Temperature Sensor Issue or Throttle body ???

[3Waggintails]

Recently posted about intermittent Hesitation/surge issue. I was having PO400 code after changing egr, modulator, and switch and a ton of other work like 02 sensors, new muffler, etc.  See other post Hestitaion /Surge

Took car to shop and they now claim EGR, IAT and ECT sensor codes found.  In addition they claim found a small leak at intake manifold.  Could be stopped passages in intake system.

They claim to have disassembled manifold, cleaned egr ports and replaced intake and throttle body gaskets as well as replacing the the two above mentioned temp sensors.

Car still will idle at about 800 when gets to operating temp but drops to about 500.  At one point today it dropped to about 300, jumped to 100 then dropped back to 500.  You can feel and see engine shuddering.  Hasn't died on me at any time.

I drove and drove it.  Appears to me that onece been at operating temp for for 3-5 miles, if you dont maintain a constant pressure (as if speeding up) on pedal there will be a "hesitation". Then press accelerator and goes.  After driving for several more miles, problem seems to stop.  Only persistent issue once at operting temp for numerous miles (10 or 15 ???) is low idle and engine shuddering.

They had cleared code and I drove 4 times today after picking it up.  Code popped again when I started on 4th trip.

I am at a loss. $1025 and still same issue.

[fixkick]

PROXY answer (only did this like 1 in 100000 posts)
hard..
tell them leave the EGR alone.it is not THE PROBLEM. ( EGR is last NEVER FIRST, after replacing it , IT WILL NOT LEAK so forget it for now)
tell them to fix the bad fuel collateral damage. (injectors and FPR)
tell the fuel pressure needs to be checked key and at idle and the 6 PSI RULE!
the car had or still has many problems, discounting EGR.
the Car has hOT only misfire.
my Guess P0300 errors, if you drove it 3 times and got past the 2 TRIP RULE FOR OBD2.
P030x errors. x tells what cylinder fails and 0 mean all 4 but random.

That is about all.

[fixkick]

best is to assume the MDP is fibbing , and will if  vacuum bounces at misfire.
close the EGR # (defeat it) and fix MISFIRE cause, 1st.

[3Waggintails]

Oh my God! You are a cornucopia of information! Remember I am a woman who was my dad's grease monkey and can do some minimal things. I rely on the mechanics to know what the hell they're doing. And hope that they will listen to me when I provide them information. It obviously has not always happened. I need to respond to you as soon as possible but I'm trying to deal with another vehicle issue now as well before I proceed with this one. As soon as I can I will provide you the information that you requested and I did run scan tool I do have a simple scan tool. And I'll give you the information from that and try to lay out the information better in terms of what has been done to the vehicle thus far and when. I think you found my previous thread that was The Surge hesitation it when the 97 sidekick 4 door manual transmission with the bad fuel tank or or gas issue Etc. But I will get you that information as soon as I can. Just remember to try to keep things simple and in a step-by-step format for me to understand so that I can tell these people because they're probably not going to read all the information that you provided. Suddenly my printer is not working so it's not like I can print it off and take it to him and say here read this! I tried forwarding them links but I don't know that they even looked at them to be honest

[fixkick]

Are your posts about 2 cars? IDK> if yes, first time for me in 13 years, here , any examples of that.

there is no step by step
the steps vary wildly by tests passing and failing. (someone made a logic flow chart for this and was HUGE< and vastly complex and the makers head exploded.)_ RIP him.
ask your doctor how that works , diagnosis is never easy.
First we test the actual engine
then spark
and fuel last.

my guess is fueling will fail., but that is only my useless guess. (based on age of car and for sure bad fuel)

[3Waggintails]

Okay.  Here is what I can tell you:

1.  Link to prior post:  https://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/...p?tid=2599

2.  I am not in Canada.  Canada made Sidekick though.  I am in Birmingham, AL.  Not two different cars. I do have cheap code reader and have been using although other than codes I can look up all the other stuff means nothing.

3.  1997 Suzuki SK, 4dr, MT.  Current miles are approx 97, 560 - original.  Stock car.

4.  Based on info from last post let me  add what I can here to hopefully help us both.  You are correct time or $$$. I did not have $$$ to do some things that I should have and also not in a position to be without car a LONG period of time.  Basic maintenance was done like oil changes etc. and the occassional "oops" I need a battery or alternator, etc.

5:  Once I got $$ I started more important maintenance - oil leaks, timing belt replacement, hoses, belts etc:

Last April (19)  had the folllowing done: timing belt and water pump, new cam and crank seals, oil pan gasket, belts, hoses, oil pressure switch, PCV valve, oil pan nut, thermostat and air filter, crankshaft position sensor (I believe). Mileage was 85,955


In Dec 2019 Distributor O rings replaced and 02 sensors as well as muffler.  Was not back pressure tested although I wnated to be sure no cat issues. Steering geerbox replaced along with struts etc


Note EGR code and 02 sensor codes finally "pulled" at this time.  Why I started pn this journey.  Mechanic schecked switch voltage or whatever for egr and vacum and mudulator, etc.  Said all items good.  Cleared code.  Code back after 2 days and I decided to get NEW EGR, modulator and switch and just try to address....maybe dirty etc. I wnated all vacum lines replaced as they are 23 years old.  I am second owner and got with 60K on clock.  Older couples estate sold.  They only drove around small town in south AL, etc.

They vacum lines were NOT replaced as I requested and it was not smoke tested as I requested to check for leaks.

After EGR components replaced is when I noticed the low idle 500 RPM (cant say I paid attention before because I had no performance issues other than my gas milage had dropped gradually from 24-25 city stuff to 19-21) and now how the slight, tiny stutter at idle that wasnt there prior to egr stuff replaced.   Car otherwise ran great. No issues. I attributed to winter gas, long sitting and idling on cold mornings to warm up etc. BUT took car back and insisted on smoke test.  Just before I took in on Feb 11 is when I supposedly got bad gas. See info on that post.

Smoke test done on 2/11/20 (negative) and MAF cleaned.  I requested check fuel filter because I suspected bad gas. They said lots of muddy water it looked like.  I saw small sample.  Tank was dropped and drained.  Suppposedly, wiped out inside thats it.  Replaced the fuel filter, pump and strainer/screen. 

Since I was there and already in deep $$$, I told them to replace plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor button. Now did they gap plugs?  Don't think so did not see done. Out of box into car. 

A couple of days later (2/13) is when I noticed the power loss/hesitation/recovery thing at speeds of 20-25mph at first but with more driving it occurred at varying speeds as I noted in prior post.  I thought surely no bad gas again??!!  When I got home, I used code reader and got P0400 but also got some freeze frame data.  Didnt realize 2 pages of it on scanner so all I got was:

Load Pct:  11.8

ETC:  185 degrees F

MAP (in HG):  6. 8

RPM (/min): 1794

VSS (mph):28

Other infor I got was readiness stuff for passing emmissions.  Dont think helpful here?

Called my regular shop and they were slammed so continued carefully driving car and collecting the info you saw in prior post while searching for alternate reputable shop.

Took to new shop on 2/21 and asked to resmoke, do back pressure test or whatever to check CAT and to address the P0400 issue.  Told about idle speed and hesitation issue, hiccup at idle, etc.  Rest is I said in post as far as what they did. I literally begged, stressed etc. to check fuel fil;ter - not done!!! 

So today, I wanted to get more data after getting the car back after $1025 in labor etc so I could tell you and them that code CHK ENG came back and was PO400.  Popped after 3rd drive cycle - when I started the 4th time yesterday.

After driving this morning, I pulled code (P0400) and the the following DTC Freeze Frame:

Fuel system 1 -OL

Fuel system 2 - n/a

Load - PCT: 20.4

ETC (deg F): 180

Shrt FT 1 %:  0.0
  

Long Ft 1%:  3.9

MAP (in HG):  9.7

RPM (/min) 2690)

VSS (mph):40

So, dont know if this helps you any.  But my conundrum is if fuel tank, fuel injector, etc issue now suspect, car needs to go back to original shop.  But I just spent $1025 at other shop that I do not think totally addressed P0400.  I cannot give away that kind of money!!!

You now say leave EGR issue alone and pursue fuel issues.  I understand about tank, Flushing fuel lines, injectors ( could just replace) and FPR.  

You say more issues....beyond that what?

What are P0300 errors and why doesnt my scan tool show?

What is MDP?

I will have to talk to $1025 shop about what the ____ they gonna do to make right but need to take to regular shop on fuel issue and see.  Either way will take me a week or more to get an answer repair in all liklihood.

Am I hurting car badly by driving? Afraid gonna fail me somewhere.

How would I PM you if needed?

[fixkick]

for get 300 , it means random  misfire, and takes 2 driving cycles to set, so if you still do not know how to use pendings key on the scan tool you can miss P0300 (p030x)
The PENDING button tells you things failing, (DTC) that are hidden for the 2 or 3 driving cycle rules.  oK< PENDINGS MATTER>.
The MDP means (EGR MAP.) the MDP is the sensor that the EGR tests(x2) uses (just EGR) to see if EGR FAILS on this car , 96-98 that is its only purpose.

I see your freeze frame, and it tells me engine fails, EGR test "A" cruise fail, at 40mph,  and is not in closed lop, (OL means, EFI is not in closed loop it is open) open means FAIL.
EGR cruise test fails, and EFI is ALL WRONG.
at cruise the EFI must (fuel rates)and trim must be in closed loop,  your car fails to do that and means EFI  CAN NOT CONTROL FUELING RATES properly!!!!
it means EFI is out of control and is LOST< ,lost means, NO CLOSED LOOP FUELING now.

your mechanics, are no good, they should check that  closed loop works on this car, at idle hot, and hot running easy cruise for sure 40mph, and if these simple EFI tests fail we fix that first. (like , omg fueling is wrong why?, do fueling tests noob mech)


your FSM manual on EGR tells you clear as day not to blame EGR failing, if the EFI or engine shows that it is misfiring, and IS 100% correct,  in fact  it tells you to fix all lower codes first/.
and tells you to use pending codes to see if other codes are hiding.
The EGR is is easy to defeat , and I told you how, your EGR main is new, so can not LEAK. and the FSM< tells you way not to blame EGR,,
Tell me how can any MPD map sensor work with vacuum going nuts (bouncing) at misfire, well IT CAN NOT DO THE EGR TEST CORRECTLY until you learn to fix the base failures first.
fix EGR last.



you keep telling me this with no other facts, key, I need more facts, (driving is complex and I can not help lacking full disclosure of facts) ok?

"I noticed the power loss/hesitation/recovery thing at speeds of 20-25mph at first"

does this happen hot engine (means normal  hot 180f yours does)  (guess yes and only hot)_
does it happen cruise and wot./???????
if it does hesitate does pressing the throttle harder cure this misfire/bog,loss of power?/????????????????????????????????????

does the engine bog on hills, no cure with right foot, does it?  hills can use all 95hp of the engine, and is a great test those free to use hills.
IF no hills say so first, but you can just be more aggressive with the right foot and answer does WOT cure the bog. or loss of power, does it?
last will my engine be damaged, well no,  in general
if the engine is rich, hugely,.  the cat can overheat and melt.
Fuel system 1 -OL

tell then to fix this.  Fuel trim seems dead , CL is correct, OL is dead wrong cruising hot.
on any car this old there can be other problems even bad wiring or grounds bad or loose in the engine bay./
is the ground on right side of engine tight,? passenger side USA)



test closed LOOP on hot engine is the goal

[fixkick]

so what did they do the exhaust manifold,?  
most of these cracked on #4 runner long ago (far rear)
you said the O2 stripped out?,so how was that closed. (them moved the O2 right?
if you have this. damage, here, below, the 02 can never work right, even making it dead on fuel trim stuck at  OL mode. open loop
that uses lots more fuel and will cause hesitations, and misfiring and red hot CAT and fueling problems/
this photos is mine and all shields off,  to see the CRACKS, the cracks suck air and the 02 slams to zero 0 volts DC< and EFI goes rich,,.  no leaks here allowed ok?

[fixkick]

TPS horrors
both your links are to makers of sensor from China, no name sensors, and no catalog by them to see what right or wrong.. why not buy SMP , just then or BECK..
intermotor has no catalogs, now that is a BIG problem
and I guess you do not know many sellers show stock photos of TPS and the wrong one, the endless bad story,
or go NAPA walk in and see what they hand you 31mm base or huge. 1.22" = 31mm. the 92-95 sensors is way bigger.

no home pages and no ecatalogs for intermotor nor ramco automotive, they are importers from China and zero catalogs, making parts checks impossible but sure cheap sensors
by SMP and make sure it fits first, (31mm base was new, if yours is bigger the car has 95 parts in the engine)
SMP owns intermotor, so i sent them email asking why no intermotor catalog? for your owned sensors. them.

[3Waggintails]

I will do my best to provide the information:

1.  Yes appears only hot engine at operating temperature.  Best I can describe is that I will be cruising at a speed and if accelerate (more foot pressure on pedal) it will "bog" but recover with more pressure.  OR I have noticed that if I let pressure off accelerator pedal (instead of braking to slow down or drop speed) it will bog but recover with pressure on gas pedal.  I can't say it happens on hills.  I do have some inclining roads but does on flat for sure.  Always recovers with more foot pressure on pedal.  Never stalled and never died.

2.  My upstream 02 sensor was not removeable from exhaust manifold.  Work done by expierenced, reputable exhaust shop.  They tried everything.  So they had to create a BUNG hole in the down pipe before the CAT to put the Upstream 02 in.  They did not take shield off exhaust manifold but mentioned no leaks and I hear no exhaust manifold leak/sound either but doesnt mean not cracked I guess.  The old 02 is still in the manifold with wires cut - keeping hole plugged.

3.  What is SMP?  I am aware of horror photos of TPS or any other parts that are strictly representation - not actual part.  MY TPS is huge.  I will do my best to upload pics of mine and what I was given at Advance which is actually a Mikuni TPS.  

Dang! Says files are too large to upload....Now what?  Is there a way to email you are something otherwise to send them?  I have comparison of my TPS and what is "supposed" to be my TPS.  

Was able to get one reduced and uploaded.  Mine is on the right the BIG one.  One on left is what "supposed to be based on my year, etc and VIN.

BTW they removed intake manifold and cleaned all passages, etc new intake gaskets etc. but think I said that in new post.