Timing Issue

[Xoloski]

I am working on a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX 4-door with a 1.6 - 16 valve engine and manual transmission. When I got this it did not run. I repaired the wallowed out crankshaft key slot with loctite products. Setting up the timing, I;
1) Aligned camshaft gear timing mark “E” at 12:00 position with cylinder 4 at TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam.  
2) Adjusted the valves.
3) Set #1 cylinder to TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam and the crankshaft timing mark at 8 degrees BTDC.
3) Place the distributer into the housing so the rotor is aligned with the number 1 location of the distributor cap, the rotor points to the right side of the distributor adjustment slot.

The engine runs but the crankshaft timing mark, with the advance lock jumper shunt in place, when viewed with a timing light is approximately two inches advanced. The timing does not change with the shunt removed.
I tried to move the distributor one tooth in either direction with no success.

Once the engine heats up, the timing mark moves to 1 inch advanced with the distributor rotated to the extreme. The timing light pick-up placed on cylinder 1. Placing the timing light on other cylinders does not produce a visible timing mark while running. 

I know that, mechanically the timing marks and belt is setup properly. The engine runs.  
I tried the distributor in all three rotor positions, only 1 position works. 
I even replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECU and tested for ground continuity. 

What am I missing?

[Xoloski]

I am working on a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX 4-door with a 1.6 - 16 valve engine and manual transmission. When I got this it did not run. I repaired the wallowed out crankshaft key slot with loctite products. Setting up the timing, I;
1) Aligned camshaft gear timing mark “E” at 12:00 position with cylinder 4 at TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam.  
2) Adjusted the valves.
3) Set #1 cylinder to TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam and the crankshaft timing mark at 8 degrees BTDC.
3) Place the distributer into the housing so the rotor is aligned with the number 1 location of the distributor cap, the rotor points to the right side of the distributor adjustment slot.

The engine runs but the crankshaft timing mark, with the advance lock jumper shunt in place, when viewed with a timing light is approximately two inches advanced. The timing does not change with the shunt removed.
I tried to move the distributor one tooth in either direction with no success.

Once the engine heats up, the timing mark moves to 1 inch advanced with the distributor rotated to the extreme. The timing light pick-up placed on cylinder 1. Placing the timing light on other cylinders does not produce a visible timing mark while running. 

I know that, mechanically the timing marks and belt is setup properly. The engine runs.  
I tried the distributor in all three rotor positions, only 1 position works. 
I even replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECU and tested for ground continuity. 

What am I missing?

Does the crankshaft position sensor for this '93 - 16 Valve engine correlate to a pick-up located on the flywheel? If so, then perhaps the flywheel is misaligned. I looked and can not find where the crankshaft position sensor is supposed to be in a '93. The factory manual on page 6A1-51 states, with regard to flywheel installation "Flywheel to Crankshaft, Align the flywheel to engine marks."

[fixkick]

I am working on a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX 4-door with a 1.6 - 16 valve engine and manual transmission. When I got this it did not run. I repaired the wallowed out crankshaft key slot with loctite products. Setting up the timing, I;
1) Aligned camshaft gear timing mark “E” at 12:00 position with cylinder 4 at TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam.  
2) Adjusted the valves.
3) Set #1 cylinder to TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam and the crankshaft timing mark at 8 degrees BTDC.
3) Place the distributer into the housing so the rotor is aligned with the number 1 location of the distributor cap, the rotor points to the right side of the distributor adjustment slot.

The engine runs but the crankshaft timing mark, with the advance lock jumper shunt in place, when viewed with a timing light is approximately two inches advanced. The timing does not change with the shunt removed.
see freeze fail here.  https://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML
CEL lamp glows key on, must and goes out running, mUST?
the Shunt only works right if the engine is hot (180f is normal)
and at 800 RPM hot regulated idle
and the TPS idle switch is closed and reads 0vdc. zero volts.
is it?
is the rotor from china and will installed 3ways, or just 1 as it must with real rotors with real, bottom spring clips there FORCING ONE FIT AND ONLY one fit.
The ECU only knows what the CMP in side the Distributor tells it, nothing else. timing wise.
the distributor gear has 13 teeth is planted (engaged ) wrong the distributor base slot will hit. and you can not set sparking ever set wrong (planted) like that.



I tried to move the distributor one tooth in either direction with no success.

Once the engine heats up, the timing mark moves to 1 inch advanced with the distributor rotated to the extreme. The timing light pick-up placed on cylinder 1. Placing the timing light on other cylinders does not produce a visible timing mark while running. 

I know that, mechanically the timing marks and belt is setup properly. The engine runs.  
I tried the distributor in all three rotor positions, only 1 position works.   ( and means the Rotor is C4 grade, China commy cheap crap, C4 we call it.  why buy this crap making an easy job 3 times more hard.? Even might BOSCH had ads for years, saying see your ROTOR FITS, and only OWN WAY,  for years.  sad no? C4 crap.
I even replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECU and tested for ground continuity. 

What am I missing?

first off there is no crank sensor on any G16 engine until 1996 (USA) OBD2 laws when into effect. zero CKP sensors.

what is missing is reading my  timing page. see my ROTOR  and words there.?


see this

[fixkick]

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php...TBag%3D%3D


STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS JR144

the timing freeze can be a pain
first make sure 800rpm hot.
make sure turning on AC causes 1000 RPM? does it? that tells you the fast idle controls work. (and ISC works and idle switch not stuck open)

[fixkick]

the 96 rotor does not fit the  older engine, the JR144 is yours.

not to scare you but China now sells cams with no rear cam gear. (suzuki never did this)

so the shop must get gear pressed back on right or all hell to  pay timing the distributor. 1/2 tooth off OH BOY.

[Xoloski]

the 96 rotor does not fit the  older engine, the JR144 is yours.

not to scare you but China now sells cams with no rear cam gear. (suzuki never did this)

so the shop must get gear pressed back on right or all hell to  pay timing the distributor. 1/2 tooth off OH BOY.

Thank you for your help!

I'll check these things out at first opportunity.
The cheap rotor was on the vehicle when I got it.
I'll see if I can find a real one.

[fixkick]

the 96 rotor does not fit the  older engine, the JR144 is yours.

not to scare you but China now sells cams with no rear cam gear. (suzuki never did this)

so the shop must get gear pressed back on right or all hell to  pay timing the distributor. 1/2 tooth off OH BOY.

Thank you for your help!

I'll check these things out at first opportunity.
The cheap rotor was on the vehicle when I got it.
I'll see if I can find a real one.

sorry if they did that to you,  the C4 magic 3 way rotor very sorry.  it can work if set right,.  brass tip opposite to long flat side.
the CMP inside is timed to the short flat. spark fires there. 

the way to do this is to use white paint mark, and mark the base of rim top for rotor 1 firing point. rotor set right.

if these aligned, and rotor not wrong spark can happen here, at #1 firing. the hidden CMP  tone wheel inside will be right only if Rotor FLATS are correct.
the distrib fires every 90degree's the tip is tri-sected, if set wrong, flat, that is off 1/3 of 90deg. or 30degree spark error.  huge error and cause the brass tip to fire that far off.  ouch.








there is a way to prove all this with 1 LED + 510ohm resistor and 12vdc battery to the CMP HALL 3 pins, (ground, 12vdc and output) Led on output. (ask for wiring setups)
seen here on my 8v but works both distributors.  ( best is to use the white marks for true #1 cap firing then see if CMP agrees if not rotor no good or fits 3 ways , 2ways wrong.
video:

https://fixkick.com/videos/FLV-all/showtime.html#CMP

[fixkick]

just made this off cardone photo, as you can see  there is short flat and long flat, the long flat is important.
I may have this backwards below.  ?  id have to see the STAR CMP. to know.  But the photos below shows how to  learn where the tip goes, and in relationship to the STAR is what matters, most.



Real photos with the dust cap off , make doing this 10 x more easy, time it with dust cap off.  seeing the HALL CMP STAR makes this way more clear.
92-95 only 16v below.  CCW turns,  fires, 1,3,4,2.

I think the long flat is bottom of  photo.  my guess is the star leading edge triggers spark (and ECu does advance for sure)


a better photo direct on, and with rotor tip show , we do not have one photo like that  early 16V,just like above is all I have.

OK I found 1 more photo. (dark web)  find the long fat, and that is BINGO. fire.




let me know please how these help or how to make this accurate   a real rotor makes this easy, it shows what must align
SMP maker shows a diagram and shows tip fires off end of long flat. as to 3 other top makers of rotors.
I think the below is accurate.  SMP rules and by looking at rotors for sale bottom side, shows this to be true.



Bosch  #  Pn: pre96: 04273
SMP is good too.
and BECK
or NGK if found.

[Xoloski]

I am working on a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX 4-door with a 1.6 - 16 valve engine and manual transmission. When I got this it did not run. I repaired the wallowed out crankshaft key slot with loctite products. Setting up the timing, I;
1) Aligned camshaft gear timing mark “E” at 12:00 position with cylinder 4 at TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam.  
2) Adjusted the valves.
3) Set #1 cylinder to TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam and the crankshaft timing mark at 8 degrees BTDC.
3) Place the distributer into the housing so the rotor is aligned with the number 1 location of the distributor cap, the rotor points to the right side of the distributor adjustment slot.

The engine runs but the crankshaft timing mark, with the advance lock jumper shunt in place, when viewed with a timing light is approximately two inches advanced. The timing does not change with the shunt removed.
see freeze fail here.  https://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML
CEL lamp glows key on, must and goes out running, mUST?
the Shunt only works right if the engine is hot (180f is normal)
and at 800 RPM hot regulated idle
and the TPS idle switch is closed and reads 0vdc. zero volts.
is it?
is the rotor from china and will installed 3ways, or just 1 as it must with real rotors with real, bottom spring clips there FORCING ONE FIT AND ONLY one fit.
The ECU only knows what the CMP in side the Distributor tells it, nothing else. timing wise.
the distributor gear has 13 teeth is planted (engaged ) wrong the distributor base slot will hit. and you can not set sparking ever set wrong (planted) like that.



I tried to move the distributor one tooth in either direction with no success.

Once the engine heats up, the timing mark moves to 1 inch advanced with the distributor rotated to the extreme. The timing light pick-up placed on cylinder 1. Placing the timing light on other cylinders does not produce a visible timing mark while running. 

I know that, mechanically the timing marks and belt is setup properly. The engine runs.  
I tried the distributor in all three rotor positions, only 1 position works.   ( and means the Rotor is C4 grade, China commy cheap crap, C4 we call it.  why buy this crap making an easy job 3 times more hard.? Even might BOSCH had ads for years, saying see your ROTOR FITS, and only OWN WAY,  for years.  sad no? C4 crap.
I even replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECU and tested for ground continuity. 

What am I missing?

first off there is no crank sensor on any G16 engine until 1996 (USA) OBD2 laws when into effect. zero CKP sensors.

what is missing is reading my  timing page. see my ROTOR  and words there.?


see this

I checked my distributor shaft to rotor angle and it was as in the picture shown above. I reset the rotor tip the the side opposite the shortest side of the distributor shaft. The engine would not start and sounded like it was 180 out. I swapped wires 180 and the engine would not start. I returned the wires to the original place. I bought a new rotor, looks better than the existing rotor but, still goes on three ways. (made in USA)
When the engine did run poorly, I had tried the rotor at all three sides and it would only run on the one side I had it running on, which was not as shown in your photo. And when it ran poorly and the timing mark was at the 10:00 position and fluctuating.

\Is it possible that the timing mark was at 10:00 because the engine was not at 180+ degrees temp and therefore the timing freeze not active? 

Today, in a frustrated mode, I removed the timing cover and verified that I set the cam/crankshaft up right in the first place. #4 cylinder at TDC compression stroke (valves loose) with the "E" cam sprocket mark aligned at the 12:00 position. 
The "E" of the cam sprocket position is at 6:00 with #1 is at TDC.

[Xoloski]

I am working on a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX 4-door with a 1.6 - 16 valve engine and manual transmission. When I got this it did not run. I repaired the wallowed out crankshaft key slot with loctite products. Setting up the timing, I;
1) Aligned camshaft gear timing mark “E” at 12:00 position with cylinder 4 at TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam.  
2) Adjusted the valves.
3) Set #1 cylinder to TDC as determined by cam lobes being at the heel of the cam and the crankshaft timing mark at 8 degrees BTDC.
3) Place the distributer into the housing so the rotor is aligned with the number 1 location of the distributor cap, the rotor points to the right side of the distributor adjustment slot.

The engine runs but the crankshaft timing mark, with the advance lock jumper shunt in place, when viewed with a timing light is approximately two inches advanced. The timing does not change with the shunt removed.
see freeze fail here.  https://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML
CEL lamp glows key on, must and goes out running, mUST?
the Shunt only works right if the engine is hot (180f is normal)
and at 800 RPM hot regulated idle
and the TPS idle switch is closed and reads 0vdc. zero volts.
is it?
is the rotor from china and will installed 3ways, or just 1 as it must with real rotors with real, bottom spring clips there FORCING ONE FIT AND ONLY one fit.
The ECU only knows what the CMP in side the Distributor tells it, nothing else. timing wise.
the distributor gear has 13 teeth is planted (engaged ) wrong the distributor base slot will hit. and you can not set sparking ever set wrong (planted) like that.



I tried to move the distributor one tooth in either direction with no success.

Once the engine heats up, the timing mark moves to 1 inch advanced with the distributor rotated to the extreme. The timing light pick-up placed on cylinder 1. Placing the timing light on other cylinders does not produce a visible timing mark while running. 

I know that, mechanically the timing marks and belt is setup properly. The engine runs.  
I tried the distributor in all three rotor positions, only 1 position works.   ( and means the Rotor is C4 grade, China commy cheap crap, C4 we call it.  why buy this crap making an easy job 3 times more hard.? Even might BOSCH had ads for years, saying see your ROTOR FITS, and only OWN WAY,  for years.  sad no? C4 crap.
I even replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECU and tested for ground continuity. 

What am I missing?

first off there is no crank sensor on any G16 engine until 1996 (USA) OBD2 laws when into effect. zero CKP sensors.

what is missing is reading my  timing page. see my ROTOR  and words there.?


see this

I checked my rotor position against the above photo and found it to be out of phase with the photo. I matched the rotor tip with the side opposite the shortest leg of the distributor shaft and reset the distributor to #1. The engine would not start, nor fire.
 
Today I removed the valve and timing covers and verified that my work was correct, see images.

Is it possible that, because the engine was not a 180+ degrees temperature, or the TPS was not at acceptable levels, that the timing freeze function did not operate and the timing mark being at the 10:00 position of the dampner, and erratic / unstable fluctuation of the mark, is what I should expect without the freeze actuated?