High Idle when hot - low power on up hill

[SrgBog]

The 2 sensors that I touched during the isuue with the high idle (becides the ISC) is the MAF and the TPS.
About the TPS, first time that I removed it I didn't knew that when I put it back I will need to tune it... But finally I checked that it working and tuned it up when I put it back on.
About the MAF , when I removed the MAF - the inner part of the sensor was very dirty inside... So I started to clean it and when I cleaned it broke the small part inside the MAF that sticks at the middle ... I immediatelly glewed it back BUT I noticed that the angle that I glew it back is slight different from the angle that was before I broke it... Anyway I put it back on and the car was running same as before ... But for any case I ordered another chineese MAF from the internet - its not original but the car working with it at this time... And because it is Chineese - I think it will be good Idea to test its output...

[fixkick]

that maf has no name, so what you bought ,is unknown,

this one , is bad, never seen one (or heard of) work right yet,
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/china-maf...d-maf.html

this one, was sold new, and was never tested (final test) in the China factory.
reverse engineered it, and found that it was wired backwards
i corrected that error (gross) and it then had output.
but was not correct. at all speeds. (air flows)

some of the parts in side have no business inside any car. (ok for toys or science class experiments)

the only source of good mafs, i know, (beside real ones used) is at cardone

Click IN THAT LINK ABOVE, 92-95 example (see there full catalog, they are top grader rebuilder here)

good luck.

is your O2 sensor newer that 100,000 miles?

The 2 sensors that I touched during the isuue with the high idle (becides the ISC) is the MAF and the TPS.
About the TPS, first time that I removed it I didn't knew that when I put it back I will need to tune it... But finally I checked that it working and tuned it up when I put it back on.
About the MAF , when I removed the MAF - the inner part of the sensor was very dirty inside... So I started to clean it and when I cleaned it broke the small part inside the MAF that sticks at the middle ... I immediatelly glewed it back BUT I noticed that the angle that I glew it back is slight different from the angle that was before I broke it... Anyway I put it back on and the car was running same as before ... But for any case I ordered another chineese MAF from the internet - its not original but the car working with it at this time... And because it is Chineese - I think it will be good Idea to test its output...

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low power.?
if engine is ok
and spark ok
it's fueling !
(fuel pressure tests)
MAF tests.

here is my combined MAF plots, (engine had bad thermostat, takes for ever to warm up) lit blue line....
OBD2 SCANs with logging turned on.,... then Excel plotted at home.



the humps are me driving and shifting the 5peed.
the maf must go fully high, or power will be very low.
see how it tracks, TP throttle angles (lagged).
and vss (speed)
The MAF is the heart of this EFI system.. (the ECU measures air flow, and adds fuel to match it)

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the usa maf is
13800-58B00 (stamped on side clear) the hot wire sensor.

there is another MAF , used in some countries, i call it the plunger, (not hot wire) 13800-57B00 (it's really an AIR meter, not a MAF more like the AIR VANE types)

more facts on maf here
http://www.fixkick.com/buy-parts.html#MAF16

[SrgBog]

Thank you for your reply..
IF THE MAF IS BAD - ISN'T THE CEL SHOULD SHOW A PROPER DTC ?

The MAF that I bought is this one:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mass-Air-...53962.html

It looks pretty same as the bad one on your attached picture...

Anyway , I will try to put back the old original MAF and see if there any difference...

Also, for ant case I searced for the MAF on cardone.com - but there no price... Do you know what is the price of the good MAF sensor that fit to my car ?
http://www.cardone.com/Products/Product-...s%3a%3a%3a

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The wire colors on the OBD2 is:
5 - black
9 - brown with white line
16 - black wih white line

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By the way :
Please look at my attached picture...

Isn't it the EGR over there ?
This part is just behind my engine...

   
   

Also I just wanted to put your attention that on the previus message you wrote "cant be EGR you dont have one. market 56" - but on the message after I sent the body tag you wrote "market code 54 is Israel" - so maybe my car EGR after all ?

[fixkick]

no,
the computer only sees a MAF at 0v or stuck at 5v or 12v. (it runs on 12v and can do that, if worse case blow out)
the computer has no way to say gee air is flowing 10g/s why is maf a 5. (not possible)
no why ever.
the computer (PCM/ECM) trusts it 100% it can only see dead sensors, 100% completely dead.
the $25 , $1200 maf
the price alone tells you what you get, junk.

that is the makers catalog, no makers show prices,
why because they sell only wholesale to large buyers, in 1000s. and is Negotiable. (volume/price breaks)
type cardone, p/n in google see 1000s of stores selling them retail.
yours is 58B00, (hot wire)
the catalog lists them all.
how ever they do, custom requests. say you ECU is toast and no spares on self, so they do yours. on 1 by 1 with you.

EGR that was an Electric EGR
we dont get those until 1999. here. (or on j18/J20 engine here.
yours is unplugged, if its stuck open engine stalls. its a stepper motor driven EGR, just 1 part and magic to run it (software) so you do have EGR, no surprise this.

yes, no egr hose on top made me say that. sorry. I'm lazy and did not read every E56 page, i should yes... and will soon. fixing leaks here... rain.

my MAF page shows me testing it with a vacuum cleaner run backwards, a huge 15amp shop vac....
best i can do on a bench.
No obd2, (i have lots of tricks for it)
on car 4speed , i can only get , max maf readings in drive , brakes on.

with shop vac, get 3.0V out of maf. 20g/sec
in drive
parked brakes set hard, do the standard tranny stall test, wot, i get 3v, 20g/s

here is the suzuki spec, curve it. that i die in excel.
to get 4volts, you need the 1600cc engine sucking max air, there is no other way and up a hill to.. 55g/sec

i think this page I made is not anywhere else, for sure Hitachi does not publish it.

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got a volt meter?, measure 1 pin on maf
do so key on
idle
and then at stall test (brakes set hard, drive, wide open throttle for 3 sec, max) nobody in front of car, use wires from maf to you in cab.
use battery neg. post for ground. for best readings.with meter black lead.

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the dead maf forces ecu to limphome mode here, and runs rich as a pig, fouling spark plugs fast.

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the old maf is clearly marked with p/n , did you miss that?

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-58b00 is my guess.

the prefix is same on all mafs, by suz.

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one way never tried, is the usage of a gas engine powered leaf blower, to get 55g/s. bench tested (er,, lawn tested, lol)
crude yes.

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the engine sucks hardest up hill, at 95HP is max air flow.... but is chicken and egg deal, cant get 95HP with any weak maf .

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these cars are long in tooth
finding good used MAFs laying around, is like finding, gold.....
dont ask suzuki, you will not be happy.... ,"next unborn male child" is cost.

[SrgBog]

Thank you for your reply !
I put back my old glued MAF it seems like the engine likes it more and run better with it ...
As I wrote before I broked that part (attached picture) - and glewed back... But seems that I glewed it in a bit slight different angle:
   

Do you think that this is a big issue ? Or if I keep using my glewed MAF its OK ?


Today i visited my mechanic and he adjusted the ignition timing by moving the ignition distributor 1,2mm - and now the engine runs
much better , although now it seems that the second gear runs a bit longer than it was - till it switches to the third gear... Anyway to adjust it ? Or its normal?

Is it logic that the ignition timing needed adjustement because I messed with ISC?


Also tell me please , do you think that it is a good idea to take of the EGR for a cleaning? - will it make the engine run better?

[fixkick]

4sp has switch on the console, P/N n shifts soon for MPG, P shifts late for power,
the TV cable jammed or the TV valve on side of tranny stuck will cause, late shifting. in fact some call this the passing gear cable .
a weak engine, will always shift later. if true. unless, going down hill.

I can not speak for glued MAFs.
can you get 3v on the output pin doing the stall test?
the timing spark must be set with the freeze jumper or its all just a wasted effort, with no jumper the timing light bounces all over like crazy (normal)
see?
the isc and spark are not related.
but if isc is dead, and RPM is 1000 rpm you cant set timing.
because that is step 2 in the fsm instruction
1: hot engine 180F.
2: idle controls working right at 800pm (a bad isc , cant do it)
3: set freeze jump (jumper clip, even my 2004 had this)
4: set timing to spec.


the egr cleaned sure, really good idea.
1: pass smog tests. (NOX gasses)
2: more MPG,(1mpg?)
3: cooler running exhaust valves last longer.
4: no chance of engine ping/knock (detonations) and damage. from that. this engine has no knock sensor so the EGR is more important.

[SrgBog]

Sorry, I mistaked at the previous message the right question is this :

Is it logic that the ignition timing needed adjustement because I messed with TPS?

[fixkick]

the logic works like this, (setting spark timing)
first engine hot.
second:
then TPS idle switch must be closed or ISC is dead, the switch opens, means driver is driving, now... so there is no idle controls. if the switch is not closed the ecu thinks your are driving.

at idle switch closure, the ECU now actively (in loop) regulates idle. at 800 rpm (ecu does all that, the ISC is a slave valve.)
then rule 3, the ISC will be a 1000 rpm from idle inputs, A'/C on, and others. (the ecu does this)
rule 4? (no accessories on) just the engine running.

set the freeze jumper now , point the strobe lamp., note that the timing light, is no longer jumping ,around like crazy, this tells you, its all ok.
so set timing to spec now.

see freeze page
see bottom of page and title , freeze fail.
i cover all this. there.
every possible way. to fail
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML

fact
a broken , tps, or isc, or vacuum leaks does not change static timing calibration. (it's a physical gear drive) (only unclamping the distributor can you change static time)b
but if the freeze jump fails. there is no way to set static time. (well not easy)

you need to own a timing light to experience all that. a $20 tool.


good luck to you !

Sorry, I mistake at the previous message the right question is this :

Is it logic that the ignition timing needed adjustment because I messed with TPS?

[SrgBog]

THANK YOU !

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Am I understood it corectly ? - The freeze jumper is making a reset for the ignition timing data ?
(The freeze jumper technique - its like reset a digital casio watch and then adjust the time? )

[fixkick]

sorry, no , its not any kind of reset at all.
no math. answer (redux)
I can answer 10 ways,,, this is way2.

the ECU does 3 major things.
controls fuel..
controls spark creation and advance. (using tables)
controls idle (isc & a ECU loop)
think like its 3 computers, there. (it's really multitasking)
The freeze jumper just prevents table advance, it freezes the spark at 0 advance, so only the static set distributor advance is all the advance there is.
take your timing light at idle, see spark timing bounce like crazy (it does that to save fuel, and burn it efficiently)
you can not set spark timing when it bounces like that, see? its impossible. (like changing a flat tire on a moving car, impossible)
so suzuki added a jumper pin, to stop that bounce. ergo, timing freeze.



the spark computer, creates spark and times it perfectly at all RPMs' and engine loads. (this magic part is just a spark table.)
on old cars with no computers the Distributor has mechanical, vacuum advance plus centrifugal fly weights inside that advance spark timing,
not today, in 1991, Suzuki added that big job to ECU brain.
all this is covered here,
http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/basictuning.htm

the table looks like this.
this the left axis is engine load ,the bottom is RPM and the table numbers are spark advance, notice how none are 0.



when you insert the timing freeze jumper, to calirbate the distributor base static advance, all those numbers go to zero
or on suzuki only 800 column goes to 0. (that is why the FSM books says set it only hot and 800 rpm !)

at zero the mech can set timing, and there is no other way, exact to do so, fuel pump relay removed. (ask)

now if the ISC is busted, there will be no 800 rpm (rpm is out of control)
now if the TPS idle switch is mis-adjusted, there will be no ISC controls and idle again is out of control.
as is limphome mode, and all things listed on my why is spark timing bouncing... on timing set page. below.

the steps are clear see here.
the 5 steps here.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-procedure.html

see that, ?
see step 3, if the idle switch is dead, the ISC will be dead, and 800 RPM will not work.

i cant answer if your mech, went to school or even if his school even covered 1990s cars.??????
on today's cars this is ALL GONE. (ask)