the tps very slowly. first thing i noticed as i turned the tps it was drastically raising my rpm on me. no big deal, i just had to maintain that 1900 surge. well i got the tps right about center (which is where visually all of the ones not tampered with seem to be) and the surge stopped!!!,
i backed off the tps and the surge returned.
so i turned it just until the surge went away and tightened it down...
so now that ive fixed (or bandaided/covered up) the surge..
i have other issues..
(as we knew would arise from fixing previous owners nincompoop adjustments)
i stopped turning the tps exactly when the surge stopped because as stated the further i turn it the higher the idle gets. so now.. the tps is "adjusted" lol.. now my new issues.
what you did there , ive no clue at all, fun to read, sure.
bad TPS?
my last 3 sidekicks, had 10 bad parts each just on the engine side.
if one part fails, it hides others bad, ever heard of limp-home mode.
case in point the MAF dies, the ECU goes to limphome and uses the TPS as an air valve, yes, and guess what, the TPS is running under totally new rules.
and all the above is just side effects. of that.
issue 1.....
we know the throttle plate is closed 99.99999% bone head did not touch the stop screw, lets not go there lol
GREAT, try to know I cant just look there and see 10 things wrong, that is common on very old cars, supper common.
nor does a scan tool work like on all newer cars 96+ cant.
HOT>>>>>?????
idle is at 1100. thought ok. adjust idle screw on top on intake/TB area. i turned it as the idle was lowering i noticed the screw bottomed out. oh shit.
do not over tighten the bleed or wreck its seat !!!
no RPM stated here, how can I help when you dont report RPM now?
but proves air leaks sure.
a working ISC, with the dutycycle air bleed screw closed, the engine now has no air supply. at all
so stalls. but the ECU sees you do that, and opens the ISC 100% (all 16v do that) and then idle will rise, to hide your illegal air leaks.
if you had unplugged the iSC NOW, the engine must stall or it has a huge vacuum leak.
the bleed screw sets duty cycle to 50% (per the book)
and this allows the ISC to add air by 50% or cut air by 50% see that????
that is how the ISC adds air to get rpm to 800 shifted into gear.
you have vacuum leaks.(to the plenum) see that huge air box behind the TB< that is plenum box, it keeps vacuum from bouncing and confusing the MAF.
still high idle and im out of adjustment!!! i looked over at the distributor adjustment gap (where retard slows idle/advance s
peeds up)
tell me you did not wreck sparking timing now? please.. be the worst thing to do now.... that.....ask why.
i noticed the bolt is in the center of the slot. good enough for me.. not maxed out either direction. (like the tps)
forget that, its not any ISC , its timing. only.
that is spark timing its set with spark strobe light with the freeze jumper set, and idle must be 800 hot or the spark can not be set > per the book.
so i moved on to possible large vac leaks... nothing obvious. then i sprayed carb cleaner on fuel injector O rings and all hoses and intake to head gasket and intake half gasket. tb gasket. nothing found!!! no leaks. cant hear one, cant see one.. cant spray and find one. so i thought... is the isc stuck full open?
or the IAC is stuck open did you block its air port with clay? to test that hot?
i unplugged it (my guess ISC) and the damn idle dropped from 1100 to 600 (this entire time no loads at all were on)
I cant see you working, but is the bleed screw closed now? and the ISC unplugged is on my idle test page.
under this conditions there is no air now , 0 air on any G16v ever made, now.
so zero air means engine can not run, like starting and engine on the moon, with zero air.
same.
That proves huge vacuum like,. that means IAC is bad. (if all other possible points of vacuum leaks are not leaking (vast)
the plenum must not suck air now, isc closed, (did you pinch its 1 vacuum hose (not water) that kills the ISC dead, only.l the hose.
pulling the electric connector fails to close the ISC (does new one) but fails on stuck ISC or ISC hacked with 5mm hex allen key screw, or the internal ISC
rubber seat is GONE worn to death as every one ive ever seen was. (i re-calibrate the iSC to hid this damage ask)
so what is next why not block the IAC suck port to make it dead now. test only on a hot engine, please, only hot matters. now.
so i plugged it back in and the idle raised to 650.. should the isc be doing anything at idle with no loads? either way i adjusted the idle screw to 800rpm.
I will say it again, the ISC regulates (means ISC and ECU brains) controls idle at 800 rpm hard coded inside the ECU and EPA law. rules. and holds idle a
800 RPM at all times, only hot, and only if the idle switch is closed, period.
Cold is IAC. ok>? not ISC.
(its now about 1 full turn from bottomed out) lots of back and forth info here... thoughts? was the isc/ecm confused and temporary held the isc wide open? i did clean and lubricate it. (because if you clean to vigorously it can become dry and stick(NO), so i shot a shot of wd40 in the spring after i cleaned it)
NO sorry, use MAF cleaner, a can that says safe for automotive plastics,
wd40 is only oil and some kerosene light machine oil, and only invites dirt to stick to it, dry is best. like new, see, dry,
wd40 is a dirt magnet. in all cases.
it runs dry, and will get wet with engine oil (PCV path) and nasty crap from EGR cloud of death inside the plenum ,ever gander in t here, a nasty mess there.
2nd issue...
remember the intermittent "clicking/ticking" noise i reported having earlier on? this is not internal engine or a mechanical engine noise. it sounds like a relay rapidly clicking,
why not find it? there are no relays there, just VSV vacuum soleniod valves. ISC buzzes 200 times a second (called 200Hz)
the isc can click, sure. and do at all times but not over and over, fast.
VSv EGR is off , at idle so cant click
the
vsv EVAP is off until driving.
there are 2 a/c relay but those do not run EFI. ever but A?C on tells the ECU to go to 1000 rpm hot idle called the fast idle feature, but A/C is off
if you turn off the blower the ecu will never go to 1000 rpm (a trick)
this below is not useful you are doing illegal things to a poor TPS that is running on a bad running engine,its a side show only)
its like noting you cant juggle bowling pins good while on fire ...
see? a side show..
not only that every time you do that you wreck the TPS IDLE SWITCH CALIBRATION why on earth ever do THAT? how confusing ! that, sorry
well as i was adjusting the tps, right when the surge stopped, the ticking started. at the exact same time. like they traded places. the clicking/ticking starts at around 1900 rpm, goes away above 2300 rpm., doesnt exist from idle to 1899 rpm. is only there under extreme light throttle application. (just like the surge was) you can hear it while driving but its only like i said, 1900-2300 rpm, ie cruising at 30-38 mph with very light throttle input. (this is the vid i tried to upload and failed) my stethoscope is at work..
so i used a long screw driver to try and find what the hell is clicking... i was un-successful..
(btw unplugging the isc did not stop the ticking)
what i do know is this tick is not coming from the isc,fpr,maf,tps,egr valve, egr vacuum modulator, egr relay, or the relay next to that.
that is not a relay, its vsv a valve the name matters its not and electric relay all it is an electric, vacuum valve. its a valve.
use use a clean gas hose to your ear, and listen for clicks or sucking vacuum sounds.
to me the sound is coming from under the intake, above the injectors between cyl 2 and 3 (you know.. an area you can not access!!)
is there a vss under there? NO there is nothing there at all,
VSS , no the VSS1 is in 2 places VSS1 and 1, one is the backup VSS in the speedo cluster. the other is on the most rear tail shaft of the trans
if 4wd its on the tail of the transfer case and no it will not click there
yes speedos , all made by suzuki are crap and click, tool me buying 3 speedos to make 1 work and not click.
'
the plunum bolts to the head.via runners x4
the FPR loves to fail here, even suck air. too, most now are DEAD, FPR do not last forever nor at 20 years old.
under the intake runners are what.
a huge harness, (injectors wires there in it) the brace
seen many with the brace to frame there, loose due to lazy starter replacement, putting it back and not actally tightening all 4 bolts/
id say if the parts on top of the engine do not click then its not and EFI issue, (well not the injector front end of harness just below #1 front runner intake now loose.
i cant think of what could make this sound nor what would cause it.? hell maybe its normal and every 16valve does it and im just being paranoid... its loud enough that the wife asked what that noise was while we were driving it. and shes not mechanically inclined at all what so ever.
I just got a new Grand Cherokee dirt cheep the guy was scared engine was bad. (funny noises from v6)
got home (2010 car) only 4 years old
in 5minutes work is the AC mounts move, the last joker left all AC compressor mounted loose doing I guess front spark plugs.
a $5000 discount to me. and 5 minutes work, best deal ever. and runs like a new car.
learn to find all noises,
even a hose on the end of a 3 foot wood dowel rods to ear , can even find things hands cant go.././. top or bottom of car.
5/16" gas line or dirt cheep home depot, vinyl hose, ? hose to ear. finds 3 things, noise, vacuum sucks and exhaust putts...
Conclusions;
leave the ISC alone, set the idle switch also suzuki tells you and leave it alone, please, why in the world add to problems
all we can do is correct each failure 1 by 1 and not make it worse on purpose, like you did.?
here are some tips on EFI
first off OBD1 sucks swap gas, no scan tools sold of the counter , yes, sucks !
and OBD1 is brick stupid , sucks again,. no misfire monitors tops my list of sucks. nor can you see the fuel trims called, LTFT. yah sucks.
know that idle controls are the last thing to work right.
for sure on OBD1 cars, of any make or new cars idle is last.
but is key symptom , as we all know if idle goes wrong, the EFI is crying for help, in 1/2 the cases its nothing to do at all with idle,
here is why, and is simple
the ISC brain (ISC +ECU) has as rule,. called the AMOUNT OF COMMAND AUTHORITY.
Like a person can talk in a whisper or scream (range of authority) but cant not be heard of a chain saw engine,
why well you cant scream 200DB levels, impossible.
the same with all servos made by man.
case in point Mr. ISC, it can only open 100% never 101 newer 200 % that is impossible
now the opposite end.
the ISC can not close below 0% and for SURE MINUS % minus percent ever. it CAN NOT reduce air leaks below its 0% closed point ever
the simple rules of physics can not be changed.
you have vacuum leaks.
for sure I cant guess where, or from what, only testing and inspections find leaks.
if you pinch the ISC closes (1 line is air only that hose is pinched closed)
that ends all air from ISC even all possible bad ISC
then you screwed the bleed closed. gently
and engine is still running at any RPM that is the hall mark of a vacuum leak,..
hard cold balls to the wall proof, (TV is closed you told that)
that leaves IAC leaking
one rule is try not to fool the ECU, (you will lose , i promise and 10x that for OBD1) it will punish you. (hope not)
there are 2 vacuum leaks,
1: from the earth fresh air (make engine go lean) lean will cause rpm drop if to much leaks in (HOT ENGINE, all comments by me are HOT HOT ENGINE)
2: and the 3 normal paths, ISC +IAC + Bleed path) this never ever cause lean ,but only full power illegal fast RPM idle speeds hot.
I alway check the easy ducks first, i line them up and knock over each duck 1 by 1, easy means time not cost.
time and labor less. easy..
what ill be will be, I never try to avoid facts ,test or truth, let it come on, facts.
try to think like EFI brain helps but in this case alike tiny guy in the plenum chamber there, say 2 elves.
elf one says, why is vacuum leaking,
elf 2 says, well gee I dont know but it is, so the walk around with a feather in there hands.
omg it leaks here, (but not the other 10 places ) one time they found a vacuum port for a/c car but engine was in a mt car and the fitting is just there sucking air from the missing A/T box ,dang
but lets easy first, above is a fitting to any A/T 3speed, that must not suck ear to the a/T modulator on said trans.
the elf sees the feather bend, at the TB HOLE PORT. omg the TB is FUBAR.
dont you just love elves..
as the big famous man said , nature abhors a vacuum (he said that before neil armstrong ) but meant on earth.
It is a postulate attributed to Aristotle
those words are clear and true.
only engineers and mechanics and NASA (and others not desk bound) ,know what this means.
the hands on guys.
the vacuum loves to fail , the gaskets crack and suck in and leak, all mechanics know this, and learn how to find that.
if you have great skills a smoke tester can find leaks.
here the next one on my list busides injector cushion, hoses bad. or fell off.
or other badguy tricks on the TV stopsl. or just the TPS to jam the TV wow/
the IAC is top of my list
why, well its freakn old, ever see 20 year old coolant thermostat work,. well guess what same exact technology is there.
i say this because its right in reach with hands, before your eye, no hoses to ear below intake man.hard.
i find a way to block this port here
http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/Slide_Sh...Body1w.jpg
see that TB?
ignore the bolt jammed in there please; it's only for clearer photos
that port is 100% closed at hot idle, if NOT HE ECU and ISC go NUTS.
what will happen is a very fast hot idle no were near 800, and will racing fast with full engine power and no lean conditions ,if and if the MAF is good.
i all cases the maf must be good, or all bets off
the MAF is the key stone of the whole EFI here.
you have a vacuum leak (you prove it)
if i had to guess its not IAC leaking but the fresh air of mother earth leaking in directly causing lean burn, fueling
do not try to under stand any lean burn surge
ever, (OBD2 would tell me in 1 second its lean but we dont have 1996 car here0
the lean always cause surge
go to your old lawn mower, and turn the fuel mix screw in, see it surge.? yup love to surge.
gas engines carb or efi, lean gets you surges.
and can be amplified, buy the EFI, the ECU will see it lean then correct it and then fails, over and over, cause a surge
a lean engine runs slow
so if the EFI slams it rich(and faster RPM) as it can go ( and fails due to lack of command authority) then it fails and goes lean again and repeats over and over. on a carb car it can change from one metering circuit to the next and hunt back and forth that way.
if you had scan tool
see LFTF off, its a vacuum leak (all leaks here huge add)
if LTFT is ok, then the IAC is stuck or the ISC seat is leaking bad (yours is not you said)
that is all on leaks.
