High Idle when hot - low power on up hill

[SrgBog]

Hello everybody I'm new here...
Have this problem with my Suzuki Vitara 97' - any help will be very appreciated...
I live in Israel so its a pretty hot weather here...
When I start my car the idle jumps to around 1500 - when I am pushing the gas pedal the RPM jumps even higher and not going down even when the engine is hot... As I want to start to drive - I changing the gear from "P" mode to "D" the RPM goes down - seems that the gear connection with the engine stopping it from being higher... So it drops to around 1000 RPM..
When I disconnect the ISC electronic connection the idle is drop down - BUT sometimes it may be around the 800 RMP and sometimes its return to be high again..

Well I checked the engine for air leaks - no leaks...
So today I cleaned the ISC - I noticed when I blow into the coolant liquid hoses there is no air flow... is it suppose to be like that or something is stuck there ?

Is this the problem of the high idle ?

What can be the reason of the low power on up hill ?

[fixkick]

1997, car, does engine have 4 injectors or 1, called MPI or TBI.. a photo of the engine is a big big win here, outside usa. huge factor in getting correct answers.!!!
does car have MAF sensor at air cleaner, if yes, that is MPI, and they work in opposite fashions, (tech, functions)
16valves or 8,engine.?
ive no idea what market code that car would be.
but its not USA< and if not USA car, its dont have OBD2 , port at right knee, with our 16pin, DLC test port.
id need the firewall , chassis tag photo or the VIN if it has a VIN number.
that valve is 100% closed in your hand or in car not running.
100%
it opens with 12vdc, per my web page, type ISC in the search box. huge hits there...
first hit
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/IAC-E-tests.html

Hello everybody I'm new here...
Have this problem with my Suzuki Vitara 97' - any help will be very appreciated...
I live in Israel so its a pretty hot weather here...
When I start my car the idle jumps to around 1500 - when I am pushing the gas pedal the RPM jumps even higher and not going down even when the engine is hot...
As I want to start to drive -
I changing the gear from "P" mode to "D" the RPM goes down - seems that the gear connection with the engine stopping it from being higher...
SUre does that is engine load, stalled wheels. a huge load and the idle regulation rule in drive, are different.


So it drops to around 1000 RPM..
When I disconnect the ISC electronic connection the idle is drop down - (to where, need RPM number) the hot engine idles at 800 RPM
unless ECU idle up pins go true and then is 1000 rpm (lots if pins on ecu can do that and get 1000rpm, but 1000 is 1000, not 1500
the ecu controls idle at all times hot, not cold, as the IAC does cold only.

BUT sometimes it may be around the 800 RMP and sometimes its return to be high again..
800RPM is hard coded inside the ECU, there are NO RPM calibrations on cars, with EFI.


Well I checked the engine for air leaks - no leaks...
So today I cleaned the ISC - I noticed when I blow into the coolant liquid hoses there is no air flow.. (its clogged for sure) just clean the water path.
these 2 hoses. are to heat the trottle body, not the ISC, that is purpose.
the IAC< is thermal valve only (no wires) and must not be packed up and fail to flow hot water 180F water, if not it stuck open and 1500 rpm is what you get or more.

. is it suppose to be like that or something is stuck there ?
the air hose will be closed, due to the spring inside. \
the water paths on isc and IAC both must flow water free and air blown there ,in hand or hoses off.

Is this the problem of the high idle ? (can be on IAC for sure ,but not ISC but it must flow water for better cold starts.)O

What can be the reason of the low power on up hill ? ( that be other causes) Idle speeds have nothing to do with full engine power, after all IDLE controls are canceled off idle.

there are many cause, not just 2,
here ill lest them again.,..... (only fate or luck governs what can happen never , trends, or what other cars did or, worse rumors or ,my car did this)
engine not hot.
throttle cables set wrong.
its not air leaks, because your engine has 16valves (G16b means 16valves ) or KV engine, the body tag tell me what is in the car.

so bad idle
bad engine power, (we fix this first. because no EFI system can control idle correctly if the engine power is lacking. how could it? )
the idle controls can not just invent (create) engine power, it must be THERE.

so lets start over
photo of engine. (out side usa some still run CARBS. up to 2006)
and the chassis tag.
and post low engine power. (rpm at idle is last , dead last on all cars)

here is one tag

http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/IAC-E-tests.html


see that 24 there, what is your 24?
24 is market, 1 of 53 markets and vast differences word wide. (each country has laws(long list) and that is what market is)
the above shows drive line codes for car, i can read all of those. can.

---

tell me is the cam timing belt 19 years old
if yes, that is very bad.
its a 100km part.
if the cam belt slips
the technician checks spark timing, and if way off,
the belt slipped, do not play with spark timing now, fix the belt first , then like magic spark goes back to spec.
we use timing light first.
using the timing freeze jumper.,
seen here
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML

do it at 800 rpm hot. (some how)

ok its 4wd and has tach, all ours do. 4wd.

---

rpm wrong. hot.
engine not at 180F or more. 82C up.
throttle cables set wrong. up to 3 cables. must be set loose.
ECU in limhome , mode, and when so,,, cancels all idle controls now. scan it or get the flash codes.
ECU idle up pins true, (a.c on, p/s overload) and more.
on 8v engines, (ONLY) aNY AIR LEAKS,, ON 16V AIR leaks cause lean and RPM DROP, so... id love a photo of your engine..... sure would........???????
ECT reads wrong, if it read like 150F? , 1500 rpm is normal as that is cold idle speeds, dictated by THIS VALVE.
hot water not flowing trough the IAC (location not same on 8v as 16v but work the same way)
air leaks on 8v give full engine power
air leaks on 16v goes lean, and low engine power, and RPM.
so..... what engine is there, i need a photo outside usa, as inside USA it has only one 16v MPI engine. just one, but other countries, 2 engines, and 3 or more fueling systems.
more... sure, isc leaking air.
more, iac leaking air at 180F, (82C)
if rpm is 1000, then ECU is in idle up mode
there is no hot 1500 modes, ever. (means failures)

loss of power:
needs a tuneup.
fuel pressure low
MAF dirty or bad.
clogged, CAT converter.
bad engine. (compression not over 150psi warm to hot) my 16v does 180psi hot, at sealevel are you under 1000 feet altitude?
cam belt slipped, see psi above drop to as low as 80?
bad spark or spark wires, cap and rotor.
injectors leaking
FPR bad.
there are simple tests for each case.

i need a photo of engine and tag first.
i cant fix cars blind, is why.

[SrgBog]

WOW, I am so impressed of your knowledge about all this !
(can I borrow it for a couple of days ;D )
Thank you very much for your detailed answer.
I am sorry that did not replied earlier - I did not received any
email that telling I have a reply to my thread... So just now I entered
to check if somebody replied and I did not received a mail about it..
Just noticed that I have a subscribe to this thread option - just applied it...

Anyway here is a picture of my engine that I had in my phone...
and I am going now to take a picture of the tag...

The cam timing belt was replaced about 2 years ago.

---

[attachment=459]
Hello,
Here is the picture of the tag...

Is there any way to check if the CAT converter is OK ?

[SrgBog]

Another question please ,
please see my attached picture - is there suppose to be an air flow when I blow into the coolant hoses of the ISC ?

Because, I took off my ISC nd it is don't have an air flow thru those coolant hoses...

Also, I disconnected the electric connector from the ISC and its not help to the high idle - the idle is arround 1500 rpm when the engine is hot

   

[fixkick]

WOW, I am so impressed of your knowledge about all this !
(can I borrow it for a couple of days ;D )
Thank you very much for your detailed answer.
I am sorry that did not replied earlier - I did not received any
email that telling I have a reply to my thread... So just now I entered
to check if somebody replied and I did not received a mail about it..
Just noticed that I have a subscribe to this thread option - just applied it...

Anyway here is a picture of my engine that I had in my phone...
and I am going now to take a picture of the tag...

The cam timing belt was replaced about 2 years ago.

---

Hello,
Here is the picture of the tag...

Is there any way to check if the CAT converter is OK ?

yes, the default is no emails... kinda odd but that is the default.till tuned on...

your welcome. glad to HELP you you,.
looks like normal 16v engine, no cruise, no a/t (only 1 throttle cable)
super nice body tag... very clear.
not made at CAMI, but in real Japan, factory, CODE 1.
market code 54 is Israel
suzuki FACTORY plant 1, Not sure. but is in Japan somewhere, 4 = Iwata, 1 somewhere else in Japan..
year code V. 1997
4 speed automatic trans.
16valves , MPI EFI , no carb as many had.

here is your full decode.

---

this market code. 54, is same ECU as in e22= Germany
has no EGR (very good can't stick and stall engine) also means custom spark timing or cam to prevent engine, ping/knock,(or lower compression)_
and has only one 02 sensors. if at all. (some JDM G16a have no 02) yours is not a JDM.
see the 0xygen sensor at end of exhaust header? ??
has EVAP. system (smog vents)

nice work finding the chassis tag...
car is 7 car made in year 1997 , my guess made, July1, 1996, in Japan. Fiscal year.

i restored 3 of these cars and helped, others, many others...
have large collection of data/books etc. on them.
The G16 MPI is only hard, to diagnose, with injector leaks, clogs or induction air leaks,(vacuum)
the ecu has no immobilizer, a good thing.
ok, i can now see all parts used in e54 market.

[SrgBog]

Thank you !

Yes it has O2 sensor - looks pretty clean and new..

[fixkick]

just pinch the isc air hose. when idle controls fail. hot.

the 2 hot water hoses, both same temp? are hot.? if not, they are blocked or engine really is not 180F. or more.
the 1 cold hose is air hose. fresh.
air flows, from main fresh air tube (air cleaner end as source)
to the ISC and from there to the ISC flange and then into the box plenum. (this is primary idle air now,hot)
this is how it regulates idle.
the ECU does all the work , modulating the the ISC coil 200 times a second.

The IAC, under the TB needs to be at 180f< it closes about 150F. so if it's not full hot, due to water hose blockage, it will stick open. and engine will scream hot.
1500 is normal cold because the IAC is open. then. lots of extra air cold.

---

see here


the water path is free at all times, no blockages ever.
the air path is blocked key off or in hand.

12vdc opens the valve.

http://www.fixkick.com/videos/FLV-all/showtime.html#ISC

hear the sound it makes,?
and can see it move. in 1 video.?
you can also see how far its piston moves in my video.
it can leak closed a tiny bit, all this old do. due to the rubber ring seat , wear.

as seen in my skeleton photos

---

btw when hot rpm is 1500
this means, the ECU has lost control of idle speeds, one of its big jobs (besides spark and fueling calcs)

[SrgBog]

My coolant hoses have no air pass between them ... so it seems that the ISC need to be fixed first...
So I am going to put it off and try to clean it better this time.

About the low power issue - the problem may be the CAT converter ... So I am going to check that issue aslo..

Will inform as soon as I will done.

Thanks again for all the help !

[fixkick]

yes, that is clogged. very bad that. it its a First order failure !

My coolant hoses have no air pass between them ... so it seems that the ISC need to be fixed first... (use a piece of wire, and rod it out)
So I am going to put it off and try to clean it better this time. (this path blockage, kills the IAC too. they are in series that path)
Please keep in mind, that these parts must work , if not the ECU can go nuts and go to limphome mode, causing
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/LimpHome/failsafe.html
retarded spark advance
too rich mixtures
low power
RPM limits'
and idle controls shut down (see my failsafe page?)



About the low power issue - the problem may be the CAT converter , the cat back pressure is easy to check .

#5 find melted cat and so does vacuum test #2 below. page.

http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/cat-con-tests.html
... So I am going to check that issue aslo..

Will inform as soon as I will done.

Thanks again for all the help !

back to water flow dead, and why not to ignore this.
see my diagram.
see how i added the 3 missing parts to the suzuki drawing?
first see the start of flow, at the left red dot, under the thermostat housing below, the manifold
this most not be clogged first.
note carefully they water flows in a series path , see that?
and if 1 device (red objects) clogs. all 3 things there go dead.
THE KEY object there is IAC, if it goes dead, it sticks open
if it sticks open the ECU will go nuts, after all its not programmed to handle that gross failure.
The RPM races, is the first clue.
if it goes to limphome, the power is lost if not in limphome mode. then there are other failures.
never seen one of these cars with out, many failures. all ignored
now more, sure, if the engine is in limphome mode, the cat gets RED hot and melts the cat,
but this is not a cause, it's a victim of above of RICH misfire.

http://www.fixkick.com/Cooling-engine/16...aths2w.JPG

power lost has many causes. (engine , not trans transmission slip.)
1: sure cat melted (vacuum test is most easy of all)
2: limphome tops list on vitara, sidekick/trackers. G16s. (gross power loss is a feature if this mode)
3: misfiring , caused by #2 or 4, or 5, 6 or 8 below.
4: bad spark or flooding .
5: too high fuel pressure (FPR stuck, no longer regulates, pressure gauge tests, see bad FPR here. http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/FPress-reg1.html
6: injectors leaking, or even clogged.
7: weak MAF or just dirty.
8: low compression, due to cam timing belt not changed at 60kmiles (100km)


TEST one was never done.?
the diagmode
insert the diagnostic jumper clip in the DLC connector under hood.,
key on engine flashes 12s does it
start engine ,still flash 12s?

your OBD1 car has flash codes, our 97 here in USA is OBD2, we invented OBD2. here.so.....

http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/CEL.html#OBD1codes

i call it the paper clip tests.

this is always first. (after checking fuses)

---

cat tests (pasted off my cat terst page)
quote:
My Quick CatCon test , using a simple vacuum guage: ( cheap , fast and effective, and no burned fingers)

Warm up and idle engine.
Plug a Vacuum guage into any plenum vacuum port , do not create any leaks. (my Vac. at idle is 19 inches of Mercury 19 HG.) I use the EVAP port. Do not use the EGR port.
Race engine to about 2500 RPM, and record the vacuum. ( if vacuum is significantly lower at 2500 than idle Cat is bad [or exhaust blockage]).
Now slam the throttle shut fast, to idle. Observe Guage action.
The vacuum should instantly raise about 5 HG above #3 reading and then drop to Idle vacuum observed at #2. ( if not , suspect CAT blockage ,or more rarely muffler blockage)
Many say this is one of the most accurate tests for a CAT.
end quote.


if you have used a vacuum gauge before, you know what is normal. (experience)
about 20 inches of steady vacuum at idle, no bouncing allowed, idle rpm steady. (hot 800 rpm)
if you gun the throttle on a good engine, the vacuum drops fast very fast, but with a melted cat IT does, not drop fast, because it cant pump air much.
if you race the rpm now, with hand on throttle, gauge in hand, and then let the throttle (hand off) snap back, to stops, the RPMs fall fast and vacuum can hit 26 inches,
if not the Cat is clogged.
Vacuum will act sluggish and wrong, on melted cats.

but this assumes what?
engine is good !, timing belt not slipped, and compression over 150PSI (below 1000 feet altitude)

the Basics rules on engine are:
good engine. (compression ok, vacuum ok, egr main not stuck open, cat not melted killing the engines ability to pump air)
good spark (timing too)
good fueling, in that order.

and more
if ECU is in limphome, spark and fueling will be wrong, by design. (key word there is LIMP)
LIMP means reduced power, but car runs, (my custom , ECU just stops running, with fails, like this, so LIMP has value.)

[SrgBog]

Thank you !
Well, I tried to clean the ISC coolant path with a wire + carb cleaner ... - but it so stuck inside ... So I am doing electrolysis clean to it (or something like that )- (saw on you tube)...
Hope it will help.
Also I will read all the materials that you recommended and will keep fixing