(03-17-2020, 01:55 PM)3Waggintails Wrote: 1997 Suzuki Sidekick JS, 1.6, 5 spd ML 4 dr 97k original miles
By now, FixKick and all else are probably as frustrated as I am with this continued saga. I am utterly at my wits end and so angry and frustrated.
See Posts: Temperature Sensor or Throttle Body
https://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/...p?tid=2600
and
Throttle Body/TPS
https://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/...p?tid=2602
So car is still in the shop. Went in to diagnose and repair a PO400 code that would not die and misfire at idle ( I call it a hiccup but car will statrt and idle at 1500, then 1200 then 1000 then probably about 850 then drop to 500) as well as intermittent hesitation issue when cruising (the 2 threads above out line the dirty details). Drive a few minutes (2-3 miles and no problems except when you stop at light etc.) Idle initiall 850-1000RPM
when you first stop then drops to 500 while you wait for light. Green light, no issue in acceleration. No hesitation. Good response. Then when cruising with steady foot on pedal, intermittent hesitation, more foot, gresponds and goes. Drive little further. repeats. May do for 2-5 miles driving. After that, return trip home. No more hesitation incidents. Only when stop Idle about 850, drop to 500 RPMS.
Fast forward to today.
At last posting, the shop had replaced my throttle body with my spare throttle body and TPS (my 1997 car apparently had a 1995 throttle body/TPS out of the factory - who knew??!!) The one I purchased used was the correct throttle body for my 97 Kick). Last word was this measure failed. The car still having the intermittent hesitation issue when cruising at normal operating temperature and idle at a stop would drop to 500! Same as before when it first went into the hospital.
I went to shop today to talk to mechanic in person and drive car and see for myself. Questioning the mechanic to see what had been done thus far, before the throttle body and TPS swapped he stated:
1) smoke test -good
2) Vacum test - good
3) confirmed spark plugs removed and gap set correctly
4) timing has supposedly been checked and good
5) Fuel pressure checked - good
6) TPS calibrated - not just slapped on
7) ISC was cleaned when they cleaned original throttle body, intake manifold, etc. - told it wasnt very dirty at all.
I am told currently no codes and no pending codes.
8) He now states he never thought was TPS and does not think EGR issue anymore. States he thinks it is MAF and or MAP and if not ECM!!! States he never thought TPS but his boss (owner of shop thought TPS) no test - just symptoms.
Shocked, I go to drive my car.
Start up from cold (CEL no longer on and based on what he said about drive cycles since THrottle body and TPS swap it would have popped by now- my experience so far ...hmmm ), outside ambient temp about 70 degrees. Start up and RPMs about 1500, I wait and RPMS drop to about 1200. Wait more, RPMS about 1100, wait more, RPMS about 1000.
Out of curiosity, I turn on a/c compressor (no fan) and RPMS drop to 800. Turn of a/c switch back to 1000 RPMS.
Temperature guage has not moved at all. At the 1000 RPMS, I do not really notice my stutter or misfire as fixkick corrects me.
Pull out to drive car and drive about 1/4 mile. Temp guage starting to move. Stop at light to get on interstate, idle is about 800 RPMS. Temp guage now 1/2 way between cold and middle (normal operating temp) of guage for my car.
No hesitation, good acceleration, etc. Get on interstate and drive hard. Want to get to full operating temp and then cruise and check for hesitation. Not sure of mileage/distance but drove at operating temperature about 3 miles and exited interstate. While waiting at light, RPMS initially about 800 the suddenly, as usual with my issue, drop to 500 RPMS - can feel engine idle rough. But wait! RPMS bounce up to 1000 for a second then then drop back to 500!!!
On the way back to the shop with steady (cruising) speed gradually increasing, there comes my hesitation for a brief second. Apply more pedal, car responds and goes. Happens a few times on way back. If I let off pedal (no pressure a second then re-apply - get hesitation. Push pedal a tad more goes. It is very suttle. Get back to shop and sit with engine running and RPMS 500. Engine shuddering. Turned it off and went to get mechanic and report.
Start up for mechanic with hood open and he watches and I check RPMS - 500. He now states that he thinks MAF is intermittently failing. Said code for MAF popped a couple of times but next check nothing. Unplugs MAF and
engine stumbles and shudders and then RPMS start to climb - go to 1000 and pretty much stay there. He says engine should have died. I dont know any better and I am really confounded.
He states he now thinks either MAF and or MAP (there is NO MAP sensor only MDP EGR ONLY SENSoR) sensor issue and at last ECM! Really???!!!
there is no MAP sensor on this car that runs FUELING like the 8valve does, sorry but this MDP only is for EGR testing p0400 . that is why they call it MDP and not MAP !!!
I tell him some of Fixkick's suggestions for testing etc and also state we need to kill EGR (golf tee in Fixkick lingo) .
He says no longer thinks EGR issue. Still does not golf tee vac line to EGR. (if main does not stick open , then then MAIN EGR can NOT CAUSE 500RPM)
Further discussion and head scratching...he says have you done a timing belt? I said was done almost a year ago (4/1/19) and car was running great until I started trying to defeat PO400 after 5 years driving no problems. Foolish me!!!! Said he was tempted to pull timing cover and check. If off 1 tooth.....
see timing belts done wrong many times, (doing it the wrong way or using wrong marks or setting the tension like fan belt (dead wrong that)like doing it like a fan belt super tight and then later the belt shreds, or jumps tooth cogs ) the book to do this does not LIE)
The EGR defeated TEE test (mine) is only A TEST< to prove the EGR MAIN DOES NOT stick open, at any time for sure coming to a stop , as it is commanded to close. for sure.
If sure EGR does not stick then no need to GOLF TEE the hose. sure.
Wouldn't it have been an issue way before now? ( not if INTERMITTENT )!
(sure bad ISC sure BAD maf both can be intermittent )
think about heat, how heat (thermodynamics) and how when things get hot ,metal expands hot, and ISC jams or for the MAF , fails only hot , (hot means normal hot temps 180f)
The MAF can fail for heat, or vibration or be dead or fully wild and intermittent,
Been driving a year til I started to try and battle PO400 and then got bad gas (water). P0400 is only a detraction, here, forget p0400 , we can fix that way far later, LAST IS BEST.
The problem with P0400s is the CEL glows and the owner ignores it but in fact other key errors area there, set, P0400 is chicken little cried wolf and every one stopped listening.
You replace MAIN right? (EGR MAIN is BRAND NEW,so if true will not stick nor leak now !)
EGR mAINS that stick cause 400-500 RPM on all car , even done so on purpose in my stall test page EGR..
So now what? I am still without car and apparently same problem...... FIX 500 RPM fix that focus on WHAT YOU KNOW IS WRONG , DIAGNOSE THAT.
Said code for MAF popped a couple of times but next check nothing. (if this happens , the maf is bad, or the connector pins to it rusty and green with corrosion)
The ECU only reports 2 errors for MAF< dead, stuck high, and dead stuck low. (not weak )
Unpluggling any MAF and (and will cause above to be stored in DTC memory) P0102?
engine stumbles and shudders and then RPM'S start to climb - go to 1000 and pretty much stay there. (yes, called LIMPHOME) and is NORMAL FOR YOUR ACT !
the FSM shows you that and DTC is IN Limphome and the page there tells you the mAF is dead tells you the ECU EMULATES THE DEAD MAF, and idle controls END, and engine goes rich fuel mix, and more, read up on LIMPHOME mode, best it to AVOID that. (it also can melt the CAT if done too long)
The #1 purpose of SENSOR Emulation modes are so car can be driven to a shop not towed.. that is its purpose, only..
He says engine should have died. (he is just guessing, or thinking this car is some non OBD Car. like VW. from 1979?)
HE IS WRONG, the MAF dead turns the CEL lamp on , and DTC P102 sets and LIMPHOME mode has many bad effects not just one, and RPM controls go dead, in LIMP.
The maf dead turns on MAF EMULATION mod, that is a fact, and he does not know that I SEE..
Gee I sure hope that P0102 code was not CAUSED by him pulling its connector, as that Be 100% NORMAL, the code DTC end the emulation effects , all are. and more....
The limphome limits spark timing, idle controls dead, and cause wasted fuel lots. injections rates are NOW CRUDE in LIMP MODE< for sure.
also the bad effects doing this are less in 96+ then 1995 and older, the new OBD2 is smarter and runs better in LIMP mode, by OBD2 new DESIGN
if the MAF error pops driving from none to P0102 . (as in not molested, this error happens, yes, then that is REAL)
P0102 or P0103 , are MAF dead codes.. both, stuck low or stuck high there are HARD codes, low codes # means CATASTROPHIC ERROR Codes means fix me first CODES...
He said maf codes, with no code given, nor how he got it, parked, driving or rapping side of MAF or?.... pulling jacks there..?
Cardone sells, rebuilt MAFs. via car stores.(<this is Ecatalog not a store) or sold here, or here searched
$175 approx , top quality them.
P0102.. = bad maf, bad wires to maf, bad pins on maf plug , sure bad ECU, but is last. the maf test is 5minutes work at 500rpm, 5 minutes and save $500.... seems no brainer to me..
all it takes is voltmeter for sure P0102, P0103 set.for sure. Part # 74-10033
if any persons unplug a sensor and then does not reset the OBD2 DTC codes, those errors can show up for vast driving cycles. do not pull sensors , then fail to clear the errors you created, (using a scan tool button clear) or you will spend $1000 on parts not needed, I PROMISE you..
to clear codes one more way, easy is pull the DOME fuse for full minute key off,. and put it back, this clears ECU DTC memory.. all things there DTC )
500 RPM is caused by a sticking ISC< or ECU is setting other CODES you MISSED, any time the engine acts funny, (low crazy low 500 rpm happens) scan the ECU..
scan it and ignore, P0400 , we can fix P0400s later, but not now, P0400s is hard work (can be and huge labor,) and best done last.
SCAN the ECU, ok, learn to do that, see what other errors are there and ALL OTHER ERRORS ARE VERY IMPORTANT , not just ghosts, Important unless playing sensor pull games..
the hard errors, can happen in 1 second flat, like pulling the MAF< ECT , or the like..
learn to scan any time , for sure a hot engine,
- ENGINE MISFIRES (P030x codes)
- RPMs HOT are wrong. 500 is dead WRONG.. scan it now, at 500RPM failing, and check ISC fully.. clean it. too.
- ENGINE power lacks
- ENGINE bogs, but recovers, fast at WOT right foot..
- ENGINE hesitates. but recovers fast..
- engine burns too much fuel (gee your O2 front is dead, , bingo, that's wasted fuel but I do not know 02 (B1S1) is bad for sure, no live data posted driving 40MHP steady
Personally I'd test the mAF and find cause of 500RPM that be first. if scanning and driving does not find hidden codes, (means intermittent)
i'd test the ISC even bench tested..
the ISC must open 12vdc applied and close valve, no 12vdc connected, and not stick or jam.. it is just an air valve, solenoid driven..
Recap:
- find cause of 500 rpm. (do the tests. I even scope mine and see if the signals to it are correct or dead) Scan the ECU for any errors not P0400...
- forget p0400s, until next week or next year (lol) the valve is closed, be happy it is..... yes the EGR function is failing, , maybe or not. don't care now.
advanced thoughts?here is what ISC signals look like, on this car.. HIGH volts is open and low is closed, 200 times a second the longer it stays high the faster the IDLE RPM.if this was to be dead, the ECU is messed up or is in limphome mode (that is why only scanning the ECU tells you what IT is doing.) HOT ENGINE, AC OFF..
OBD2 ways and means
if a code sets and tells you sensor X is bad.
replace sensor X ( if ECT fails check thermostat first)
and last reset the ECU DTC codes or pull dome fuse.
last drive the car and see of DTC codes return. DTC means diagnostic trouble codes.. there must be none, P0400, last and the FSM tells you that, too..
FSM = factory service manual. seen it in sticky post 1 on this BBS page.1..
FYI
P0400 can be hard job and expensive to cure, ( I can for sure tell you how , and in order for easy jobs to harder and cheaper to more expensive sure CAN)
it has 5+ major technologies at play here,
Electric (ECU commanded VSV) (egr is offline at idle and WOT)
Vacuum ported, can clog. (clean TB)
Vacuum modulation, (mod valves) not just one on this car,....
CAT back pressure, to make MOD work at all, no CAT present the EGR is dead.
Long exhaust path to get EGR flows working from exhaust port 4 to TB mono port 1. long hard ugly carbon mess here, (I check this last)
The first test is the stall test on my EGR page.. if this fails, the exhaust path is dead.. carbon packed for sure,the mono port up top is super easy first cure. check.
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