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'92 16v sidekick
#1
big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
Reply
#2
(06-26-2020, 07:43 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote: big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
are you going to run the engine 300,000 miles on a 60k mile cam timing belt.? sorry had to ask... common failure this. and worse next.
is the front crank pulley 17mm headed bolt loose?  94ft/lbs only is spec.

compression is 180PSI not 80.  do a compression test on any engine, that will not run or has low power. first ( do it with the throttle blocked open)
at sea level not DENVER.

KEY ON< CEL lamp must glow does it.
and then with the DLC diagnostic jumper inserted (paperclip) DTC code 12 blinks out, (means good)  all others bad, or worse.  
worse CEL dead.
worse CEL can not blink but stuck on.  (turn off CEL nag switch if car is FED and not Calif, marked on hood sticKer)


see my sneak a peak/

https://fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html

or just do compression test on front #1 , a 15 min job, that 1 plug out, block throttle open if 80PSI not 180, do them all if #1 fails.  easy logic that.

I do not think going backwards is it, but if it cause wiring to break loose , engine harness or connectors sure.

The ECU can go to failsafe (limphome mode) or worse BACKUPMODE.
all those suck fuel like mad and wants to flood the engine
use the DLC get the ECU flashing codes,  do that first , if the CEL lamp is dead  that is a bad lamp or stuck in HORRID BACKUPMODE(means bad ecu)

a bad ECU is most times just needs new CAPS.  (they love to fail on this car if black caps and marked RUBICON)

compression steps and expected results are correct.
https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#3
(06-26-2020, 10:41 PM)fixkick Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 07:43 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote: big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
are you going to run the engine 300,000 miles on a 60k mile cam timing belt.? sorry had to ask... common failure this. and worse next.
is the front crank pulley 17mm headed bolt loose?  94ft/lbs only is spec.

compression is 180PSI not 80.  do a compression test on any engine, that will not run or has low power. first ( do it with the throttle blocked open)
at sea level not DENVER.

KEY ON< CEL lamp must glow does it.
and then with the DLC diagnostic jumper inserted (paperclip) DTC code 12 blinks out, (means good)  all others bad, or worse.  
worse CEL dead.
worse CEL can not blink but stuck on.  (turn off CEL nag switch if car is FED and not Calif, marked on hood sticKer)


see my sneak a peak/

https://fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html

or just do compression test on front #1 , a 15 min job, that 1 plug out, block throttle open if 80PSI not 180, do them all if #1 fails.  easy logic that.

I do not think going backwards is it, but if it cause wiring to break loose , engine harness or connectors sure.

The ECU can go to failsafe (limphome mode) or worse BACKUPMODE.
all those suck fuel like mad and wants to flood the engine
use the DLC get the ECU flashing codes,  do that first , if the CEL lamp is dead  that is a bad lamp or stuck in HORRID BACKUPMODE(means bad ecu)

a bad ECU is most times just needs new CAPS.  (they love to fail on this car if black caps and marked RUBICON)

compression steps and expected results are correct.
https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html
Reply
#4
(07-06-2020, 09:22 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 10:41 PM)fixkick Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 07:43 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote: big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
are you going to run the engine 300,000 miles on a 60k mile cam timing belt.? sorry had to ask... common failure this. and worse next.
is the front crank pulley 17mm headed bolt loose?  94ft/lbs only is spec.

compression is 180PSI not 80.  do a compression test on any engine, that will not run or has low power. first ( do it with the throttle blocked open)
at sea level not DENVER.

KEY ON< CEL lamp must glow does it.
and then with the DLC diagnostic jumper inserted (paperclip) DTC code 12 blinks out, (means good)  all others bad, or worse.  
worse CEL dead.
worse CEL can not blink but stuck on.  (turn off CEL nag switch if car is FED and not Calif, marked on hood sticKer)


see my sneak a peak/

https://fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html

or just do compression test on front #1 , a 15 min job, that 1 plug out, block throttle open if 80PSI not 180, do them all if #1 fails.  easy logic that.

I do not think going backwards is it, but if it cause wiring to break loose , engine harness or connectors sure.

The ECU can go to failsafe (limphome mode) or worse BACKUPMODE.
all those suck fuel like mad and wants to flood the engine
use the DLC get the ECU flashing codes,  do that first , if the CEL lamp is dead  that is a bad lamp or stuck in HORRID BACKUPMODE(means bad ecu)

a bad ECU is most times just needs new CAPS.  (they love to fail on this car if black caps and marked RUBICON)

compression steps and expected results are correct.
https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html

         So..getting into the TPS...DTC=22,45....here's the mystery: Backprobing the blue/w  wire from TPS , I get 5 volts, but no voltage at any time from the Gray/red wire, which I understand is the 5v reference voltage.  If I unplug that group from the ECU, B6 pin on ECU has 9 volts, but plug it in and no voltage.  Checked continuity from ECU yellow plug to TPS, that checked OK. HOW can there be 5 volt to the blue wire?
   
Reply
#5
(07-06-2020, 09:28 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote:
(07-06-2020, 09:22 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 10:41 PM)fixkick Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 07:43 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote: big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
are you going to run the engine 300,000 miles on a 60k mile cam timing belt.? sorry had to ask... common failure this. and worse next.
is the front crank pulley 17mm headed bolt loose?  94ft/lbs only is spec.

compression is 180PSI not 80.  do a compression test on any engine, that will not run or has low power. first ( do it with the throttle blocked open)
at sea level not DENVER.

KEY ON< CEL lamp must glow does it.
and then with the DLC diagnostic jumper inserted (paperclip) DTC code 12 blinks out, (means good)  all others bad, or worse.  
worse CEL dead.
worse CEL can not blink but stuck on.  (turn off CEL nag switch if car is FED and not Calif, marked on hood sticKer)


see my sneak a peak/

https://fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html

or just do compression test on front #1 , a 15 min job, that 1 plug out, block throttle open if 80PSI not 180, do them all if #1 fails.  easy logic that.

I do not think going backwards is it, but if it cause wiring to break loose , engine harness or connectors sure.

The ECU can go to failsafe (limphome mode) or worse BACKUPMODE.
all those suck fuel like mad and wants to flood the engine
use the DLC get the ECU flashing codes,  do that first , if the CEL lamp is dead  that is a bad lamp or stuck in HORRID BACKUPMODE(means bad ecu)

a bad ECU is most times just needs new CAPS.  (they love to fail on this car if black caps and marked RUBICON)

compression steps and expected results are correct.
https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html

         So..getting into the TPS...DTC=22,45....here's the mystery: Backprobing the blue/w  wire from TPS , I get 5 volts, but no voltage at any time from the Gray/red wire, which I understand is the 5v reference voltage.  If I unplug that group from the ECU, B6 pin on ECU has 9 volts, but plug it in and no voltage.  Checked continuity from ECU yellow plug to TPS, that checked OK. HOW can there be 5 volt to the blue wire?
   
both are hard failures. ECU sees those,

22 means TP pin output is dead, 1vdc is normal at key on or idle. (a.k.a. throttle angle pin)
5vdc pin at TPS is power, and is good.
says the TPS is broken, cracked inside or wiper for TP pin a wreck inside, (all are bad TPS) but...

unplug that group means?  what, at the ECU , that done will cause ECU go to nuts. and is invalid test.

the ECU runs on 12vdc,
the ECU inside has two +vdc power supply regulators ( 12v to 5v)one for the logic inside 5v and one for that runs sensors out side the ECU,
TPS is one such sensor the 5vdc pin on the TPS is just power pure raw, 4.75 to 5.25v is spec.
and that works. here.
what does not work is your TPS,. it is bad. or  this.

TP pin is called throttle angle ,  1v to about  3v range. 3v is WOT, or even 4v. at WOT,
the TP pin can fail only 3 ways, (4th is 5vdc dead and is not)
1: TPS bad.
2: the TPS was installed and the index pins not aligned. at that time, making it dead. (tps mech, flloats inside doing nothing)
3: TP pin is shorted to ground. or the wire sure.

the TPS has a ground pin too, and if is cut open TP  angle pin, goes to 5v and DTC 21 happens not 22.

dtc 45 is the tps idle pin stuck at 0v, and is really a bad TPS. (or 5vdc dead and is not) no way in hell both wires are grounded out , TP and idle switch but , index failure again sure.
if you remove the TPS and the inside index, spinner is shattered yah, that is it. too.

if the TPS is bad both can fail. 22 and 45.  what to  do is bench test the TPS
Testing 1,2,3,
or on car advance the throttle key on engine off and see TP pin voltage move from 1v to 3v or 4vdc, if not the TPS is bad, or the index pins set wrong (as in mounted wrong installed)

the TPS is only a passive variable 5kohm resistor, no electronics inside. no transistors, just carbon film and gold sliders.
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#6
(07-06-2020, 10:10 AM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-06-2020, 09:28 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote:
(07-06-2020, 09:22 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 10:41 PM)fixkick Wrote:
(06-26-2020, 07:43 AM)danstrayer2 Wrote: big problem, please help if you can.     Last night I backed up on gravel road for 300 feet, at high speed, pulled in and parked. This morning this happened:
   Good start, all sounded well and normal as it has been for a year:  in less than 2 minutes, extremely rough, only run (barely) at certain throttle openings, eventually dies completely, heavy fuel usage. No restart.  Let sit for 20 minutes, good start, in 45 seconds goes to extremely rough, then no run. Will run at high RPM, with some occasional misfire.
   Here is what has been done:   
 removed cat from exhaust system.  Same.
    Fuel volume from rail= very good. Fuel pressure in rail just under 40 psi. Return fuel line OK. Tank pressure relieved.
    Rail leak-down test=OK, holds 35 lbs for 10 minutes, (very slight drip at my fittings).
    Air cleaner removed.
 here's the killer: Vacuum test about 10-12 inches hg.   Plugs very sooty.  It's lke fuel is justbeing dumped, but injectors don't leak, even if one did, all plugs are sooty. 4 injectors did not fail at one moment.
 I saw the FSM on exhaust blockage, removed exhaust manifold completely . Problem/symptoms remain.
Could this be valve timing as in slipped belt?
MAF is fine. EGR is OK.  It started when I backed up, WOT...coincidence?
   I am  stumped.  It runs really well just like always....then 1-2 minutes just deteriorates to will not run. What can it be?
are you going to run the engine 300,000 miles on a 60k mile cam timing belt.? sorry had to ask... common failure this. and worse next.
is the front crank pulley 17mm headed bolt loose?  94ft/lbs only is spec.

compression is 180PSI not 80.  do a compression test on any engine, that will not run or has low power. first ( do it with the throttle blocked open)
at sea level not DENVER.

KEY ON< CEL lamp must glow does it.
and then with the DLC diagnostic jumper inserted (paperclip) DTC code 12 blinks out, (means good)  all others bad, or worse.  
worse CEL dead.
worse CEL can not blink but stuck on.  (turn off CEL nag switch if car is FED and not Calif, marked on hood sticKer)


see my sneak a peak/

https://fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html

or just do compression test on front #1 , a 15 min job, that 1 plug out, block throttle open if 80PSI not 180, do them all if #1 fails.  easy logic that.

I do not think going backwards is it, but if it cause wiring to break loose , engine harness or connectors sure.

The ECU can go to failsafe (limphome mode) or worse BACKUPMODE.
all those suck fuel like mad and wants to flood the engine
use the DLC get the ECU flashing codes,  do that first , if the CEL lamp is dead  that is a bad lamp or stuck in HORRID BACKUPMODE(means bad ecu)

a bad ECU is most times just needs new CAPS.  (they love to fail on this car if black caps and marked RUBICON)

compression steps and expected results are correct.
https://fixkick.com/compressiontest.html

         So..getting into the TPS...DTC=22,45....here's the mystery: Backprobing the blue/w  wire from TPS , I get 5 volts, but no voltage at any time from the Gray/red wire, which I understand is the 5v reference voltage.  If I unplug that group from the ECU, B6 pin on ECU has 9 volts, but plug it in and no voltage.  Checked continuity from ECU yellow plug to TPS, that checked OK. HOW can there be 5 volt to the blue wire?
   
both are hard failures. ECU sees those,

22 means TP pin output is dead, 1vdc is normal at key on or idle. (a.k.a. throttle angle pin)
5vdc pin at TPS is power, and is good.
says the TPS is broken, cracked inside or wiper for TP pin a wreck inside, (all are bad TPS) but...

unplug that group means?  what, at the ECU , that done will cause ECU go to nuts. and is invalid test.

the ECU runs on 12vdc,
the ECU inside has two +vdc power supply regulators ( 12v to 5v)one for the logic inside 5v and one for that runs sensors out side the ECU,
TPS is one such sensor the 5vdc pin on the TPS is just power pure raw, 4.75 to 5.25v is spec.
and that works. here.
what does not work is your TPS,. it is bad. or  this.

TP pin is called throttle angle ,  1v to about  3v range. 3v is WOT, or even 4v. at WOT,
the TP pin can fail only 3 ways, (4th is 5vdc dead and is not)
1: TPS bad.
2: the TPS was installed and the index pins not aligned. at that time, making it dead. (tps mech, flloats inside doing nothing)
3: TP pin is shorted to ground. or the wire sure.

the TPS has a ground pin too, and if is cut open TP  angle pin, goes to 5v and DTC 21 happens not 22.

dtc 45 is the tps idle pin stuck at 0v, and is really a bad TPS. (or 5vdc dead and is not) no way in hell both wires are grounded out , TP and idle switch but , index failure again sure.
if you remove the TPS and the inside index, spinner is shattered yah, that is it. too.

if the TPS is bad both can fail. 22 and 45.  what to  do is bench test the TPS
Testing 1,2,3,
or on car advance the throttle key on engine off and see TP pin voltage move from 1v to 3v or 4vdc, if not the TPS is bad, or the index pins set wrong (as in mounted wrong installed)

the TPS is only a passive variable 5kohm resistor, no electronics inside. no transistors, just carbon film and gold sliders.
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#7
        Replaced TPS. No start. Gray/red wire, top position, dead.
 
 Got into the ECU.  Pin B6, which feeds 5v to TPS (Gray/red wire) , .25 volts. Not good.
  Despite advice from fixkick, here's what I did:   (I hot wired ECU,........ I had nothing to lose):
Traced pin B6 back to its source, which is apparently a regulated voltage source, on its own board, mounted vertically on main board.  5 volts to B6 circuit absent there also.
  Looking at this from the end of the ECU which is AWAY from the connectors, this small board has 9 soldered connections on bottom, 4 on the left, 5 on the right.
I found 5 volts source at #1 on left, see images. Connected that to 2 & 3 of the 5 on the right with small wire.. DTC gone, CEL not on, runs like new.


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