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CEL out, cannot pull OBD1 codes. How to fix?
#1
Hi all. For background I have a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick JX with 2 door soft-top, 1.6L G16A 8v motor, 3 speed automatic, 4x4 w/ auto hubs, 226k miles and I think it'll make 300k with the work I'm putting in!
[For the record I have been reading this site for a year and have so much more to learn yet. First I want to thank the man who made this site. Just, WOW and thank you! Anyways:]

When I first got this car I was having some steering/grinding from the front end, a noticeable lack of power but not in limphome mode AND a misfire... so I just replaced ALL of this: inner and outer tie rod ends on both sides, wheel bearing for left side (right already done by previous owner), right front brake caliper, new brakes (rotors were good), left front CV axle.. that took care of my front end.

I also got a new battery (acid stratified), new spark plug wires (2 shocked me, unbelievable that this car worked), new spark plugs (no oil on them thank god, but white..), a new distributor cap and rotor (moisture was getting in). That took care of my ignition for the most part and the issues I had with moisture are gone.

I also got a new air filter (and changed my oil/filter obviously) as I understand a misfire can come from one of three areas: Fuel, Air, Ignition. When I pulled my plugs: the tips were white (indicating a rich condition? or maybe they were just old?). I'm researching how to fix my rich/lean condition which is what got me to where I am. Anyways:

The main issue that I have is so simple and if I can fix it, then I can fix the rest of my truck most likely. My left, outer-most lights on my dash are out. It is the Check Engine Light, the oil light AND the left turn signal light (the signal still clicks and works as it should, it is just the light is out). All other dash lights work perfectly. It is just those 3.. the 2 outermost (CEL and oil) on that row and then the left turn blinker in my dash.

Question: Do I have a fuse out? Or is it one bulb? Or multiple bulbs? How do I fix this? (Please dont say I have to pull the whole dash)... I need my CEL to work because my truck has OBD1+paperclip jumper on 2+3 diagnostics and without the CEL working: I cannot pull codes to find out exactly what is going on.

My biggest problem now.. besides researching how to get my air/fuel mixture right and improve my 20mpg gas mileage..is that I am losing power/ RPM's while going uphill. Noticeably. I suspect my fuel filter may be clogged and uphill causes gravity to make the pump work harder. So I am going to change the fuel filter. I have no sounds from my pump (I think, I do have a slight tapping when I accelerate..happens most when it is cold or I first start it up.. and it goes away after a few minutes..I can't pinpoint where it comes from but may be injectors? does a failing pump make THAT sound? It is just a light tapping that does not sound like rod knock or lifters ..I think) Anyways..

..I read the instructions on how to depressurize the fuel lines and I am going to replace the fuel filter as I believe that is my problem. (If not then maybe a fuel pump or clean my fuel injector? I only have the one as it is the TBI set up) I am also going to run a fuel system cleaner through it in case my injectors are clogged (but if they were then it would do it all of the time and not only uphill?) AND I am also going to clean my throttle body as that is just good practice. (Tight on cash this week, get paid weekly and do a repair weekly, throttle body cleaning is my "off week" maintenance)

Anyways the main question is in regards to the CEL. Is it a bulb or a fuse- how would I fix this so I can pull my codes? The CEL fix is my starting point because if I can pull codes then I can fix what I need to instead of just replacing everything and starting at the cheapest.
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#2
hello and welcome.  yes long ago i made this in 2007, at 1/2 retired and board, in winter time.
others run it now.
yes the CEL lamp is burned out for sure this many years.

it just twists out. (in 1996 up it harder to  reach with steel boxed in speedo box.  (side impact beams added then)
only yours  there are 2 ways to get to it ,  down and under, they are twist clock lamps sockets. even  drivers seat removed,  and if hands small enough and luck.
the CEL is way way up high.
or cluster pulled,  no need to pull dash until heater core leaks.

20mpg sound bad, 26 is par,
loss of power, with gas cap off?  bad cap pulls tank vacuum and make pump weak fuel pressure low. the injector has 10micro screens,  easy to clean, impossible on 16v 4 injectors need ultra sonic clean.
if too lean misfire all 4 spark plugs go lean not just one like 16v can do.
so is more easy to diagnose any 8v.
8v needs first, these key part working, vacuum lines to MAP perfect, no cracks or clogs end to end there.
ECT good reads 300 ohms hot if right thermostat is not doing 180f, and if is, the ECT bad reading wrong is big trouble.  get engine fully hot, pull ect plug and using DMM to ECT pins see 300ohms,

back to CEL.

cluster pull is easy,. just  screws.
https://fixkick.com/power-elect/cluster-...r-out.html

your year is here from book tracker.
https://fixkick.com/power-elect/cluster-...r-pull.pdf

step 4 is only tricky part the speedo cable plastic locker,  just tickle its 2 tangs inside the shell and it comes off,
then pull 2 connectors and its free...

do you have tilt steering option? lower it.

CEL is #18 GE lamp.

see my bulbs here
https://fixkick.com/buy-parts#Bulbs


here is min,  12+ lamps I think,, use flash light from front to see CEL words, to cheat. Cell is top row below.
[Image: 63AA0-912WDMT.jpg]


more misfire talk
low fuel pressure is #1 bad fuel filter, do not lose its 4x banjo copper washers. hard to find.
the pump runs keyon for 3 seconds only,  and cranked and obvious, running.
the pump  making noise has bad commutator segments ON DC MOTOR END.. IF SUPER LOUD.
power loss for sure hot engine,(means normal)
low fuel pressure, map clogged, or filter clogged ,or melted CAT, the later makes vacuum tests look super wild/strange, gunning throttle if cat melted.
if compression not 160psi but is 80 x4, the cam belt slipped.  super low power if does. all the time.
is yours showing low power cold engine? or only hot or both.


yah if the CEL is dead, I too would want to code 12s first,
this ECU only sees dead sensors,  dead open or shorted, not weak.
if it bad , we need to know it first. thing,. code 13 up.

this car the 02 sensor if this old has no real chance of working and if not working will force rich.
a dead O2 is zero volts lean, so ECU goes max rich, (lied to)
in limphome it can do 15mpg,  super gas hog mode.

sounds like you are on roll,  making lots of things wrong good.
this car if compression is ok can be made to run good if the 3sp works.

cheers to you !

PS: (8v simple schematic for engine)
https://fixkick.com/ECU/8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg


the  Cel runs off same fuse as ECU if IGcoil fuse pops ECU goes dead, and spark and all fuel.
your cluster has power, if IGcoil good (it is) and DOME FUSE.

see page 16 for all lamps there.
https://fixkick.com/look/91-complete.pdf

the tail dome fuse runs park lamps and the 2 cluster back lamps via the dimmer.  and runs all most lamps in the cluster as power source.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#3
Lightbulb 
oh wow thank you so much for the detailed response!

I have a friend who has small hands and we're going to try to change the #18 bulb for the CEL as you have shown me and if not then we're going to pull the instrument panel and speedo to get to it as you said. Thank you so much! Getting that fixed is going to show me my next steps AFTER what I've figured out and know that I need to fix.

Misfire: I may have exaggerated slightly when I said it's noticeable lack of power. It's not terrible but I can just tell it needs some love. I have noticed that it DOES seem to run more sluggish when cold and also at low speeds (it seems to really get its groove once its shifted into 3rd). Also, when I let off the gas it is REALLY throaty and i smell exhaust (hole in the floorboard, I suspect causing that). I put fuel system cleaner in it and it's running noticeably better uphill but I am still losing RPM's and I can just tell that it is struggling uphill way, way more than it should.

Also, when I looked at the gas cap that you mentioned I noticed that the.. shoot, the metal part.. i dont know how to describe it but the metal part from the gas cap screw to the opening looks like there is a gap there like they replaced the tank previously and it doesn't connect all of the way? I may be mistaken. Also when I go to fill up my tank.. it will be on E like all the way empty and I can just NEVER get more than 8.7 to 9 gallons of fuel into it. Maybe it's the gauge and it's being measured wrong and I still have a gallon or 2 when it is showing empty (great!) BUT I also almost wonder if someone didn't put a 10 gallon tank back onto it. (or even 9 gallon)Would that work? That would also make sense of my mpg calculations as instead of getting roughly 230 miles on 11 gallons (right at 21mpg) it would be 23mpg on a 10 gallon tank or right at the 26mpg you're saying if it were a 9 gallon tank. I also could just be not running it all of the way empty and the gauge is wrong- since again, I cannot fit more than about 8.7 gallons into it when it is showing all of the way on E.

Anyways..
Per your advice and upon further research: I am positive that my upstream O2 sensor that you mentioned is shot and I am going to replace it but take extreme care not to mess up the exhaust manifold when I do so. I am also replacing the fuel filter ASAP and taking care not to lose those washers on the banjo connector there. I'm also going to replace those vacuum hoses to the MAP and identify some other hoses because I checked a few of them and they are OLD and not necessarily cracked but they feel noticeably gritty and may be without me noticing may be cracked. It makes sense for me to check more of the air intake and fuel system since i took care of the ignition in regards to the misfire. the misfire is happening FAR less since I replaced those terrible wires but it still needs what I have mentioned above. I would guess that after I change the fuel filter and O2 sensor that it's going to run WAY better.

I'm also going to check my catalytic converter to make sure it's ok as well because I am a bit concerned. I've never smelled rotten eggs but I have smelled exhaust (but have floorboard hole) and may have missed it .

If you know why it's making that very loud throaty sound and exhaust smell (but note I have that small hole in floorboard) when I let off of the throttle then let me know. It may be a symptom of one of the above, or something else, that is obvious but I am not a trained ear and have missed. I will make the above repairs while waiting on the lamp and then replace the CEL light. Once I have that then I'll know for sure what I need to do, if anything else.
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#4
yes there are 2 tanks 2door and 4door cars use not same gallong tanks.
there is no air leaks, on the tank it is closed evap rated system and on warming up day the tank goes to positive pressure. (at gas station hear cap of whoosh? that is good sound like gassing up at noon to 4pm hot day)


then at night cooling it wants to go to a vacuum only if the cap vacuum breaker is clogged or missing.(not there wrong cap)
if wrong cap the tank can self crush it self as you sleep , huge vacuum there. or be super hard to start car cold morning , until cap is unscrewed.
The tank can have the wrong sender too. (8v and 16v senders are not the same)

smell exh?, is a real rich mixture.
that mpg is never going to be easy to measure, (old cars) but the gas island pump tells you gallons you used, if tanks is filled up and not over filled.
no tank is overfilled it must have air on top for hot days full, fuel expands hot, and if tank is too full the the tank will leak fuel;
the the gauges are all lie at "E" it for sure tells you empty when not empty just like new cars do and even beeps 24+miles before NO FUEL (my jeep does)

if you have monster mudder tires, on car like 31" the odometer will not read correctly at all, in fact will read low, causing false LOW MPG (mileage lies)

big tires axle turns slower, vss clicks slower , odometer spins slower. (all lies)
your tank is 10.6 gallons (2door sized)
seen in the operators guide, need on? see post #1 links on main forum page, 1. operators guides.

so at 8 gallons burned station pump 1 next time, is 8 gallons 8 x 26 = 208 miles distance, if tires are stock. (and transfer case speedo gear set not wrong)
2.6 gallons left, 8 burned. (even wrong axles on car) all wrong things here wrong parts, cause axle speed errors and odometer errors.

The FUEL gauge lies to you on purpose, on all cars made for over 30 years and more. by design. and F/E gauge is non linear too, Full needle is late to move off full making many folks think it great great MPG, but is only fooling us.
My JK jeep is 4000 pound 2 door and this car you have is 2000 lbs. light as kite, in the world of cars, and is why it gets super 26mpg. even more at 55mph long run not city traffic,.

but all this is moot, all that ,the engine runs bad.
are the CAPS in the ECU leaking green slime( boric acid nasty) ? look for damage there.



upstream O2 (there is no down stream O2 until 1996) OBD2
it's just 02 sensor. and is nice ! cast iron 8v manifold, if O2 is too tight cold try hot engine with gloves. to get it out.
One tactic is use penetrating oil (spray on bottom 02 only) let sit over night see if it be budged. CCW is looser, righty tighty lefty loosey.

if the O2 is dead, as most are this old and ignored.
just unplug OS and that stink goes down, and better MPG, and do that until new O2 is bought.
a dead 02 is zero volts out , max rich.
unplugged,. it reads 0.45vdc and it lies to it self and uses way less fuel. on new cars it discovers this and logs errors max, not this car.
0 to 1vdc is the range, 1v force max lean fuel.


rotten eggs is a CAT burning up fuel inside (wasted fuel) only good new cat stinks , this old it is a dead cat. like most are this old. and stink free cat.
it no longer catalyses (3 ways) can not stink. (by stink I mean rotten eggs , not just unburned fuel smell)
The cat does not make engine run better but if melted cat is like smashing the header pipe flat.

the exhaust MANIFOLD, on 8v do not crack like all 16v do, nor that funky 16v 90deg pre cat header(collapse) that caused the suzuki recall back then (the day)
the 8v MAN does not crack easy unless someone forced the 02 out , like a gorilla would. (hey bob (fake name) get a bigger hammer)
the 8v header end has 3 studs and 3 nuts missing,? and gasket there gone or cracked up.
the cat has weled to header pipe is it cracked or rusted through?


here a one man EXHAUST LEAK test, car idling
i take some hose, any hose, even an old cut to 2foot long garden hose, put one end to ear, move other end, (gloves on) and find putt putt sounds on the whole exh path front to rear, front will be load barks , but rear noise softer. muffler action. if cracked. expect no sounds, in hose, or you have CRACKS.
the cracks will not make engine run bad unless air leaking cracks are very near 02.
now?
the engine is barfing out huge, CO toxic fumes now (misfiring and cracks) you then are breathing silent killer CO (carbon monoxide) if you get a head ache first. bingo. CO is there, and not to be ignored. (lots of boat owner die from this, as do BBQ , in confined spaces.

run for fresh air, do all testing on car this bad out doors not in a garage. lacking safety fans.

Ok
good luck to you getting that CEL lamp out , it is not easy, cluster inplace, some can be remove , but some are super hard to reach on the top row.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#5
I have stock tires and no aftermarket lift or anything on it. The speedometer is only like 1mph off (if the State Police's speed sign is correct haha). It has P205/75R/15 97S tires on the front and on the back. I was going to replace it with all of those if I can find them.. (if not then is putting 215/70R/15 close enough like I saw someone else say?)

Furthermore when looking up spec on this I actually saw that is called for the 205/75/15 on the front but then 195/75/15 on the back. Mine's the part time 4x4 so the rear does the pushing. (I understand what the letters numbers mean: Passenger vehicle, 1st # being width in mm, 2nd # % of width the sidewall is high, Radial, then rim size and the number 97 after is the rating for it--- but was always under the impression that if you did have different sized tires on the back, then larger? or am I mistaken? i definitely though it odd to see a slightly narrower, shorter tire on the back.)

I do need a Service Manual and I'm going to spend my day off today pouring thru your site, thank you for the shortcuts! Cat is not visibly damaged or rusted. When I get the hoses, I am also going to get a small piece of tubing so I can listen like you have described! I followed every single bit of both of these replies and I'm re-reading it after I read the relevant manual for each part that you have made- to make sure that I'm not missing anything.

thank you so much for the advice and the tips/tricks and the time you've spent replying! I'm nowhere near a trained ear or tech but still with the info I gave you, via the net, you were able to cast a wide net and give me ALL of the information that I need to get me going down the right path or at least keep me busy for a little while replacing things that are definitely bad while diagnosing other things that may be.

I can literally feel myself becoming smarter every time I talk to you because I find myself looking at the inside of the car differently (I'm identifying things that I didn't know before like MAP vacuum hose, hose leading into throttle body for example is GRITTY to the touch and absolutely has to have some small cracking in there somewhere even though I didn't see it) Point is? Im replacing some hoses FOR SURE.

I also don't want to say too many more symptoms that I'm experiencing (I got most of them but the problems kind of evolve. If I notice it one day it will still run but the problem will just slowly get worse of course until I fix it. This car WANTS to run!! I swear it does because it gives me subtle, then not-so-subtle warning BEFORE something goes bad AND i'd even swear that this car is giving me the time to get the money together it seems!) But the point is that until I replace the list of things that I know need replacing already then I may continue to say something like "i smell exhaust when I let off of the throttle" and then later on realize I should have said "exhaust is generous to call it. it smells more like a mixture of raw fuel, exhaust, and slightly light burning plastic when I let off of the throttle". and once I have those other things fixed then we will know what it is not at least for now..

from what you've told me, and it's not this simple I am sure as there are multiple things that need replacing that could be causing just part of the total "not running right" (expertly worded lol) condition... but it sounds like:

1) I definitely have a bad o2 sensor.
2) I definitely have fuel pressure issues (low) likely caused by a clogged filter, but it could also be a failing pump. I lose RPM's going uphill so I get into the throttle more which I feel like may be sending raw fuel out of the exhaust when I, then, let off of the throttle going back down hill? Is it possible that the way I am having to drive to compensate for the clogged fuel filter may be causing that fuel-rich exhaust smell?
3) something likely downstream of the o2 on the exhaust may be bad (since there is already a new muffler) I'm thinking dead cat. I'm going to check it out for sure how you told me and if THAT is the problem then I will be fixing it first thing.

thank you for the advice on this as I literally got on here this morning to tell you that I suspect you're right bout the CAT and it's clogged/melted or at least failing OR that something else wrong is causing exhaust-smell symptoms.

I'll get on the filter and o2 sensor first as well as the hoses and I'll check the catalytic converter/downstream exhaust PLUS check capacitors on the ECU for damage. Again, thank you so much especially for the trick on unplugging O2 sensor for now to fix the condition, or erm well to fool the ECU by changing the 0v condition. i definitely understood that! my dad, luckily, taught me to think outside of the box so I am pick up on little hacks/tricks and understand the system as a whole, at least)

Josh

P.S. I found a 2dr 8v parts car 5sp (unsure of 4x4 or 4x2), someone warped the head on it but it has a new timing belt and new tires (plus the full sized spare that I need) $400 for the whole thing. I was just about to get a new set of tires anyways ;-) So luckily I am in a position where I will have access to the "hard to find spare parts" you have listed unless of course they're out on both vehicles lol. Neither is rusted badly but.. you know, hedging my investment with a parts car haha :-)

if I didn't have access to your site.. I would not be able to do this. Thank you again SO MUCH. You help regular people like me. I'm a home health nurse actually: help keep people home and out of those horrible nursing homes. I don't do it for the cash, that's for sure, so you help me a lot by being able to work on my vehicle. Before this I had only ever worked on the 3800 series GM engines. These pre-96 kicks are much so much more simple and the parts so much more cheap- but you are the missing part. so thank you for what you do for us all!
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#6
(06-27-2020, 11:22 PM), z1joshmon Wrote: I have stock tires and no aftermarket lift or anything on it. The speedometer is only like 1mph off (if the State Police's speed sign is correct haha). It has P205/75R/15 97S tires on the front and on the back. I was going to replace it with all of those if I can find them.. (if not then is putting 215/70R/15 close enough like I saw someone else say?)

Furthermore when looking up spec on this I actually saw that is called for the 205/75/15 on the front but then 195/75/15 on the back. Mine's the part time 4x4 so the rear does the pushing. (I understand what the letters numbers mean: Passenger vehicle, 1st # being width in mm, 2nd # % of width the sidewall is high, Radial, then rim size and the number 97 after is the rating for it--- but was always under the impression that if you did have different sized tires on the back, then larger? or am I mistaken? i definitely though it odd to see a slightly narrower, shorter tire on the back.) tires are different too USA from say EU but are are matched ! no 4wd bucking allowed, and equal braking and steering at any speed, is a goal. (ABS is even more strict)

I do need a Service Manual and I'm going to spend my day off today pouring thru your site, thank you for the shortcuts! Cat is not visibly damaged or rusted. When I get the hoses, I am also going to get a small piece of tubing so I can listen like you have described! I followed every single bit of both of these replies and I'm re-reading it after I read the relevant manual for each part that you have made- to make sure that I'm not missing anything.

thank you so much for the advice and the tips/tricks and the time you've spent replying! I'm nowhere near a trained ear or tech but still with the info I gave you, via the net, you were able to cast a wide net and give me ALL of the information that I need to get me going down the right path or at least keep me busy for a little while replacing things that are definitely bad while diagnosing other things that may be.

I can literally feel myself becoming smarter every time I talk to you because I find myself looking at the inside of the car differently (I'm identifying things that I didn't know before like MAP vacuum hose, hose leading into throttle body for example is GRITTY to the touch and absolutely has to have some small cracking in there somewhere even though I didn't see it) Point is? Im replacing some hoses FOR SURE.

I also don't want to say too many more symptoms that I'm experiencing (I got most of them but the problems kind of evolve. If I notice it one day it will still run but the problem will just slowly get worse of course until I fix it. This car WANTS to run!! I swear it does because it gives me subtle, then not-so-subtle warning BEFORE something goes bad AND i'd even swear that this car is giving me the time to get the money together it seems!) But the point is that until I replace the list of things that I know need replacing already then I may continue to say something like "i smell exhaust when I let off of the throttle" and then later on realize I should have said "exhaust is generous to call it. it smells more like a mixture of raw fuel, exhaust, and slightly light burning plastic when I let off of the throttle". and once I have those other things fixed then we will know what it is not at least for now..
If you had a 4 or 5 gas exhaust analyser right no the AFR would be (hot 180f) engine , pegged, 10:1, or worse not 14.7:1 spec.
if you smell rich it is.  for sure. cat or no cat.

from what you've told me, and it's not this simple I am sure as there are multiple things that need replacing that could be causing just part of the total "not running right" (expertly worded lol) condition... but it sounds like:

1) I definitely have a bad o2 sensor.
2) I definitely have fuel pressure issues (low) likely caused by a clogged filter, but it could also be a failing pump. I lose RPM's going uphill so I get into the throttle more which I feel like may be sending raw fuel out of the exhaust when I, then, let off of the throttle going back down hill? Is it possible that the way I am having to drive to compensate for the clogged fuel filter may be causing that fuel-rich exhaust smell?
if misfiring up hill that is bad spark or way to rich fueling, (spark gap is 0.028 never 0.045" as it is OOBE (out of the box expiernce)
if lean , up hell the car will not misfire, (felt or heard) it will bog, like dragging a 10,000 lb weight up help,. (or called gross lack of power but is smooth no violent)

3) something likely downstream of the o2 on the exhaust may be bad (since there is already a new muffler) I'm thinking dead cat. I'm going to check it out for sure how you told me and if THAT is the problem then I will be fixing it first thing.
ONly a melted CAT will be a problem the this engine or ECU can tell the Cat is good or bad , as 1996+ can, no it  can not. you need no cat to run and get 80HP.


thank you for the advice on this as I literally got on here this morning to tell you that I suspect you're right bout the CAT and it's clogged/melted or at least failing OR that something else wrong is causing exhaust-smell symptoms. (if the cat is not melted inside and clogged) the ENGINE ECU is running rich, if too rich the engine misfires, (spark foul out rich)


I'll get on the filter and o2 sensor first as well as the hoses and I'll check the catalytic converter/downstream exhaust PLUS check capacitors on the ECU for damage. Again, thank you so much especially for the trick on unplugging O2 sensor for now to fix the condition, or erm well to fool the ECU by changing the 0v condition. i definitely understood that! my dad, luckily, taught me to think outside of the box so I am pick up on little hacks/tricks and understand the system as a whole, at least)

the cat melt test is easy for sure with $20 vacuum gauge. 7ways there are, #2 is the vacuum test , the most cheap way.

The vacuum on any car with melted cat (4cyc, Non V engine) the engine will not start or will have horrid power. (like 1 cylinder engine)
The first thing we see is vacuum test, fails HARD as a rock, vacuum is low and is actually inverted, backwards,  clear as day if it runs at all.
As you can see the tests are based on what tools you  have,  even  old fuel pump pressure gauge for CARB cars, works for O2 Backpressure over 2psi is bad cat
.


Josh

P.S. I found a 2dr 8v parts car 5sp (unsure of 4x4 or 4x2), someone warped the head on it but it has a new timing belt and new tires (plus the full sized spare that I need) $400 for the whole thing. I was just about to get a new set of tires anyways ;-) So luckily I am in a position where I will have access to the "hard to find spare parts" you have listed unless of course they're out on both vehicles lol. Neither is rusted badly but.. you know, hedging my investment with a parts car haha :-) (nothing is better, ever than a parts car !)

if I didn't have access to your site.. I would not be able to do this. Thank you again SO MUCH. YOU ARE WELCOME !
You help regular people like me. I'm a home health nurse actually: help keep people home and out of those horrible nursing homes. I don't do it for the cash, that's for sure, so you help me a lot by being able to work on my vehicle. Before this I had only ever worked on the 3800 series GM engines. These pre-96 kicks are much so much more simple and the parts so much more cheap- but you are the missing part. so thank you for what you do for us all!

Your are so welcome, Josh and glad to help.

yes, the front and rear axles must be the  same ratio and if not same,  in 4wd the car will buck like mad  in real 4wd
and be a big danger to all and the same is true using tires that
are not the same circumference. (in 4wd) (2wd no problems)  "real 4wd means the front locking hubs are engaged and actually work (rare this old)"
see chart 2, here, link below:

https://fixkick.com/part-time-test.html

great the   mile marker test works agains ODOM, (or GPS)  very cool you did that , thanks.

fuel pressure on 8v is 100% altitude only device, and called FPR, fuel pressure reg.
key on and running pressure is are same 34-41 PSI (seen at the filter 6mm bango port this is input to fuel filter and if clogged filter pressure  goes to 60psi and less to the TBI. (where you check pressure matters, and is not easy ,not doing it at the banjo test port)
the car has no under hood test ports, at all. like 16v has.(if added to rail port, not seen  on any 8v)

at sea level here is my 8v.
the PSI does not change with throttle angle. like 16valves does.  mine was 38PSI. not going up hills huge.
[Image: FPR-8v.jpg]



Great a parts car !,  no better thing exists for sure suzuki;'s  next unborn child prices...  TB goes for $1200 and so does a mAF sensor on 16v.
hints.
on all g16's make sure the front 17mm crank/cog pulley is at 94ft/lbs (CW tight) never let it get loose. or  wrecks the crank, (TSB covers that)



RICH running gas sucking pig causes; (hope I get them all for you)!! WHY IS BELOW:
below:
The way this ECU works is that it loves to blow up CAP.'s.  rule#1 it not already RECAPPED, those caps love to fail,  and if black skinned tagged, as Rubicon, sure.
leak, crack,blow up, or go drive.  we put in JAPAN made CAPS rated at 105C and they work fantastic.
seen here:  https://fixkick.com/ECU/cap-source1.html

 
First is a bad Thermostat, if  not 180f hot or more the engine will never run right with any bad thermostat and they have life span 7 years(says STANT™
Then sensors,
The ECU like this has only few sensors that make spark work and fueling correct.
Rule2: is the ECU has no AI, it has no real savvy smarts at all and can only see dead sensors, now weak.
if the ECT sensor does not read 300ohms on 180f hot engine, but say reads 1000  it will run rich fuel, (or thermostat is bad and water is at 140f ops)
The next sensor is MAP if the hose leaks air the the MAP sees low vacuum and the map reads low and fuel goes rich. (the ECU just thinks your driving fast are are not doing that say you are parked in driveway)
O2 sensor , bad. (they are designed on purpose to fail safe, safe means 0vdc, failed. this prevents lean running engine and say not burning up valves but more important is not going lean and filling the world (hood) full of NOX gasses, nasty,  rich is way less nasty than NOX , NOX is acid rain and burned lungs.
next is IAT this is a super fine trim on the fueling, mostly a never fail sensor  like MAP, and runs cool so lasts unlike ECT (this old)
The next is CMP, cam sensor in the distributor if dead there will be no spark again.
If CMP goes dead the ECU sets a DTC (41/42 or both) code and cuts all fuel, so there will be no fire cause by NO SPARK.
and last and super common cause of rich.
LIMPHOME. (or  worse BACKUP)   we always look for DTC errors first due to bad limphome effects and for sure RICH running.

The ECU , if the CEL glows running, 99% that is limphome and runs super rich,  horrid rich can be. sinks of unburnd fuel. running and with dead cat, black cloud effect at end of tail pipe.
The Backup mode, makes the CEL lamp go dead, 100% of the time key on or running, this is a hidden 2nd ECU inside that is super super rich and bad.
This ECU is OBD1, and all codes are strictly  only SUzUki and is not a standard, like OBD2 is.(P0xxx) codes.
The 1996+ car would set DTC for super rich and tell you fuel trim is DEAD and MORE. not your car, this year.


The ECU checks its self as it boots if the main ECU brain is dead it then goes to BACKUP mode.  (rare but something to know once the CEL bulb works again.
top causes of dead CEL are, bad lamp, some bad guy removed it to hid DTC errors (super common), or is in backup mode.

RICH, (more facts...) trying to post them all for you.

fuel pressure  at 60PSI all the time (bad FPR) yah it will run rich as a piggy mine ran at 38 full time.
leaking TBI injector, (not you, you proved it is ok)  you are good here.
your fuel pressure is 40 and is perfect.  
as you can  see some kicks have 41 PSI FPR on a good new car, so if the O2 goes dead. it can go a lot richer,  (see how?)

is your car with 02 , 3 wire? sensor.  the BOSCH # for this car, is 15701-3 (3=3wire my code not bosch) the Bosch universal is 15726-3 (best price is this)!!!
O2 is complex buy, Fed/CALif and TBI or MPI versions (MPI=MFI) see here. you want only TBI !
You need, G16kC (the "C" ,means canvas top 2 door. TBI. (tricky no?) KV = van = 4door, no buy MPI. (4 injector engines)
The stores think both G16 engines are the same they are NOT. ( I also show all sensor colors used by all brands so one can make substitutions &easy save cash)

is your hood sticker with California words in the text there if not the car is fed and the nag switch is there, and if there as all are fed, the last owners drove car with CEL glowing for years not know what it is and burned the lamp out. best Idea is remove the nag switch first thing you do when found.

this thing (FED ONLY) plugs in to rear side of he cluster,  and just unplugs.  best is remove it, there is no need for it or any side effects at all.
https://fixkick.com/CEL/NAG-Lamp.html
[Image: miles1w.jpg]

DAY 2 I remove this, I do no like things to impede on the road failure diagnose, in the dark and driving on ice, 100miles from home, if you get my drift.

if this switch is active it blocks flash codes and is why I do not like it or crawling under the dash every 50,000 mile to reset this "legacy Joker" Leaded fuel JOKER.

[Image: MPI-cancel-switch.gif]




see words SZ that is the nag jack.  may be tab locked,so pinch it pull it. out. (locations vary for switch and back of speedo) but all plugs same,

[Image: 63AA0-912WDMT.jpg]

not seen on any California car ever. the NAG is FED only joker.

that is my rich running engine thesis, to you.  hope it saves you lots of cash and trouble and labor.

Cheers to you  !


PS the 8v is more simple and more easy to fix and diagnose. (most parts are cheaper, for sure than new cars but my key parts are not sold now for it )
2 hard parts to buy are Throttle  body, and new front wheel bearing hubs. (and some engine parts hard too.(inside)

 
it has no 3 extra injectors to clog or leak.
It has no $1000 MAF sensors, and endless bad clones sold for it.
It always makes  more power with vacuum leaks unlike ,16v goes lean and goes weak power.
This engine and ECU just wants to run no matter what.
the 8v  exhaust manifold does not crack as the 16v all do.
keep the 17mm bolt tight,
and run mag HV spark wire for hotter spark. (avoid carbon or silicon junk wires)


(1 view)"susuki fail safe"
LIMPHOME mode, runs no spark advance or nill,  and wastes tons of fuel.  this one line tells you, fix the Dead LAMP CEL.
avoid the LIMP, for sure, no matter what fix this first.
if the car drives mostly ok and stops ok (not skid or pulling) and does not leak fuel or brakefluid ,fix the DEAD CEL.

all the best to you and others !
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#7
you are the man! Without even mentioning it myself...you mentioning checking ohms to determine temperature etc and i stumbled across your "temp sensors" page as well as another suzuki forum that where someone with my same vehcile had a similar problem..it idles perfect at 800 and everyrhing like his..but it made sense to me.

My linear gauge for engine temperature never goes past the bottom slit near C. I thought at first because of the other lights being out that it could be a cluster or fuse but we have determined it is not. Plus when i get the car warmed up for sure it goes from below C to slightly above C.

not to mention last winter when i got the car before i did my.fixes to it..i noticed white sludge on the top of the oil dipstick and thought "oh god..head gasket" but it turns out the car wasnt getting to operating temperature in winter and the (old..since changed) oil was full of water and fuel that didnt evaporate off.

I thought to myself (assumed..sigh) that ill just check the thermostat after summer because maybe the PO was overheating so he either put a low temp (160..or none at all) thermostat in it. Point being tho thst i planned on addressing..and will need to address..thermostat and likely ECT before winter. All levels remain high and no leaks..50/50 mix isnt dirty or have bubbles in it. No overheating issues and radiator/pump is flowing water but i dont think its hitting opersting temperature or at least is "too cool" .. Which everyone ive bounced this off of says its no prohlem at all and surely better than too hot but comes with its own issues..

From what ive deduced reading..improper operating temperature can cause a rich condition as well. I checked the o2 sensor and its been replaced fairly recently: the pigtail on it was brand new looking and even scotch locked all nicely onto the connector with what looks like new zipties. Id guess its been changed within the last 3 years. Plus its not behaving like a bad o2 sensor would ..i just havr the white tip plugs and fuel smelling exhaust indicating rich condition.

I even read that if it never goes above 158 then it stays in warmup node and Never goes to closed loop which would make perfect sense of the cold conditions i have as well as the gauge and the winter prohlems as well as the fuel smelling exhaust..just everyrhing makes sense if there is too low a thermostat or none at all in there..or faulty ECT?

What im.guessing now..and.i need tools to.confirm..is that the ECT may have been bad before..it may have been overheating on PO so he (by the look of the blue gasket maker around thermostat..ugh) replaced thermostat and put in an o2 sensor trying to fix problem . what i think based on all of this is that he may have missed a faulty ECT causing the whole thing and then "fixed symptoms instead of disease" if you will by replacing thermostat with a lower rated one or none at all..which of course leads to further issues.

What im going to do FIRST THING so i can do what u have told me..is get myself a DMM and an IR thermometer. I can also check my cat with that and ..with ur manuals i can read ohms withour thermometer to see what the ECU is saying. 2 weeks ago..this would be rocket science to me but now i am reading and getting deep into your math for ohms to temperature and voltage read by ECU etc.. And my god man ur a genius on this car and a godsend to me.

Im getting in there this weekend to check ECU caps and ordering #18 GE bulb but i am.now at a point where i need some more tools to diagnose this right But thanks to you i have the knowledge and have a fundamental.understanding of the car itself which i could never repay you for.

Only one question (besides the update and other symptoms i didnt mention but once i made sense of what u were asking it clicked for me). What is OEM (or recommended) thermostat? Once i get in there and look ofc..when I looked it up i got conflicting info:on my 1993 8v tbi does it take the 180* or the 195* (I saw rated 192?) thermostat? also which gasket does it take? I read that auto parts stores will gige u both LOL is it The 1 mm or the 4-5mm rubber o ring?

Thanks to your help i am.going to save hours upon hours of labor and have myself a new tool set to work on this myself!  (dad told me.for every hour of labor saved you can buy 4 tools..rip to him I lost him too soon before he could teach me more and wished id listened more when younger.)

Im sharp but still need to be exposed to the material..so i thank you so much again or answering my directly and in detail while I also cross reference your manuals. 

I have the answers and am.on the right track i am sure of it. Im buying the tools this weekend and will update you again after i have performed the tests and/or replaced snything found faulty

P.S. it still has the ORIGINAL FUEL FILTER on it. New muffler..new shocks and struts all.on rear end and they never once replaced the fuel filter. How this car ran when i got it..ill never know. I am fixing that this weekend. Also i noticed that the EVAP CANISTER is bypassed and has a hose with a cap.on the end coming up beside it (im guessing to preserve the vacuum for the VSV? i havent read up on that YET but it almost seems like my a/c is bypassed and i need to look again to see if it is or not) i have a slight belt squeak on startup that isnt any bearings or pulleys..due to a seal.in power steering pump being broken and dripping ATF from p/s onto belt. Doesnt affect vehicle at all and im losing 1 reservoir every 6 months so im putting that one off until i have the parts car.

Also per your site and instructions i am changing multiple hoses- the return hose for the fuel pressure regulator is noticeably gritty and old..

I may have fibbed so only one more question- do i need fuel system depressurized to replace FUEL REGULATOR RETURN HOSE? I found instructions on how to from you and will be doing that while fixing fuel filter ofc)

Again i cannot thank yoy enough for all of the help. Im long winded and apologize for all of this text but I want to relay as much into as possible cuz it being internet etc.

At this point tho until i do the tests..relaying anymore info is pointless so I'll get in there and come back hopefully with good news but if i run into anything elae and cant find it on here then I'll ask for sure.
Reply
#8
(06-30-2020, 09:41 PM)z1joshmon Wrote: you are the man! Without even mentioning it myself...you mentioning checking ohms to determine temperature etc and i stumbled across your "temp sensors" page as well as another suzuki forum that where someone with my same vehcile had a similar problem..it idles perfect at 800 and everyrhing like his..but it made sense to me.

My linear gauge for engine temperature never goes past the bottom slit near C. I thought at first because of the other lights being out that it could be a cluster or fuse but we have determined it is not. Plus when i get the car warmed up for sure it goes from below C to slightly above C.

not to mention last winter when i got the car before i did my.fixes to it..i noticed white sludge on the top of the oil dipstick and thought "oh god..head gasket" but it turns out the car wasnt getting to operating temperature in winter and the (old..since changed) oil was full of water and fuel that didnt evaporate off. yes white sludge = never gets hot to burn off all water, so oil goes bad real fast not good that.

I thought to myself (assumed..sigh) that ill just check the thermostat after summer because maybe the PO was overheating so he either put a low temp (160..or none at all) thermostat in it. Point being tho thst i planned on addressing..and will need to address..thermostat and likely ECT before winter. All levels remain high and no leaks..50/50 mix isnt dirty or have bubbles in it. No overheating issues and radiator/pump is flowing water but i dont think its hitting opersting temperature or at least is "too cool" ..  lacking an IR thermal gun here is the test, all mech used for 100years,  the hand test, hot engine drove 10 to 20 miles until fully hot.,hood up, hand lays on top rad hose (g16 only) and hand flies off,  fast, ouch, bingo 180f + bingo.! good.


Which everyone (bah) ive bounced this off of says its no prohlem at all and surely better than too hot but comes with its own issues..
yah but if too cold the ECU runs in the WRONG MODE< rich and can get as low as 15mpg.  and all the carbon dumped everywhere ! and burned up cat as a door price.
180 to 195f is good, way below bad. (this is no CARB engine it is dumb EFI)
The ECU runs in many modes, cranking 1,  just started 2, cold running 3,  at 150f goes to warm running and more all are AFR and spark advanced tables, and more.
AFR=air fuel ratio, 3D MAPS inside ECU and no way ever to change that.  what will be , will be, inputs wrong the table maps are indexed WRONG.
GIGO, in all comptures, garbage in = garbage out. (hard logic)



From what ive deduced reading..improper operating temperature can cause a rich condition as well. I checked the o2 sensor and its been replaced fairly recently: the pigtail on it was brand new looking and even scotch locked all nicely onto the connector with what looks like new zipties.
good that baby can run.

Id guess its been changed within the last 3 years. Plus its not behaving like a bad o2 sensor would ..i just havr the white tip plugs and fuel smelling exhaust indicating rich condition. It can go 100,000 miles easy , 80k is spec on 8v but 100k if engine runs great, that long.

I even read that if it never goes above 158 then it stays in warmup node and Never goes to closed loop which would make perfect sense of the cold conditions i have as well as the gauge and the winter prohlems as well as the fuel smelling exhaust..just everyrhing makes sense if there is too low a thermostat or none at all in there..or faulty ECT?   (if the stat is wrong ETC good causes wrong ECU mode, The ECT is just thermometer, that is all it does, but at IAC closure at 150f the ECU sees that act
and goes to warm running mode and tries to see if 02 works now if does uses the O2 for fuel trim and does, at 14.7:1 AFR, closed loop.


What im.guessing now..and.i need tools to.confirm..is that the ECT may have been bad before..it may have been overheating on PO so he (by the look of the blue gasket maker around thermostat..ugh) replaced thermostat and put in an o2 sensor trying to fix problem . what i think based on all of this is that he may have missed a faulty ECT causing the whole thing and then "fixed symptoms instead of disease" if you will by replacing thermostat with a lower rated one or none at all..which of course leads to further issues. (you do know right any thermostat and ECT put in a pan of hot water from cold to hot on burner (stove) shows if it works right. easy easy test out of car. no tools but  thermometer) On car get engine hot, fully , hand on top rad hose flies off and DMM ohms on 2 ECT pins (conn pulled)reads 300ohms 300= 180f.
easy stuff here only DMM, if the ohms is wrong we find out why next.  just  knowning it reads wrong is every thing here. and is a "first order failure" !

What im going to do FIRST THING so i can do what u have told me..is get myself a DMM and an IR thermometer. I can also check my cat with that and ..with ur manuals i can read ohms with our thermometer to see what the ECU is saying.
2 weeks ago..this would be rocket science to me but now i am reading and getting deep into your math for ohms to temperature and voltage read by ECU etc.. And my god man ur a genius on this car and a godsend to me. The ECT IS only a resistor no magic no electronics at all just thermistor that is really a THERMOMETER.
Im not genius all EFI cars from 1988 to 2020 work like this , on topic;....nothing new under this SUn.

Im getting in there this weekend to check ECU caps and ordering #18 GE bulb but i am.now at a point where i need some more tools to diagnose this right But thanks to you i have the knowledge and have a fundamental.understanding of the car itself which i could never repay you for. You own me zero, I help anyone for free. Im retired now. 100% for 10 years.(early) I am glad to help and have no problem showing ways and means all ways to do the job, and some tricks too, like hands fly off above.


Only one question (besides the update and other symptoms i didnt mention but once i made sense of what u were asking it clicked for me). What is OEM (or recommended) thermostat? Once i get in there and look ofc..when I looked it up i got conflicting info:on my 1993 8v tbi does it take the 180* or the 195* (I saw rated 192?) thermostat? also which gasket does it take? I read that auto parts stores will gige u both LOL is it The 1 mm or the 4-5mm rubber o ring?

OH yes, 180 to 195 works, hotter even cools better, yes sounds strange but does. (air and water temps far from each other is more cooling(Carnot laws)
yes 92 to 95 has 2 intake manifolds one with old 1mm thermostat lip and one 4mm, the later uses a huge 5mm Oring, if  not there the stat floats and engine runs super illegal cold and is really  a hard failure here, the lip must  be seen and measured, first.  type frigid kick in search box fixkick.com  even a TSB covers this little horror.

Thanks to your help i am.going to save hours upon hours of labor and have myself a new tool set to work on this myself!  (dad told me.for every hour of labor saved you can buy 4 tools..rip to him I lost him too soon before he could teach me more and wished id listened more when younger.)
He is right tools are why cheaper that $100/hr labor that adds up fast.  in a shop.
trick 2: drain only little water out of RAD and the thermostat goes dry, and pull housing ,read stat rim, stamp 150f, and measure 4mm on lip. aluminum pit wall.


I'm sharp but still need to be exposed to the material..so i thank you so much again or answering my directly and in detail while I also cross reference your manuals. 

I have the answers and am.on the right track i am sure of it. Im buying the tools this weekend and will update you again after i have performed the tests and/or replaced snything found faulty

P.S. it still has the ORIGINAL FUEL FILTER on it. New muffler..new shocks and struts all.on rear end and they never once replaced the fuel filter. How this car ran when i got it..ill never know.
yes the ECU will run  with vast things busted, it does that but burns lots of fuel to do LIMP,  in 1996 les
I am fixing that this weekend. Also i noticed that the EVAP CANISTER is bypassed and has a hose with a cap.on the end coming up beside it (im guessing to preserve the vacuum for the VSV?
the Canister does have  a hose to nowhere, it is only vent hose to not let water get into the vent say fording a stream, in 4wd offoard,  alxe and trans vents do that too.
hose to nowhere,  but high.
the VSV only sucks are from the canister moving, driving, that way vacuum, at idle is not , weak.

make sure all VSV hose to all VSV on the plenum vacuum intake side are not missing or cracked,

i havent read up on that YET but it almost seems like my a/c is bypassed and i need to look again to see if it is or not) i have a slight belt squeak on startup that isnt any bearings or pulleys..due to a seal.in power steering pump being broken and dripping ATF from p/s onto belt. Doesnt affect vehicle at all and im losing 1 reservoir every 6 months so im putting that one off until i have the parts car. ( this makes since)

Also per your site and instructions i am changing multiple hoses- the return hose for the fuel pressure regulator is noticeably gritty and old..

I may have fibbed so only one more question- do i need fuel system depressurized to replace FUEL REGULATOR RETURN HOSE? (not not VACUUM ever)

only the fuel lines removing fuel line rear TB and TB front FPR removed it will blast fuel into your face is not. (some FPR do not leak at all key off and hold pressure or 5minutes or more,  not 1 hour but Id not wreck you eyes on my guess on max. nobody knows max hold , depends on FPR quality or even worn in better to seal better.
some valves close better with age.
its open running, and regulating at 38psi.




I found instructions on how to from you and will be doing that while fixing fuel filter ofc)
to remove fuel pressure start engine, pull FI fuse see engine slowly stall as the fuel burns off. and bingo your are safe. (from flying fuel breached lines)
not only that you learn how a dead fuel pump acts as it fails running, engine. fun no?

Again i cannot thank yoy enough for all of the help. Im long winded and apologize for all of this text but I want to relay as much into as possible cuz it being internet etc.

hey man it is car and is old not a toaster.  cars are very complex and ECU more.

At this point tho until i do the tests..relaying anymore info is pointless so I'll get in there and come back hopefully with good news but if i run into anything elae and cant find it on here then I'll ask for sure.
Hello Partner.
your brain is wired like mine (EX NAVY  GUY , trust NOTHING! and live:", I have the same thought processes, and what you said makes sense. (all)
cheers to you and happy trails !

I'd make sure the thermostat is stamped 180f +up.
and that lip.
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#9
here is my old Frigid page
https://fixkick.com/Cooling-engine/Frigi...r-cab.html


see that, see that LIP?
if you send me your VIN number to my PM box, Private mail above) but see below. first.
i will lockup you vin in the susuki books for if it has 4mm or 1mm lip manifold
or forget the vin and read them here, forget after 13 years,. i have the PDF here showing VIN ranges.

https://fixkick.com/All-Pdfs/TSB/16v-STAT-bung1.pdf


P year is 1993
N=1992,
warning some cars now this old have engine swaps so I LOOK with eyes, only' in the stat PIT.
http://www.fixkick.com
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