A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot.

[zukitrek]

Fix did you get to check my last report on my idle issue? Let me know what you come up with, 2k miles away, if my findings help you in any way.

Javier

[fixkick]

wrong pins.....
and the measurement is across the 2 pins of ISC.
the wiring is no secret. its clearly here.
see this? blue-black is 12vdc power. and lt.green-black is other wire,. you are connecting to the DLC freeze pins, why are you doing that?
i wanted you to measure the ISC pins directly. this is the signal that drivers the ISC, directly. and get it to year 7vdc.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/92-95MPI-eng-...e-huge.png

the steps are here.


yes, i can answer why its dead, (was)
the bleed screw was tampered with.,. if someone screws it in too far, the ISC can not correct this error. if extreme.
on a hot engine there are only 2 sources of air. the bleed and the ISC. so.. if the bleed is closed fully (or near) the ISC many may not get you to 800 rpm.
see? also the iSC can be dirty inside, blocking this air path or air hose that feeds it same, blockages, or partial.
what matters is that both the isc works and can breath, and then the bleeds screw is set to 50% duty cycle.
this 50% means , its in the center of its, range ( say +300 and -300 rpm range (there is no spec) but when in the center of its range, it can in fact regulate
RPM under ALL conditions. yours was set wrong.
try to keep mind 2 facts.
the isc can only open 100% and not more, and will be less is the path there is dirty (gummed up. or blockages)
the isc can not close more than 100% so if there are air leaks (bleeds wide open) then the ECU closes, it 100% and it might not reach 800 rpm.
this is how the ISC works , 200 times a second , in fact. (when i say ISC i mean the ECU+ISC (the form an electronic servo together) the ISC is a slave to the ECU.

i you read the FSM it shows using the DLC to set duty cycle but you dont have the custom tool for that. no one does.
one more fact, the dynamic range of the ISC is not published, by suzuki.
it depends on huge list of factors (variables) heat, altitude, air temps, engine oil thickness., engine age (power) and such. (even air humidity)
use the + 300/-300 range. so 800 -300 is 500 rpm and 800+300 is 1100 rpm, see? most times its more than that.

here is my duty cycle page....
the DLC pin marked DUTY only works with the Suzuki Duty meter (current mode) tool , no such tools can be found. so we skip the FSM and use a DC volt meter or a scope or a meter that has Duty on the dial.
the we abandon the DUTY pin. totally, see why, (?)
then connect the DC> voltmeter on the actual ISC pins, (backprobing technique) ONE PIN IS 12VDC THAT RUNS THE ECU and other pin is the ISC driver transistor inside the ECU. (the real deal here, we are measuring the DUTY directly here)
SEE" BEGIN " here.
http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/dutycycl...e-air.html


any time hot 800 rpm fails to HOLD, that means the ISC servo system is dead. totally
one why to cause that is to have, the idle switch stuck open....
or have spark timing way off, say , advanced.
if you read the FSM , the idle speeds and spark timing are both related, due to rule 2,> the timing cant bet set (freezed) with idle not at spec. 800.
chicken and egg issue that.

[fixkick]

http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/dutycycl...html#Begin


low idle has many causes.
and if there is cause, then we fix cause first then set duty cycle.

low idle causes. (besides, isc dead or shut down as yours was)
Cam timing retarded
spark timing same and is cause by cam timing (distrib runs off CAM)
egr leaks.
bleed screw cranked 100% CW closed.
engine running very lean (bogs and power loss, and RPM drops.)
engine misfiring.... (runs slower)

if something is very wrong or 2 things. and engine power is very lacking, the ISC may fail to correct that.
but if the engine is timed, right and power is good, and not misfiring
then the ISC works 100% but in all cases needs to be calibrated,
the duty cycle setting is 50%, yours was NOT.

---

setting idle duty is last.
read my page to see why , it explains all that.
see the "vast" topic there, what causes the ISC to fail (or lose control)
if engine works perfectly?
then set the 2 pins to 7vdc hot, and be done.
not at the DLC but the ISC pins. (nothing unplugged,) hot engine.

some folks just turn the bleed till 800 locks in, then find it fails in DRIVE, so the fiddle again. and again.
how you do this is your call.
i use a scope.
others use a meter, some meters do work. and some meters newer have a duty mode, and that can work too.

---

im clueless to this answer

"I see blue/red wire and a black wire."
where might that be?

---

my guess now, is you have never drove a fully running right sidekick or vitara.?
one that has a working ISC.!

i never would have guessed that. but sure can happen.
that is why i kept asking for accurate RPM numbers!

as you might not know, the ECU is hard coded for 800 exactly (+-50 rpm) hard hard coded,! (hot, a/c off and P/s not in overload)
so if its off more that 50 RPm, then i know the SERVO system is DOWN.

see?
accurate readings matter, on cars.
as is noting that idle regulation is DEAD.

at hot idle regulation works 100% perfect.
even with a huge engine load change, from park to drive.
huge.
if not ?,its broken.

---

THE PROCESS....
the cold start rpm in about 1500, (Faster in Alaska , IAC rules roost here, the physics of WAX)
the engine runs and coolant warms as coolant nears 150F the IAC goes dead closed WAX expands.
the RPM at 1500 drops slowly as water warms and ISC closes bit by bit. (all by IAC actions....)
Bam IAC is closed.
now only the bleed screw and ISC , supply ALL AIR to the engine, every bit if air, .....
and the ECU goes to ISC servo mode NOW, and when this happens the ECU now commands 800 rpm, this is how it works.
800 exactly hot. and regulates like MAD.
if not , there is a problem.
this servo is a closed loop idle speed control system, and runs at 200 times a second, fast.
the ECU may also (many do) tweak spark timing on the FLY to keep idle at 800 exactly..
so 800 is a magic number, it's hard coded, (and 1000 RPM in idle up mode)
using a real tachometer tool , helps greatly, as the dash tach is OLD and really just a toy, analog tach, seen many lie like mad.

[zukitrek]

see this? blue-black is 12vdc power. and lt.green-black is other wire,. you are connecting to the DLC freeze pins, why are you doing that?
i wanted you to measure the ISC pins directly. this is the signal that drivers the ISC, directly. and get it to year 7vdc.
Now I understand the meaning of being blind as you not being here. I did uses the wires at the ISC connector just that I did not see right the wire colors? But I must have done it wrong. Ill send pic today as to the colors, but I checked them again and saw the green/black wire. But nothing was connected to the DLC freeze pins. All was at the 2 wires out of the ISC.

one why to cause that is to have, the idle switch stuck open....
or have spark timing way off, say , advanced. Where is that switch? Read about it these last couple of days. Spark timing I doubt it, but I can check again.

is you have never drove a fully running right sidekick or vitara.?
one that has a working ISC.!You got that right, thats is why Im asking you, otherwise why bother?

i never would have guessed that. but sure can happen.
that is why i kept asking for accurate RPM numbers!

as you might not know, the ECU is hard coded for 800 exactly (+-50 rpm) hard hard coded,! (hot, a/c off and P/s not in overload)
so if its off more that 50 RPm, then i know the SERVO system is DOWN.

see?
accurate readings matter, on cars.
as is noting that idle regulation is DEAD.

at hot idle regulation works 100% perfect.
even with a huge engine load change, from park to drive.
huge.
if not ?,its broken.

OK. Will check again tonight. And report back to you.

Gracias!!!

---

One question, does the back probe position matter or not? Meaning can i insert Positive prob to blue/black and neg to green/black and vise versa? No right? If not then I was doing it half OK or half wrong. My positive was indeed at the blue/black wire from the ISC but negative probe was at engine ground. Maybe my reason for not getting it right?

[zukitrek]

Just so you are clear. Here is the diagram I used from you site where I got the wire color legend (assuming Idle air control in the diagram refers to ISC).
Here as screenshot of it.

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/e...iew&id=198

Let me know if indeed are the wires to be back probed.

Regards.

[fixkick]

yes ,right wires... (did you tell me before you are color blind?, sorry if you are, very sorry)
the idle switch tells the ECU, I'm at idle now, and the ISC goes online for idle. servo.
the TPS idle switch. (all cars do this, the j18/20 sees 0.5v on throttle angle and goes IDLE now. no switch.) we have a real switch here, and it must work.
its the first thing to calibrate on any G16, or many things fail, freeze jumper, idle, EGR, and cut fuel mode. of ecu.
first.

those are correct wire
i think now , your DMM does not like that 200 hz square wave, MANY DONT.
there are only trying more meters, even an analog needle meter might work.


a DMM is a bipolar meter, the DC meter can be connected up backwards and works prefect in fact the LCD will show - or + to tell you what it is.
for example the car battery will read, -12.6 vdc with leads backwards, it all ok.
that.
but not the needle meter, the needle goes backwards and hits the peg, telling the OPr, that leads backwards, the progress of electronics...
some meters do not like 200hz on the DC scales.
nor will any work on AC as that cheap meter only does RMS volts, which we dont want.

nah really, many posters newer seen and EFI car run rigth. lots not..
make frames of reference hard. huh?
like never riding a horse not sick then one day, OMG im going 40mph..... on this old nag. (she must be feeling her OATS)

TPS:
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/TPS...html#MYWAY

TPS cal is first and for sure if the switch don't close every single time you drop the hammer(throttle)
it must every time, or it OUT OF CAL.

the tps switch goes to 0v at idle.
blue-white wire as seen here.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg


this needs to work 100% of the time, or bad things happen. its very key sensor.

[zukitrek]

yes ,right wires... (did you tell me before you are color blind?, sorry if you are, very sorry)
No im not, but saw the wires real quick, sent you the post, I was waiting for you response, I was in a hurry, then I reviewed schem and did test. Was not going to send you another post saying "I found the wire". Water under the bridge. But no color blindness here.
the idle switch tells the ECU, I'm at idle now, and the ISC goes online for idle. servo.
the TPS idle switch. (all cars do this, the j18/20 sees 0.5v on throttle angle and goes IDLE now. no switch.) we have a real switch here, and it must work.
its the first thing to calibrate on any G16, or many things fail, freeze jumper, idle, EGR, and cut fuel mode. of ecu.
first.

those are correct wire
i think now , your DMM does not like that 200 hz square wave, MANY DONT.
there are only trying more meters, even an analog needle meter might work.


a DMM is a bipolar meter, the DC meter can be connected up backwards and works prefect in fact the LCD will show - or + to tell you what it is.
for example the car battery will read, -12.6 vdc with leads backwards, it all ok.
that.So it would not matter pos or neg to any of the ISC wires? But probes should be at the wires right, not neg to ground, say if pos is on any of the 2 wires? Im not asking this now, I let you know how I did test n my last post, that neg probe was a engine metal.
but not the needle meter, the needle goes backwards and hits the peg, telling the OPr, that leads backwards, the progress of electronics...
some meters do not like 200hz on the DC scales.
nor will any work on AC as that cheap meter only does RMS volts, which we dont want.

nah really, many posters newer seen and EFI car run rigth. lots not..
make frames of reference hard. huh?Well this is my 2nd EFI car(had a 94 sunbird) and to my limited knowledge I can say they both run right, until problems arise due to old age and no maintenance.
like never riding a horse not sick then one day, OMG im going 40mph..... on this old nag. (she must be feeling her OATS)

TPS:
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/TPS...html#MYWAY

TPS cal is first and for sure if the switch don't close every single time you drop the hammer(throttle)
it must every time, or it OUT OF CAL.

the tps switch goes to 0v at idle.
blue-white wire as seen here.
So you think I should check this just to rule this out. Remember as under my ownership none of these things you mention have been tampered with or molested: TPS switch, bleed screw, TV stop screw etc. But maybe old age is affecting now.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg


this needs to work 100% of the time, or bad things happen. its very key sensor.

OoooK señor Fix.

[fixkick]

the meter again is bipolar, the DMM can read -5v or +5v.
unlike any analog meter, unipolar.
yes that is what measure across these 2 pins means,
connect the meter leads to the 2 pins, (any order)
red to one , black test lead to the other, it hard to do, backprobing, as are all cars made, this is an acquired skill. with patience.
ok you die it wrong.
do not use the battery lugs, no not use the engine metal.

we want to see what the ECU is doing to the ISC only (rubber meet the road testing , the real deal)
its just 2 wires connect up and read it. backprobled,
your DMM could care LESS the polarity, (digital it is , with bipolar amps inside) un like any needle meter,

to this , learn to use your meter
dial up, 20 VDC range.
now connect the 2 test leads to a 9 volt (smoke det. battery) in 60s called a "transistor radio battery"
see that LDC< see that + sign or - minus sign
now reverse the leads, see the sign change, and still read 9v. bingo, meter is BIPOLAR..
if you worked on computers you'd see minus power supplies, like -12v , and -5vdc, very common,


when folks say car runs great, it means zero to me.
seen 1000s say that, in limphome and backup modes.
what it means is car moves. ok, kinda.....
and a trail of black smoke behind it.

i told you can take any 90s car that runs and find 5 or more thing wrong, very wrong. (never seen an exception)
the car is designed to run with bad things... unlike any carb car made, EFI runs, under horrid conditions.
my lawn more runs, and has no spark advance. zero !
see?
so will back up mode and will run just like lawn mower, black smoke everywhere.

---

I'm from Missouri.
show me!

i never assume, why do that?
your car will not idle right,
i can list 20 things wrong that can cause that..

assuming is wrong to any tech,
we assume there is one thing, a car there, NOTHING ELSE.

The mech, drives car, scans it , check to see if all sensor read rigth.
see that close loop works at hot idle and light cruise.
and that the EGR works and the idle switch and the idle controls all wokr.
all this in a test drive , that i cant do.
i can find like 5 things wrong in 5min, sometimes, seconds.
by sight , sound , and felt. (smelt, raw HC black smoke, fuel leaks smells, burning oil... , and overheated CAT i can smell fast but not here.)

your car id have heared the idle wrong (hot) in 1 second., and that it not regulating in 1`min.

---

if you had a real tachometer
we'd have seen idle too low, way back when
see?
see how tools make the man (makes a tech savvy)
just by knowing what 800 means.... and holding.

i can hear misfire
i can see and engine shake at idle.
i can hear the isc hunt
i can see the ISC not working at all in what 5 min work. or less, (fixing it way longer)
i can see 12s flashing driving for 1hour,
i can test the idle switch to see if it works 10 times in a row.. no less. blip, blip, blip, yup seems to work.
then make sure the isc pinch test works.
then check spark timing, if way off, setting the Duty cycle is a total waste of effort.
in about 1hr work i can check all things on the engine, using tools. with a scan tool faster.


the car is old , somethings are bad. some weak. some flakey,
what's new here? nothing, all old cars are like that. all are.
never seen one example opposite.

[zukitrek]

the meter again is bipolar, the DMM can read -5v or +5v.
unlike any analog meter, unipolar.
yes that is what measure across these 2 pins means,
connect the meter leads to the 2 pins, (any order)
red to one , black test lead to the other, it hard to do, backprobing,
Not at all that was solved in a second. Will send you pics later.
as are all cars made, this is an acquired skill. with patience.
ok you die it wrong.
do not use the battery lugs, no not use the engine metal.
Got it. Will try again the right way tonight.

we want to see what the ECU is doing to the ISC only (rubber meet the road testing , the real deal)
its just 2 wires connect up and read it. backprobled,
your DMM could care LESS the polarity, (digital it is , with bipolar amps inside) un like any needle meter,
Got it. Thanks for that little piece of info.

to this , learn to use your meter
dial up, 20 VDC range.
now connect the 2 test leads to a 9 volt (smoke det. battery) in 60s called a "transistor radio battery"
see that LDC< see that + sign or - minus sign
Ok, yes Ive seen this happen.
now reverse the leads, see the sign change, and still read 9v. bingo, meter is BIPOLAR..
if you worked on computers you'd see minus power supplies, like -12v , and -5vdc, very common,
Hahaha i worked using computers but not on them. OK.


when folks say car runs great, it means zero to me.
seen 1000s say that, in limphome and backup modes.
Would there be lamp flashing in cluster, if Yes? Not mine. No lamp and have to use jumper clip? well 12;s all the way the times I have done it
what it means is car moves. ok, kinda.....
and a trail of black smoke behind it.
Not mine, either.

i told you can take any 90s car that runs and find 5 or more thing wrong, very wrong. (never seen an exception)
the car is designed to run with bad things... unlike any carb car made, EFI runs, under horrid conditions.
my lawn more runs, and has no spark advance. zero !
see?
so will back up mode and will run just like lawn mower, black smoke everywhere.

---

I'm from Missouri. show me!
Was not it TX?


i never assume, why do that?
your car will not idle right,
Thats what we are trying to fix.
i can list 20 things wrong that can cause that..

assuming is wrong to any tech,
we assume there is one thing, a car there, NOTHING ELSE.
Agreed

The mech, drives car, scans it , check to see if all sensor read rigth.
see that close loop works at hot idle and light cruise.
and that the EGR works
First thing fixed on it a long time ago, remember?
and the idle switch and the idle controls all wokr.
all this in a test drive , that i cant do.
i can find like 5 things wrong in 5min, sometimes, seconds.
Thats why Im asking you. I know not being here makes it difficult but I got to try.
by sight , sound , and felt. (smelt, raw HC black smoke, fuel leaks smells, burning oil... , and overheated CAT i can smell fast but not here.)

your car id have heared the idle wrong (hot) in 1 second., and that it not regulating in 1`min.

---

if you had a real tachometer
we'd have seen idle too low, way back when
see?
see how tools make the man (makes a tech savvy)
just by knowing what 800 means.... and holding.

i can hear misfire
i can see and engine shake at idle.
i can hear the isc hunt
i can see the ISC not working at all in what 5 min work. or less, (fixing it way longer)
i can see 12s flashing driving for 1hour,
i can test the idle switch to see if it works 10 times in a row.. no less. blip, blip, blip, yup seems to work.
then make sure the isc pinch test works.
then check spark timing, if way off, setting the Duty cycle is a total waste of effort.
in about 1hr work i can check all things on the engine, using tools. with a scan tool faster.
I can tell some but when in doubt you ask the person that knows the most, in this case you sir.


the car is old , somethings are bad. some weak. some flakey,
what's new here? nothing,
Well overhauling ignition system components, EGR and timing component don't count? Now overhauled tranny? Already driven 200 miles going up, down and no probs on that. You have to know all these have been replace with real parts, and no china knockoff crap. These are new. But not the sensors and thats where we focusing now.
all old cars are like that. all are.
never seen one example opposite.

I want to fix my problem, with a limited technical knowledge, that you have but I don't. Is like me pretending you to digitally retouch a picture the right way with the right tools in 5 minutes. It won't happen, cause thats not what you are good at. But Ill do my best. Im very patient and above all, I like doing things the right way.

Thank you sir.

[fixkick]

i know nothing, im blind here. (worse than a bat) (id need to be there, to see)
it check the idle switch (0v , each time you got to idle.)
then see if the DMM can read near center, 7vdc. it will if lucky.... (a across the ISC pins, now here else,2 pins, 2 meter leads, across them) probed.
not 0vdc
not 14vdc
if not near 7v, turn the bleed screw until the voltage moves to 7vdc (pay no mind to + and - symbols on LCD screen)
if it moves this voltage good, that means its alive. and working. and meter not fibbing to you.

some meters will not work here,
crossing fingers your meter works, and no other problems or bad idle switch. etc.