2002 Tracker / Vitara No Start Issue - Engine Swapped but Ran

[fixkick]

Tried using gas in the intake an no go.
Then I tried brake cleaner (non-chlorinated) and still no start. It wanted to but it didnt. I think plugs were wet at that point. 
this is wrong to use, some is fire proof,  now.  just like WD40 remove propane gas not it dont burn.

use real starting fluid or real gas. please.

-I did try with gas last night and it was a no go. I do think the engine was flooded again because the plugs came out a little wet. WOT may have cleared the cyclinders, but plugs were still a little wet. 

I tried with propane quickly this morning and it made a few combustions, but did not actually start and stall out.  (spark is bad or engine bad or can not breath air or pump  air) mr green today.

Ill try cranking with my scan tool on again for 10 secs and see if it gets any codes. crank , and release key ,do not turn off for full minute , even push pending button on scan tool.
the book says 11 turns of crankshaft, no human can count to 11 at 300RPM, so 10 seconds, sure. do not want to miss P03xx codes of any kind.

I did this multiple times and its not throwing any codes.

Should I disconnect fuel pump fuse when i do this or leave it in? Dont want to flood the engine.
pull the fuel pump relay kills all pump actions and now zero fuel flows, no chance of folding and then use real; not fake test fuel. my gosh. do not use brake cleaner.
make the goal test fuel works as it should even hold throttle open a tad, for more air incase  ISC/IAC air flow devices are dead, the engine needs air to start too.
on my 2004 it had only 1 ISC valve did all idle air, and if dead none.

I tried to pull the fuse and crank it, but the engine light turns off without the fuel pump fuse in. (that is because it kills too many things the FP relay only kills the pump fuel._
I had to pull the fuse and disconnect the injector harness.  do the relay, if the CEL goes dead the ECU is dead and so be spark too>)
have you seen the left ankle fuse box and the fuel pump relay or under hood, it is on one or the other).  

I believe its running to rich. You can smell fuel vapours in the air when it tries to start. (you need to end the flooding, so we can find the true cause. of no starts)
the fuel pump must be killled dead now so you can run test fuel only ,  engine + spark,  then test fuel engine runs,  fuel pump must be dead to test.)

then pull the fuel pump relay ending all fuell flow, and all flooding then crank wot.  the magic free unflood mode per users manual.
then when dry do test fuel use only real fuel (in spray can from autostore is best,) putting gasoline in old windex bottle melts its plastic and boom all bad there.

- I will go pick some up today after work. (propane is weak yes works but weak and makes the job more hard)


Have to go back to work. will reply with more info. Will be testing tonight.

My friend is coming over with his timing light and he is going to show me how to use it. He is a master tech for 20+ years, I just dont know how to set it without the DLC connector. I may have to buy a tech 1


you do not need any tech one ever. it is only a waste of time and huge cash outlay use a real OBD2 full scan tool with pending button.
the only time needed this is for ABS or for some years (2004) with no timing freeze DLC 2, under hood,.

I have a pretty good scanner MaxiDiag Elite MD802 ( I made it link to the webpage) It can do complete scans of all modules, EPB, Oil reset, ect. Only thing it cant do is program modules and special functions in some modules. I took a look into the live data in the ECM and found spark timing was set to 5 degrees no mater what when I was cranking. 
OK THE ECU DOES MATH TO SHOW SPARK ADVANCES (IT DOES NOT KNOW STATIC TIMING AT ALL (AND WRONG NOW) BUT DOES THIS MATH
WHERE YOU SET STATIC + ADVANCE TABLE START = ACTUAL ADVANCE.
IF YOU SET STATIC WRONG IT WILL LIE. (STATIC IS CAM SENSOR SEE SCREW SEE ARC SLOT , THAT)
5BTDC IS NORMAL CRANKING DOES NOT USE DYNAMIC ADVANCE TABLES UNTIL RUNNING SO IS STATIC ONLY.  (WHERE YOU PUT IT IS WHERE IT IS, ECU DOES NO CHANGE IT)CRANKED/
THE TIMING LIGHT IS SUPER EASY TO USE, you will have fun.
learn to do all 4 cyclinders and prove fiiring order is right, 1,3,4,3  and not misfiring or other wild acts,  TDC firing near 0 TDC  or -5TDC per sticker on hood (up and under see?)


My compressor tester is currently missing. I lent it to someone and can't remember who I  lent it to. im going to pick up another one after work today with the starting fluid. I'm really hoping its no that... It did start and run for 20-30 mins when I first cranked it, it just sounded like fuel or timing was way off. 
I'd not guess, why not just assume it is something simple and silly wrong, can be sure can be like  stuck closed FPR reg. can. (or its return line bent, or clogged or crushed.
60PSI fuel pressure is bad, and floods like mad..  60PSI is shunt spec  on the pump, and is a dead head, or fuel pinched test. per FSM manual called that.

That is why I  asked you to pull the fuel pump relay,  to end fuel from the tank. (hell the fuel can be bad)
run on test fuel I can keep an engine running with  a bone dry fuel tank with starting fluid. (mad man on the trigger, there are youtubes of this)




Im thinking I may need to go find another engine at the wreckers... which I hope isnt the case. Its a pain in the ass trying to pull this engine there.


OHH I also split the exhaust manifold from the downpipe. Cat is basically brand new (2 yrs old) and nothing blocking it. Still honeycombs and cant see any blockage. I left it apart while I tried to crank it, but it didnt make much of a difference. 
GOOD ONE LESS CAUSE THANKS !!!

if compression is good.  great
but if horrible no EFI on earth can run a dead engine, nor an carb.  199psi good 50 bad, my lawn mower does 100, my VWbug same, and my old outboard motor 100.
180 cold is my guess times 4 and let the needle peak, WOT ,just block open throttle , fuel pump relay never plugged tell spark test far below.
in school they teach do basics first that means make sure first the engine is good, viable. It must pump air.  
if cat melted or ISC valve stuck closed it will never pump air, ever.
then run on test fuel with fuel  pump relay still pulled.  (crank wot to dry it out)
if must run on test fuel  NOW, or spark is wrong.  all the power of spark in the world is useless timed wrong, or 1 or both CMP/CKP going wild.

I believe the issue is spark related. Double check the plugs, their gaped to 1.1mil as they should be.


make sure the CmP cam sensor is not the wrong one. ending in 65D00,   (left rear of cam) - Checked

the engine must not be flooded, per above and how to remove flooding
and then must run on test fuel if it does not , engine is bad or spark is bad.  All engines run on test fuel even sparkless diesels.

- On propane it combusted a couple times but did not turn over and stall. I can order new plugs and try them, but the plugs I have look pretty good still. 

-Swapped coil packs with ones that were known good and still no difference. 

once here in this ordered flow of tests, then we test spark deep checked to prove it is not bad and is timed correctly and to make sure all 4 plugs spark in correct tidied order,
1,3,4,2 (firing order must) do not mix up COP wired input cables.  you have 4 COPs, USA.
-Next to impossible to mix the COP order. Wires are too short to mix up.
what if this donor engine had wrong parts installed,  expect anything from any wrecker.
to do that do the tests, skip none and do them in the correct order.
-I only used the block and a few other misc pieces from the wrecker engine (Crank sensor thats on the flywheel, waterpump, and Coolant sensor- i broke my old one trying to get it off my old block). Everything else including the intake manifold, and accessories are from the old truck.

if does not crank grab the A/t shift lever, step on brake pedal and shift  to N and crank if it cranks the PNDRL switch is bad , in the P position;
real starting fluid burns,
watch scotty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064Ilsz8Fzg

- I love scotty, watch him all the time. Im from toronto where he grew up. I tried starting in Park and Neutral and both yielded the same results. no start.

ignore fuel pressure test, but sure it must be in spec.
if say the fuel FPR regulator fuel return line clogs fuel pressure goes to 2 times normal and the engine flood for ever.

-I opened the fuel return line and had someone crank the engine. Fuel was being sent back to tank. Now how m,uch fuel should be going back im not sure. But I would think that its the right amount. 

that is the 2nd reason to use test fuel on a dry engine, fuel pump relay pulled.  and repeat like 3 to 5 times, hear engine sound normal and  stall each time as Scotty just did.
if it sounds great then forget spark,
and see of fuel pressure is wrong, wrong is 60PSI, dead WRONG.

My buddy was too tired to come over last night with his timing light. He said hell come over tonight after hes done. 

If you can think of any other tests let me know. Im open to anything at this point. Ive had 2 certified mechanics come by that have both 20+ years of experience. 

lets do flooding reasons and all tests.

1: dead/bad engines flood fast, compression test must pass, 199 is normal, sea level , wot  or throttle blocked open some. 1/2 is ok.
2 all ecu made cut fuel dead if it SEES spark lost, yours, does not see this lost in this case. so injects,
3: no idle air.  engine floods cranked,   (0 air + fuel = floods ) sees my math?, cased by ISC dead stuck closed, (use 5% throttle right foot)
4: bad fuel. (smells funny)
5: FPR bad , inside is stuck closed fuel pressure, at 60PSI or return line blocked from FPR to tank port called returned fuel. (pressure gauge test easy)
6: injectors  leak, (remove the fuel pump relay) use test fuel, dry plugs. keep them dry.
7: spark dead, or wild timing, wild or random misfire, or spark not pure and clean and 1,3,4,2  timed.  do not use  the wrong cam sensor, do not.
8: spark boots bad, most are this  old the end of COPS bottom end are BOOTS, they get old turn to carbon and shortout. at HV. hopeless this... until fixed.
9: test fuel test fails, fuel pump relay not inserted.
10: cat not melted (now we  check this off the list) cool!
11 : the MAF sensor can be bad, fibbing and reporting huge air flows, and not real. sending out 4volts will do that cranking is like 1volt.DC. but adding air via right foot would make the engine scream real fast this failure. (I think not)

 zero gas starts , only spray can of fuel  , see this,  NO FUEL in the tank at all,  we can do that to any car, any gas engine,

https://youtu.be/HhXwVhYfPm8?t=140

keep face away from TB air horn.  where googles this close, but  with long arms , no problems.
do not  pour real gas into air horn like pouring coffee to a cup do not.
use only spray, try a little and work up, to more. and see engine run and sound great, or not, if engine sounds huge metalick noise it is bad. as you know J20 is interference engine,

i will try to find your FP relay location next.

[fixkick]

Left side of the instrument panel attached to the junction block on the left side
fuel pump relay is here, 2.0L (j20)
engine  (3 engines that year)

M= main, (ecu) and FP = fuel pump relay.

[fixkick]

never in my life have I not done 3 things first on a dead engine.
test fuel (finds dead injectors fast, omg it runs great just like SCOTTY video shows.)
then check spark fails, above. ok it seems ok.
do compression test next.


evidences is always best, for sure tests.

even consider the flooding no start conditions, may be real, it is over fueling way too much.
now do WOT cranking on any engine and this cuts fuel the ECU sees you WOT and cuts all fuel and with a massive air supply now engine starts and runs .

removing the FP relay gets you the control you need to make top evidence base decisions.
run on test fuel over and over, till happy see engine is ok. anyone can do that? zero tank fuel starts, pump off line.
if that fails we check spark super carefully or do the compression test as IMO all wrecker engines need that first thing. the engine is used, not rebuilt. expect that and do this 1 test. first.

[Matty_Robz]

I believe the problem if fixed. I had an interesting and very very long night last night. Had my Master tech friend come over with a leakdown test and some sort of whistle tester kit as well as a special tool to find TDC so we could test the intake & exhaust valves to see if any were bent.

I ended up caving yesterday and bought a whole timing set I found on my local Buy and Sell group for cheap. I got this kit
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/...weOhgAb8x/$_59.JPG

I will post the results in a bit. I also have some videos.

I cant explain what happened but I think its going to start today.

Ill report back in a few hours.

[fixkick]

surely a very interesting car, and problem
compression must be good.
leak down too is good but leak down does NOT prove engine can pump air, it might but this test is also good.
spark must fire 1,3,4,2 near TDC and no where else, and CMP cam sensors can do CRAZY things, or be the wrong sensor, (must be for correct generation year car)
if engine runs on test fuel with spark good and fuel pump relay pulled.
the make sure fuel pressure is not 60psi, 2 time normal.
I can start an engine like this with no fuel pump and no throttle body at all.

just my can of "instant start:" in hand. cranking and a blasting.. did this too as small boy and RC planes, up to 0.60 size, (nitro)

if bent valves that bad cylinder will have leak down to infinity, (huge vast leak)
and compression at zero PSI (0) https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html
The tool compression is only $20 at Harbor Freight ™ stores. they rent them in autostores here.

in cars like this I assume it is all bad, the prove it (each function) is not 1 test at a time. compression tops that list. If fails , all else is , like tears in the rain.
the thing that kills progress is assuming.

[fixkick]

do the compression test with my stated fuel pump relay removed.
so it can not start. with no fuel and ends fire danger now.

do not let the COPS shock you , plugs out. cranked,
the test is with throttle TV blocked up a tad or full WOT to get max air to the engine. or turn key with foot in to the throttle pedal.
then let the Compression needle peak. out. (battery charged, no weak slow cranking now)
180 to 199PSI is par, 199 is new car hot engine or warm. at sea level if at on mountain now tell how high.
my g16b does 185 warm. yours has higher compression ratio so can do 199psi warm. and do.