cruise throttle surge

[fixkick]

can I defeat the EGR, ?
sure you can , in fact i bet it already is.
most are now, very dead. 99%?

if the quad ports in the intake are not packed solid in carbon as most are.
then all you need is vacuum path to work and CAT present.
top fails for EGR , list (those folks that get smog test know all about these)

1: CAT MISSING
2: CAT BROKE UP (THE ELEMENT INSIDE CRACKED ONE DAY THEN BROKE UP TO DUST AND BLEW OUT THE END OF TAIL PIPE)
3: The Exhaust manifold port 4 port clogged in carbon,
4: the head tunnel port same (packed)
5: the intake S tunnel same, packed. (intake manifold)
6: the 4 quad ports EGR injectors 1 or more packed. in the intake manifold.
7: the vacuum magic above fails.
8: hoses leak or missing or TRANSPOSED wrong.
9: VSV valve broken , plastic nipples there easy to snap off, doing service near by, or the 2 wires to it cut.

[1995 toad]

but the port from the intake doesn't seal off the vacuum?
please explain, this. more details.

the port in the egr that comes from the intake manifold does not seal when the egr is closed. so it has a vacuum leak through the egr (where exactly is this LEAK)

the 1995 had 2 systems used, early and late seen here,, part ID 50 is missing it is early 95. (what I call the quad port)

https://fixkick.com/EGR-Gen2a.html

it idle and not moving the car, 0mph there is no vacuum ever past the VSV valve.
hose 16 is ported vacuum "P" at idle The TV in the TB is closed and there is no vacuum to the hose 16.
the nose 20 is dead until the car move faster than 0mph
then opens and ported vacuum lands at modulator 8. (using cat back pressure to see engine load)
if the cat is not missing or hose 13  gone, then part 8 , sends vacuum to EGR MAIN #5 opens, and opens based on CAT back pressures, (then at WOT, the vsv closes)
hose 13 is exhaust back pressure bark tube,  #4 exhaust only Putt Putt Tube. this does the modulation.


early:



if any of  this fails DTC 51 happens. (if you just unplug hose 23 and put screw or golf tee in the end , EGR main stays closed and stays that way for ever. code 51 full time.

the vacuum that leaking is coming from the metal line that leads to the intake. when the egr valve is closed the vacuum leaks out of the valve. the exhaust port side is sealed from the intake side of the port.

so line 14  steel tube rusted and leaks ? what ever leaks needs only to be replaced. (use vacuum hand pump tool to find leaks is best)


for example, golf tee the end of 23 and put too at 16 hose end.
then with vacuum pump hand tool , pump it so you pull say 10 inches of vacuum, the stop and it must old holds at say 10, and proves no leaks present.
if it did leak DOWN make sure vsv #1 above is not leaking .  it is closed, at all times car not moving. (the problem on this car key must be on, or  at idle to test the lines)
if it is ok then we check both sets of lines from 16 one by one to 23, one must be leaking.

let me explain the problem testing on this car,  VSV valves are tricky in susuki land
with key off,  the valves are not in there natural state , closed,  when you key on ALL VSVs in the car go to the natural state.
the being EGR off, no vacuum flows, (lines) EVAV VSV closed. 


vsv= vacuum solenoid valve. (#1)


see facts here
https://fixkick.com/sensors/vsv.html


the full FSM vsv test is linked on that page above.
to test the VSV on car, key must be on,  ECU is on. CEL lamp in cluster in dash glows, keyon engine off. or just  idle the engine.

the vsv coil is about 35 ohms. the VSV is easy to bench test with 12vdc power pack or battery, and hand vacuum pump. as the FSM shows.


FSM = factory(real) service manual , not flying spaghetti monster.(as some say )

vacuum leaks are not always easy to find,  so  many things can leak. (here)
the famous quote by  “Nature abhors a vacuum.”

― Aristotle

no Astronauts then ; the man was earth bound, so is true .   We fight this problem here on earth.  (1bad of atmosphere wants inside the engine)



that EGR valve above is  Twsv  three way vsv.
has  2 nipples and 3 modes.
when driving say 45mph (not 0 and not wot) (wot = wide open throttle)
then the 2 main port nipples pass vacuum from the plenum 16 hose to 19 pipe. and al the way to MAIN #5
when at say idle, the vacuum at 16 hose is blocked dead at the VSV nipple, this is closed VSV but at the same time the down stream hose 19 is vented, to the atmosphere to that filter seen on the top of the VSV, this prevents EGR MAIN #5 from going vacuum locked.

when key off, vsv is in vent mode.
when key is on vsv is closed. or cranking, too.
when idling vsv is closed.
when at wot , the vsv vent modes.
when going over 0 mph , vacuum flows from end to end, if the TB  port P 16 is open this is ported vacuum and only has vacuum with foot pressing throttle some.


as you can see it is a tricky beast how EGR actually works ,just on the vacuum side,  and then the MOD valve,. now that is even more magic, (Houdini like)

The mod valve, adjusts vacuum to main5,  using CAT back pressure, this back pressure  is engine load. (crude but works, until it don't)


if you defeat the EGR
1: MPH DROPS
2: EXHUAST VALVES RUN WAY HOTTER AND LAST LESS long
3: the engine may ping under huge loads. (may)
4: the CAT is three way, and if EGR is dead the NOX part fails soon.

if the car has no cat all this above, is just a waste of time,  the EGR is already dead, or worst,  worse means the MOD valve acts wrong, causing bad things, to happen.
Now the MOD, note how it vents air, if hand tested. (see RED path?) That means all hoses and pipes really must be individually hand tested for leaks.
The MOD has  very good B diaphragm ,(silicon rubber VG ) and never fails,(cracks)  but the RED path does fail. only needs to  be cleaned. the filter can pack in dirt, easy.

here is my mod cheat sheet,   many folks use this to pass smog in calif. (seen on all toyota's same years , same valve and same PAIN)

its not 14 
the line that sends the exhaust to the intake manifold from the egr does not seal at the egr when the egr is closed and sending no exhaust to the intake.
it should seal I would think.

[fixkick]

there is no line that sends exhaust to the intake, (pipe 50)_  that is why I posted the drawing to find out where you are working touching and looking, IDK, that.
The EGR path for Exhaust is:
1: exh port #4 , bored path in exhaust manifold. (no lines no hoses here)
2: then to the head drilling path (no lines no hoses)
3: then to the S path borings and welsh plugs in intake rear sections, no lines here, no hose.
4; then the EGR is closed or not, allowing this bored path to let exhaust to to all 4 EGR injectors, if car is late 1995 it has a SSD metal PIPE 50 that sends exh, up to the TB mono port drilling behind the TB, for mono port EGR injections.
that is how the EGR path works (not vac)


lets do pipe 50 , on late year 1995 G16B EGR class 2. cars,  seen like in Calif. first by CALIF CARB rules. and all 96 and newer have this 96/98
NOTE PIPE 50,,,     seen here I cover the mono port (pipe 50  is #1 clue) here.
Pipe 50 is the only external lines that run exhaust on any sidekick, mostly on 1996  up.  older are quad port 92-95 USA. This pipe is steel stainless steel and shins no rust.













the line (which one) that sends the exhaust to the intake manifold (where is this) from the egr (4 ports on it which one) does not seal at the egr when the egr is closed and sending no exhaust to the intake.
it should seal I would think.  (yes all parts do seal but NOT THE MOD)
please tell or show the part or end of part that is not sealing IDK ,  i do not know where speak of.

[fixkick]

the bark tube (my name ) makes barking sounds or PUTT PUTT sounds if you run engine if it is removed.
this is what makes the modulator above .
this is hose. rubber, EPDM.
pipe 50 is present is a steel SST line.
the bark hose is on the #4 exhaust side not the Intake vacuum sides, but if the valve main is open it is both. obviously.
The PUTTS are strong, and the MOD regulates EGR exhaust flows.  It looks like this.
flow is vertical axis.   load on engine is horz, load is MOD valve measured, and THE CAT must present or load is zero full time. I cant see your engine whats there or missing so
I must guess what EGR grade you have,  (engine with pipe 50 or not)  pipe 50 is vastly more easy to service. (x10 that in smog states tested)

[1995 toad]

there is no line that sends exhaust to the intake, (pipe 50)_  that is why I posted the drawing to find out where you are working touching and looking, IDK, that.
The EGR path for Exhaust is:
1: exh port #4 , bored path in exhaust manifold. (no lines no hoses here)
2: then to the head drilling path (no lines no hoses)
3: then to the S path borings and welsh plugs in intake rear sections, no lines here, no hose.
4; then the EGR is closed or not, allowing this bored path to let exhaust to to all 4 EGR injectors, if car is late 1995 it has a SSD metal PIPE 50 that sends exh, up to the TB mono port drilling behind the TB, for mono port EGR injections.
that is how the EGR path works (not vac)


lets do pipe 50 , on late year 1995 G16B EGR class 2. cars,  seen like in Calif. first by CALIF CARB rules. and all 96 and newer have this 96/98
NOTE PIPE 50,,,     seen here I cover the mono port (pipe 50  is #1 clue) here.
Pipe 50 is the only external lines that run exhaust on any sidekick, mostly on 1996  up.  older are quad port 92-95 USA. This pipe is steel stainless steel and shins no rust.













the line (which one) that sends the exhaust to the intake manifold (where is this) from the egr (4 ports on it which one) does not seal at the egr when the egr is closed and sending no exhaust to the intake.
it should seal I would think.  (yes all parts do seal but NOT THE MOD)
please tell or show the part or end of part that is not sealing IDK ,  i do not know where speak of.

that is what I am talking about. that seems like that should seal when the valve is closed or there is a vacuum leak and idle problems when warm.. put another new valve in tonight. seemed sealed when egr closed... we will see what happens... does the probe signal the ecm that the egr is bad?  What makes the code get sent for the egr..

[fixkick]

that is what I am talking about. (what ?)  are you telling me you have PIPE ID#50 or not?)  please tell me this? and part 36.  (if yes it is the full blown CALIF car version code E33)

that seems like that (what does that mean? (name the part ID please) should seal when the valve (MAIN5?) is closed or there is a vacuum leak and idle problems when warm..

put another new valve in tonight.  (which valve there are 3 VALVES at least. ,main, MOD and vsv)
seemed sealed when egr closed... (please tell exact part there are many)
we will see what happens...

does the probe signal the ecm that the egr is bad?  (the probe is the CALIF EGR thermister sensor, and if the ECU sees the EGR fail to warm the sensor BAM CODE 51)
What makes the code get sent for the egr..  (easy the ECU scans it any time it activates the EGR over 0mph,  and if the EGRT probe is missing or dead, or fails to shot HOT, CODE 51.
Great question and the 96+ uses EGR MAP sensor and does 2 tests not one to test EGR (harder to pass too)


That the EGR SYstem evolved, by generations and by CALIF laws that latter were adopted by FED LAw, EPA. My ECU pages show those, and when they happened.

The first car 1992 (16v) has no pipe 50, nor has EGRT thermo sensor ID #36  (engine swaps happen and I can not see your engine and what is there in full)
the CALIF laws, added 36 and then adopted USA wide, (see function matrix here)
[/url]
there are 2 kinds of Customers here,  one that can't pass SMOG IM240 tests. (in calif or any state , many that make you do thata)
then there are other folks with EGR parts leaking or parts stuck open,.  causes vacuum leaks on any 16valve G16 invites lean mix and performance issues. (bad gasket 6)
or both, reasons.  (smog test and engine problems) The EGR that sticks open can stall and engine. (most time EGR main is BAD for that)


the EGR main can stick or leak at the EGR MAIN valve, this is very common and the engine wants to stall.
EGR MUST BE disabled (ecu logic does that) at idle if not every stop light you stall. (so common this)

vast  and valid problems are associated with the EGR.
gasket 6 missing or cracked or not the high temperature rated fails fast  and sucks air (vacuum leaks)

to test THE EGR for (non smog test failure reasons ,just  testing for drive ability  issues) is easy. kinda....

1 : make sure gasket 6 is not missing or a wrecked and sucking AIR.  (good and valid gaskets work best , the look silver'ish,  the silver is heat proof !!!
2: make sure the EGR main #5 is not body cracked, yes they can crack. and suck air and makes the MAF reading now wrong,. for sure at idle. and never good.
3: then  with engine dead cold (no burn fingers) push the EGR 5 test ring inward and release, make sure the valve goes thunk each time and seals or it is hopeless to use this valve it MUST CLOSE and stay closed at idle.  ONce 100% sure the MAIN5 is closed, pull the vacuum line 23 and GOLF TEE IT, (or use screw that seals the end of 23) now EGR IS DEAD but CLOSED!
4: drive  the car if you have problems with misfire , bogs,  or hesitations in power at the the throttle , that means you have other problems not associated with EGR.


for smog testing , code 51 is that.  to make EGR actually work start here on my Gen2 page.  (how to make code 51 go away as smog states mandate)
[url=https://www.fixkick.com/EGR.html]see the first line that shows stall test.


IF THE ENGINE FAILS WITH EGR  defeated, there are vast things that cause cruising SURGE.

1.  Not violent misfire (like bad spark plugs or gapped wrong, or spark wires bad, cap and rotor.(old)
   
2. smooth SURGE would be,  (well a huge list but here) #1 is low fuel pressure or FPR bad causing that. FPR must work or fueling correctly is hopeless, and FPR  all love to fail NOW.
   
3. The car is 1995 we have vast FPR failures,  doing the pressure tests,  its like omg the FPR IS DEAD< , and if the vacuum nipple to the FPR is leaking fuel it is DEAD.
   
4. injector leaks or clogs, mostly from bad fuel or parking car for over a year. unused.
   
5. MAF dirty (ever clean it? it is a service POINT) or bad, it must measure air flows correctly (mass air flow ) sensor. or Fueling will be iffy. (can be)
   
6. O2 (oxy) sensor front (B1S0 ) bad, will make any car fuel wrong. seen cards with all above bad, after all the car is  25 years old.
   
7. Does engine have full WOT up  hill performance full power wide open throttle and no BOGGING and no violent misfiring?
   
8. The surge is most time fuel related, to little, is what I'd guess, called AFR too lean, (air fuel ratio) Id have to drive car to say that.  feel it I can.
   
9. There is a thing called (me) TIP IN Hesitations, when you move the right foot cruising the engine hesitates but catches up, this is TPS bad. The TPS in this mode is ENRICH mode.
   
10. if the surge is steady foot then it is not TPS caused,(easy no/?)"mostly"
    
11. Engine not reaching 180f and holding normal coolant temps.  it must rise , hit 180f and hold, at all times. (dash gauge holds mid scale, yes and holds) Coolant temp gauge.
    
12.  (yes, weak engine,  low compression on 1 to 4 cylinders, or all 4, and timing belt slipped.)
    
13. I;m sure i missed some here,  but I will think on this for a day.....
    

[fixkick]

at your 1st post , it would  have been better showing photos of engine, so we can see what you have. ( stock, not stock, missing parts and wrong parts are 10x more easy for me to see)
and answers vary by all that.
top view best, so I can see all parts on the engine.

DO YOU HAVE PART 50 and 36?
many of these cars must have 36 but last owner lost it some how or installed and illegal year 92 , EGR main on the engine. super common to see, and no chances to pass smog in CALIF.

also one why to learn if the CAR uses #36 is to tell the ECU part number, that tells me if it has 36. (the older cars used vacuum tests to test , EGR functions)
see ecu 1-7 here.?  (the ECU dictates what EGR parts must be present on your engine)

[fixkick]

in the USA here are the smog test states,
https://www.mytime.com/guide/Smog-Check/...ence-guide

that rule
5-25 year old cars, is very wise. new cars are clean, all are, unless wrecked offroad damage, under body, CAT ,, etc.
and over 25years old the parts are not sold to fix smog this old, vast cars this old, many parts can not be bought. (yugo, suzuki, ISUZU,SAAB, and lots more SATURN? , volvo, , lots more the wiki has and endless list...)
Cars go defunct, and suzuki has vast parts listed as Discontinued now.... and only 2 online stores, west and east coast.
Some cars missing parts are picked up by 3rd party seller but some states do not allow, non true certified, smog parts (calif CARB or EPA) in there state. even exhaust CAT FORWARD not allowed.
Lucky if you look on rockauto.com most of the parts related are there. EGR main and sensor and little else on topic. no legal exhaust manifold for 16v, that is EGR device #4 port. NO MOD VALVE , NO VSV.
and prices, OMG huge, like 2 times what they were a few years back. (fiat currency!)

if you get smog checked this is first. as always and where, matters! BIG TIME.

[fixkick]

code 51 btw is 99% carbon impacted paths, blockage, for sure that nasty quad port engine , part 50 missing , is the hard nut to crack (fix)
even the sensor alone can pack in cake of carbon. easy.

[1995 toad]

that is what I am talking about. (what ?)  are you telling me you have PIPE ID#50 or not?)  please tell me this? and part 36.  (if yes it is the full blown CALIF car version code E33)

that seems like that (what does that mean? (name the part ID please) should seal when the valve (MAIN5?) is closed or there is a vacuum leak and idle problems when warm..

put another new valve in tonight.  (which valve there are 3 VALVES at least. ,main, MOD and vsv)
seemed sealed when egr closed... (please tell exact part there are many)
we will see what happens...

does the probe signal the ecm that the egr is bad?  (the probe is the CALIF EGR thermister sensor, and if the ECU sees the EGR fail to warm the sensor BAM CODE 51)
What makes the code get sent for the egr..  (easy the ECU scans it any time it activates the EGR over 0mph,  and if the EGRT probe is missing or dead, or fails to shot HOT, CODE 51.
Great question and the 96+ uses EGR MAP sensor and does 2 tests not one to test EGR (harder to pass too)


That the EGR SYstem evolved, by generations and by CALIF laws that latter were adopted by FED LAw, EPA. My ECU pages show those, and when they happened.

The first car 1992 (16v) has no pipe 50, nor has EGRT thermo sensor ID #36  (engine swaps happen and I can not see your engine and what is there in full)
the CALIF laws, added 36 and then adopted USA wide, (see function matrix here)
[/url]
there are 2 kinds of Customers here,  one that can't pass SMOG IM240 tests. (in calif or any state , many that make you do thata)
then there are other folks  with EGR parts leaking or parts stuck open,.  causes vacuum leaks on any 16valve G16 invites lean mix and performance issues. (bad gasket 6)
or both, reasons.  (smog test and engine problems) The EGR that sticks open can stall and engine. (most time EGR main is BAD for that)


the EGR main can stick or leak at the EGR MAIN valve, this is very common and the engine wants to stall.
EGR MUST BE disabled (ecu logic does that) at idle if not every stop light you stall. (so common this)

vast  and valid problems are associated with the EGR.
gasket 6 missing or cracked or not the high temperature rated fails fast  and sucks air (vacuum leaks)

to test THE EGR for (non smog test failure reasons ,just  testing for drive ability  issues) is easy. kinda....

1 : make sure gasket 6 is not missing or a wrecked and sucking AIR.  (good and valid gaskets work best , the look silver'ish,  the silver is heat proof !!!
2: make sure the EGR main #5 is not body cracked, yes they can crack. and suck air and makes the MAF reading now wrong,. for sure at idle. and never good.
3: then  with engine dead cold (no burn fingers) push the EGR 5 test ring inward and release, make sure the valve goes thunk each time and seals or it is hopeless to use this valve it MUST CLOSE and stay closed at idle.  ONce 100% sure the MAIN5 is closed, pull the vacuum line 23 and GOLF TEE IT, (or use screw that seals the end of 23) now EGR IS DEAD but CLOSED!
4: drive  the car if you have problems with misfire , bogs,  or hesitations in power at the the throttle , that means you have other problems not associated with EGR.


for smog testing , code 51 is that.  to make EGR actually work start here on my Gen2 page.  (how to make code 51 go away as smog states mandate)
[url=https://www.fixkick.com/EGR.html]see the first line that shows stall test.


IF THE ENGINE FAILS WITH EGR  defeated, there are vast things that cause cruising SURGE.

1.  Not violent misfire (like bad spark plugs or gapped wrong, or spark wires bad, cap and rotor.(old)
   
2. smooth SURGE would be,  (well a huge list but here) #1 is low fuel pressure or FPR bad causing that. FPR must work or fueling correctly is hopeless, and FPR  all love to fail NOW.
   
3. The car is 1995 we have vast FPR failures,  doing the pressure tests,  its like omg the FPR IS DEAD< , and if the vacuum nipple to the FPR is leaking fuel it is DEAD.
   
4. injector leaks or clogs, mostly from bad fuel or parking car for over a year. unused.
   
5. MAF dirty (ever clean it? it is a service POINT) or bad, it must measure air flows correctly (mass air flow ) sensor. or Fueling will be iffy. (can be)
   
6. O2 (oxy) sensor front (B1S0 ) bad, will make any car fuel wrong. seen cards with all above bad, after all the car is  25 years old.
   
7. Does engine have full WOT up  hill performance full power wide open throttle and no BOGGING and no violent misfiring?
   
8. The surge is most time fuel related, to little, is what I'd guess, called AFR too lean, (air fuel ratio) Id have to drive car to say that.  feel it I can.
   
9. There is a thing called (me) TIP IN Hesitations, when you move the right foot cruising the engine hesitates but catches up, this is TPS bad. The TPS in this mode is ENRICH mode.
   
10. if the surge is steady foot then it is not TPS caused,(easy no/?)"mostly"
    
11. Engine not reaching 180f and holding normal coolant temps.  it must rise , hit 180f and hold, at all times. (dash gauge holds mid scale, yes and holds) Coolant temp gauge.
    
12.  (yes, weak engine,  low compression on 1 to 4 cylinders, or all 4, and timing belt slipped.)
    
13. I;m sure i missed some here,  but I will think on this for a day.....
    

that's what im talking about is line 50     vacuum coming from it
valve im talking about is the egr    not sealing vacuum coming from 50.
the surge or miss went away with the first new egr 
after about 75 miles the cel came on with 51 code and idle would go to about 300 or 400 then recover after about 30 seconds or so to 800 other than that it ran great. none of the idle problems show till warm
pulled the new egr and found vacuum from line 50 leaking through the egr valve while at idle and exhaust side closed.
installed new egr and haven't driven it yet. 
the only non stock thing is a gutted cat do to a slide off the road landing on cat with curb. it had been gutted for about 2 years prior to all these issues.
At idle I have a fairly good vacuum (haven't put a gauge on it but holds a finger tight when covered) 
also at idle I have fairly good Exhaust pressure ( again no pressure gauge).
Don't need to pass smog

How do I test the egrt probe? is it a on or off switch or at different temps, different resistances
if the egr doesn't seal the vacuum off that comes from hose 50 what filters that air. ie like the vacuum coming to valve that's turned on by the exhaust pressure to activate the egr.

thanks much I appreciate your time