Another 1.6 16 valve timing

[Ucmasta]

1996 Geo Tracker 1.6 16 valve 190K mile 4sp auto, my best rig ever!

So a simple replace the distributor oring has turned into one of the biggest repair headaches ever! more then the front wheel bearing socket.

I had removed the valve cover and the dizzy to replace both seals, once reinstalled and I tried starting, key word tried...well it didnt, no miss fire or rough idle just cranking. So, I timed the crank and cam, I have the radiator shroud and timing cover off for easier repairs, also i have marked the crank tooth. Once aligned i checked my dizzy, and found my timing was bit off. I corrected and tried again, but still no start. I tried a few more times to correct it and retimed and retimed. I then plug the OBD2 into it and found a "P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Low Input (Bank 1 or single sensor) I am using a Innova code reader, so i cleared the code, but still no start. I tried everything for timing from, timing on #4TDC to compression testing, used alot of info off this website(which is GREAT BTW!) Myself and the other field tech have worked for a few days trying to get this going but nope.

I am thinking the dizzy is fried or the ECU is scrambled. This would be a terrible way for my tracker to go Any thoughts?

An Advance Thanks!

   
   
   

[gorkyb]

Hello Ucmasta, I would try starting it with starting fluid, follow instructions on fixkick website under the no start page, it if starts with test fuel then it's not a timing issue.

Do you have a timing light? (They're $20 in harbor freight) while cranking the light will tell you whether you are close to where your ignition timing should be. This is how I found out I was timing my ignition backwards last year.

I've gotten p0340 but never p0342 yet. Looking at the picture of you camshaft gear I see it's not pointing exactly at 6 o'clock but I assume you had it pointing at 6 o'clock when you dropped the distributor to point at 1 o'clock

[Ucmasta]

Hey gorkyb,

I can smell the fuel and see it on the plugs which were all wet so I let them dry out, this is my Daily Driver, but will try it.

Ya the pic was just a bad pic of CAM. One thing is my check engine light is comes on right away even after battery was disconnected over night. Its never done that before. Cant get the p0342 code to come up again.

The RAG tells of a way to check the voltage, on the ignition circuit, at ECU plug while someone turn engine over.

[fixkick]

i think the ECU is fine, and all else, its timed wrong, or you forgot to put back all the wires as they where.
what was the job, JUST the dizzy o-ring?
did you first take off the dizzy cap and then set the crank to DTC with rotor , pointing to #1 cap spark wire? if not may be the other guy timed it any of the other 3 ways.
if you did do that, first, then we must start from scratch.
why is the dizzy dust shield marked wrong.
did you accidentally drop off this ground/? clip
http://www.fixkick.com/my96-16v/dizzy-gnd1w.jpg
(that clip ground very important 1996 engine ground.)
did you re-seat the dizzy side primary connector? to be sure its fully seated, (342 is bad connections to dizzy or dizzy case not grounded.) and no spark , did you test for spark>?
the dizzy has 13 tooth gear, can be inserted 12 wrong ways.
in the photos , is the crank gear set to TDC mark at 12PM? or pulley to the marks, some pulleys stip out and its best to check timing before a take down to witness this before hand.

CEL comes on when? key on is NORMAL that is the self test. and since it dont run, that is why the cel is on, its in continuous selft test. the engine must go past about 400 rpm for the
ECU to think ,hey ,im running (way faster that starter speeds) and turn off the CEL.
if you crank the motor with the dizzy unpugged 34x codes will happen. it self clears fast, as soon as the cmp wakes up.

1: got spark?
2: does timing light show spark at #1 landing on near 0degr, crank pulley.
3: the voltmeter at pin 3 dizzy plug white wire will pulse. as cranked, but why do that , the ECU monitors that all the time, and 34x if it fails for 1 in 10 pulse,

here is my photo with no (low) parallax error,
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16-rea...zy1c1w.jpg

there are 4 way to time it. all 4 ways run, despite harness fitting issues.
this photo off my 96 shows how the rotor alignes to #1
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16-rea...zy1a1w.jpg

and here
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16-rea...b1w%29.jpg

on some sidekicks, i think due to alternator seize up and owner set belt tighter every day, to stop the squeal, (theory) they wreck the crank pulley rubber damper bond and the pulley slips inside
destroying the timing, that is why i check that very carefully first. by checking with a timing light before pulling any DIZZY,
the cure is here. (discovery)
if crank is at pulley TDC 0 degr., is the lifter lash loose on #1 cylinder, no ? oops...... find out why not.

this is the only TDC that matters, 8v , has same pump marks

http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/16v-crank-cog1.jpg
the cog on a 16v looks just like this. 1996 up.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/snouts/html/image_1.html

the first test is spark got spark.?
NO?
then cap off, rotor off. and connect a spark plug (some way) to that hidden coil tower in your photo, spark plug grounded to engine, got spark now?
even timed totally wrong,(cam/dizzy) the tower HV tests passes the spark test. A BIG CLUE.

342, is not in the FSM list. odd that.
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/96DTC-ECU1.jpg

but its CMP ,im sure. it is common for books to miss codes. too common. seen it vast times.

good job that, cranking with OBD2 connected to see if you have errors, does the scan tool show 300rpm or near cranking, that too is a good sign that all engine RPM sensors are working.


that cam cog shows #1 off about 10 degrees or more. is the pulley on 0 or 10? degr?
and is retarded 10. or more. why?

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is the rotor installed wrong, it only fits 1 way. and if removed and put on wrong, it will never work.
only this way works

http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-rotor-IGN1.JPG


the flats are not the same size.

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if all else fails.
say spark is good at the tower rod.
and rotor is on right. (btw your rotor looks ok in photo , but can see crank marks)
and spark timing is way off. to #1 cranking, the timing light dont lie, at crank or running. it just works.
and at wits end.
check that piston is at true TDC, using a tool or some method. true TDC of piston.
then see of your pulley is at 0, if not the pulley is wrong.
I have one 20 degrees off in my attic box of junk.

[Ucmasta]

ok, spent some time after work today. tore down everything. pulled the crank pully off to verify alignment. removed valve cover to check lobes, ect ect. so after aligning to tdc #1 (crank mark up, cam mark at 6pm) i put the dizzy on with rotor in 3 pm position to slip into 1pm position (#1 plug being to the right of dizzy hold down bolt).

So started up, same thing just cranks, tried ether nothing. moved dizzy fully forward in the hold down slot, nothing. move the dizzy all the way back and and it kicked over. so just wanting to try something, i removed the hold down bolt and turned it back a quarter turn and it STARTED. but this isnt right cant even fit the bolt in the dizzy. will try again come monday.

at this point in time the dizzy marks, some done prior to me, have very little standing.

   
   
   
   
   

[fixkick]

all above photos are correct. set up.
you have , no spark, or timed wrong.
if those wires are like below , its correct.
1 front, 2,3,4(rear) cylinder order
you will have spark at #1 using a test spark plug.
place the test spark plug at the end of front #1 spark wire (shell grounded), crank engine, got spark?, my guess is no.
see Scotty here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...8Fzg#t=105 (He uses very good ground, for your safety)
test passes?, then use the strobe light now to time the DIZZY,.

Test Fails ,then:
take that whole wire #1 off dizzy cap, then remove cap, remove rotor. (leave the test spark plug in place, per above)
wire the rear end of the spark wire 1, to the High voltage coil rod seen the with the brass tip , this is the coil output. (i use a crocodile clip. ill comment below on this. )
got spark now?, using same, #1 test spark plug?
this test setup, last, proves the coil works, ECU works, CMP works, all ok. (if good means your timing is wrong, not dead spark)

my text art:
engine block ground>>>spark plug>>>spark HV wire?>> end of HV wire, wrap tinfoil (no hats) on to this end wire and use a clip to hold end of wire the COIL HV tower tip.

btw this engine starts and runs with the CKP sensor missing. (DTC errors sure)
but runs, so only the DIZZY CMP and coil and ECU make spark.
this is the path

CMP >>> ECU >>dizzy ignitor >>> COIL > rotor >>>cap > hv wires>> spark plug >>>ground


off my no spark page. (dead coil)
pin 5 orange is the ignitor driver pin


and next my dizzy schematic 2 (see bottom)

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ive never scoped the orange pin on my 16v engine.
but the 8v looks like this.
the 16v might have the same pull down internal transistor.?