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1991 Vitara G16A frigid
#1
Hello,

Da patient:
 - 1991 Vitara MT, 2 door, G16a, 4wd.
- 242000km / 150 000 miles
 - Plate in engine compartment.
  - TYPE: ETA01V
  - LAK625K17 (SWE, car has actually been sold in neighbor country FIN)
 - No AC

I bought a Vitara as secondary / hobby car a few months back. History is some what fussy with the maintenance part, especially as the previous owner has only used it on hunting trips for last 5 years.. ie have not cared about small problems like engine running cold. Before him the car has been owned 10 years by some safari company and before that some years by another private owner. Maintenance records lost.

I started doing some maintenance as the car miss fired now and then at summer temps when idling normally at 800rpm. Back then the temp gauge was showing quite low, but I dont trust that bastard a lot.. mostly it seems to show if you have any coolant flow or not.

Due to very minor missfire I have changed:
 - intake filter
 - spark plugs
 - checked resistance of plug cables
 - checked the rotating thingy that gives sparks is ok (it has been changed in near future).


Also previous owner has changed timing belt + alternator as he had no idea how old the belt was. (Car accelerates ok. I drove it 135km/h (83mph) on highway, so I guess the belt has not skipped. Car was still accelerating but I did not want to push too much over speedlimit, any how about hit the factory promise).

On summer temps it was "hunting for idle" 3 minutes after cold start. First it ran about 2000rpm, then started hunting between 900-1500rpm and after doing that for 5 minutes or so  it settled for 800rpm idle. (Outside temp was around 26C (79F)).

Now as its cold outside (5C (45F))  car lost idle.. its runs around 1500-1600rpm when "warm". So I replaced thermostat. I read the bulleting (TSB) about changed stat, ordered it with know car age (dealer could not check with VIN). Got the newer STAT and found out it to be new model, went back to shop to change it to the older style STAT without rubber o-ring, it got paper gasket etc, seemed to fit perfectly.

If I can trust the temp gauge at all, temps rose a few degrees. Normal idle is still lost, now between 1300-1600rpm. MPG got better (18MPG -> 30MPG, 62 miles test drive, 90 % of the time 50-60mph). New O2 sensor arrived, I changed it --> No difference.

I have read your fixit pages a bit. Mainly I am interested in following.

"8. The clutch fan is seized and and over cools the radiator at all times,  it must free wheel, that fan ,when it is cold outside."

How well does it need to freewheel. If I give very hard push to the fan, it will rotate a few revolutions and stop. Ie there definitely is some friction there.

While driving if I demand max power the blower (heating on) instantly blows warmer air.. and when load goes down so goes the temp.

I did not get original suzuki STAT as there was none in the country, would need to wait. Don't remember who has made the STAT, but I do not think it matters, most of the spares seems to be different brand than what you got in USA. Would like to know if the fan clutch is to blame, before going to order the suzuki STAT.

After 20 miles trip (14 miles of highway, rest suburban traffic) the thermostat housing burns fingers about immediately. You can touch the rubber hose coming out of it for a some time, also it is rigid. Radiator top is very hot to touch, cant touch long. (Thats best I can do until I figure out IR gun +

So I think there are at least 2 issues on my car.
1) Temp regulation is not working, runs too cold.
  - Most probably also causes idle being lost, as in summer it did get normal idle after warming up.
  - Also on very light acceleration pressing at 2500rpm its easy to get the engine jumpy (it doesnt know whether to cut of fuel or feed it)
2) There is definitely something wrong with ECU sensor stuff. As between really cold engine and warmed up it hunts for idle.
 - full cold start. RPM goes up to 3000, after a while comes to 2500.
 - shortly after it hunts 900-1500
 - (if you get it fully warm) 800rpm idle, if not like now in cold weather 1300-1600rpm idle depending on engine temp.

My immediate concern is to get the heat up, idle to < 1000rpm, as that's here the regulation for yearly inspection and its emission test. It must be taken at idle speeds.

Other stuff:
 - coolant looks quite ok, its green and meter says it will freeze in -37C (-34-35F). (Bit less than my Auris hybrid's factory setup which can take -40C/-40F)
   - I am sure that the car has not been running with only, except if there has been some emergency. Our climate is somewhat like Alaska.

"The 1.6L does not do not have this weird temperature effect (at pump housing) but if the ISC/IAC coolant path is blocked, Idle speeds can/will be stratospheric.  3000 RPM?"
    ^ Is there some easy way to open and check ISC/IAC path or is only way flushing.. ie if I drain the system I want to be sure its not blocked.

Thanks in advance. And very much thanks for making and gathering all that info in fixkick.. have been reading it on several weeks. Smile

Sry for rally English.. Wink
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#2
Update:

If I drive about constant 50-55mph (80-90kmh) and try to up cabin temp, engine temp gauge starts falling. Ie cooling is too much (or the new STAT is b$).

Anyhow... I checked some local prices for my fan clutch/fan options.
- New fan clutch is around 50-60€ + 5-15€ for postage
- New electric fan 35-40cm ( 13.7-15.7" ) fan is around 25-40€ (CFM is about same).
* Need to make some DIY patent to fit it, but thats ok.

I might do some off-road driving, but I do not plan to cross any rivers or waterways, nor go to any really hard places as I have no winch, only 15" AT tyres etc.. So would electric FAN be ok instead of replacing the fan clutch?

As thermostat controlled FAN would also prevent over cooling, but it would be cheaper alternative to some general clutch.. that is supposed to be as the original suzuki, but there is no way to know if it actually is. At least I feel that finding out good thermostat threshold for the electric fan would be safer bet than "some unknown" fan clutch.
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#3
(10-09-2019, 07:38 AM)jwunsch Wrote: Update:

If I drive about constant 50-55mph (80-90kmh) and try to up cabin temp, engine temp gauge starts falling. Ie cooling is too much (or the new STAT is b$).

Anyhow... I checked some local prices for my fan clutch/fan options.
- New fan clutch is around 50-60€ + 5-15€ for postage
- New electric fan 35-40cm ( 13.7-15.7" ) fan is around 25-40€ (CFM is about same).
 * Need to make some DIY patent to fit it, but thats ok.

I might do some off-road driving, but I do not plan to cross any rivers or waterways, nor go to any really hard places as I have no winch, only 15" AT tyres etc.. So would electric FAN be ok instead of replacing the fan clutch?

As thermostat controlled FAN would also prevent over cooling, but it would be cheaper alternative to some general clutch.. that is supposed to be as the original suzuki, but there is no way to know if it actually is. At least I feel that finding out good thermostat threshold for the electric fan would be safer bet than "some unknown" fan clutch.

that 91 thermostat lip is 1mm not for 4mm so the gasket works only and will not float the stat and will just work at 180f , if stamped, 180f on lip rim.
the engine coolant must not drop it temp with blower in cab on, or the stat is bad (no way) and or the fan is locked up.
the fan must not be engaged , on cold days, (unless parked for 1hour idling)  the fan can over cool the RAD that is for sure.
if no stop lights where you live remove the clutch fan, run no fan at all.
see if car runs ok that way, (carefully) if yes, rig up an electric fan.
here is all I know on the clutch
https://fixkick.com/overheating.html#clutch

even suz words for testing the bugger.

cheers to you and good luck with kick car.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#4
(10-13-2019, 08:17 AM)fixkick Wrote: that 91 thermostat lip is 1mm not for 4mm so the gasket works only and will not float the stat and will just work at 180f , if stamped, 180f on lip rim.
the engine coolant must not drop it temp with blower in cab on, or the stat is bad (no way) and or the fan is locked up.
the fan must not be engaged , on cold days, (unless parked for 1hour idling)  the fan can over cool the RAD that is for sure.
if no stop lights where you live remove the clutch fan, run no fan at all.
see if car runs ok that way, (carefully) if yes, rig up an electric fan.
here is all I know on the clutch
https://fixkick.com/overheating.html#clutch

even suz words for testing the bugger.

cheers to you and good luck with kick car.

Thanks for your reply. Sadly I live near our capital "city" (630k pop), so there are some stop lights and also traffic stalls on rush hour, so I will keep the fan there, but go today with some zipties and cardboard to figure out how much to block the radiator.

Yeah I checked and the first STAT was for 4mm lip, I went to change it on the parts dealer 15 minutes before closing time to get correct one with 1mm lip.

Your reply gives me more confidence that its is the fan clutch. (The fan runs always even now that at 4C (39F)). Also when engine stopped and cold if I give full force push for the fan it only rotates 1-2 revolutions, so the clutch is always sticking.

About electric fan replacement. The set I can get here is fan + stat controller, the stat comes with T-connector to water hose. What is your installing recommendations.

There are 2 STATs available, 92C (197F) and 95C (203F). This is the fan ON temperature point.
 - Which one you recommend?
 - Which hose should I plug it on the G16a's RAD. Ie the one that returns hot water from STAT housing, or the lower hose that feeds colder water to engine ?

I am some what afraid that 197 or 203F for the lower (colder water) is too high for fan to turn on and might damage my engine? The instructions on that electric fan package recommends connecting it to the lower hose, but I would like to hear your opinion.
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#5
Ok. Definitely FAN clutch, blocked 2/3 of rad and in 0-50mph temp gauge stays over C and less than 1/2. 60-65mph raised temps to 1/2 of the temp gauge range and I slowed down all ok.

Car was parked 45 minutes at my parents house and I drove back to home (max 50mph), tmp gauge between C and 1/3 max, CEL light on.

Did not find anything alarming visually inspecting (ie.. exhaust is not glowin red etc). Car runs just as before CEL light. Will check the codes today after dinner, guessing it got bit too hot on some sensor or something. Gotta take a piece of the cardboard away.

At red lights etc stops during town traffic temps go down a bit, but newer so down that it would start idling over 1000rpm which is the max they allow in emission test here in yearly inspection.

Oh yeah.. also found out ISC is malfunctioning or död, will hold about 800rpm normally, but when I put high beams, blower full etc it drops below.
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#6
yeah, the fan sensor needs to be close to the thermostat outlet hose point.
the 50% AF boils as 260F,
197 and 203f are so close it really does not matter. (but yes, if the main thermostat is 180F and not the 195F option then either works but not the hotter, thermostat (150f)
the 203 seems best.
most new cars in USA have 200F thermostats. and 203f sensor above is way too close for new cars, how odd they dont have more choices,. Im curious.

why drive with CEL lamp on,? its begging you to use the DLC Diagnostic jumper clip?
yes your ISC is dead, clean it.
the 1000RPM hot engine is wrong but of the fan clutch fails on a very cold day the thermostat would close and if super cold the bad fan will cause the Rad temps to fall too low.
the cardboard fix works folk near north pole or in Norway, use cardboard, I owned Sweden car, in 1965 (59' car) that had pull cord in the dash that raised a RAD window shade device.
for super cold climates , they needed 1/2 a radiator. or the thermostat goes nuts.

the reason I bring up 4mm lips is for one reason, engine swaps. or even intake manifold off a newer car has 4mm lip and must have 4mm rubber ring surround gasket. or it floats the thermostat and will never run at 180f again.
im sure you seen my FRIGID page right>? (all ways to have this happen I hope)

https://fixkick.com/Cooling-engine/Frigi...r-cab.html
http://www.fixkick.com
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#7
for sure fixing frigid is first,
if the engine hits 150f from 180f say it dropped 30f degrees the ECU goes cold start mode and races idle and or the IAC thermal idle speed controller just below the TB opens at 150F
the ECU knows that rule too and changes mode, and idle goes high,
so as I always say fix idle controls last.
180f and holding is always FIRST to fix if not holding as it must, on all EFI cars made. (unless new cars with 200f stat)
http://www.fixkick.com
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#8
if you have AC do you. and use that dash defrost on the heater panel, set to AC on , and de frost , that is 1000RPM on this car.
even in winter if you turn that on, the AC compressor is ENGAGED and RPM is 1000RPM on all sidekicks (track-kicks)

on 89/90s more things cause fast idle, (blower on, headlights on, or rear window GLASS defrost heater grid ENABLED , seen on 4doors)but yours is a 91 and this rule not apply.
but told only in the wild case of engine down grades with ECU from say 91 to 89., happens on old cars. these events.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#9
is this over the top
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Cooling-...5703!US!-1
http://www.fixkick.com
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#10
(10-14-2019, 12:42 AM)fixkick Wrote: why drive with CEL lamp on,? its begging you to use the DLC Diagnostic jumper clip?
yes your ISC is dead, clean it.
the 1000RPM hot engine is wrong but of the fan clutch fails on a very cold day the thermostat would close and if super cold the bad fan will cause the Rad temps to fall too low.

CEL lamp came on today for the first time since I bought the car 2,5 months ago. After fitting the cardboard to block some of the RAD.

DLC on got code 13, O2 sensor bad. Took battery off for 4 minutes, no codes. Took test drive, no CEL. Put DLC in, code 12.

Not sure if the new O2 sensor is faulty (less than 500miles driven), or maybe exhaust (or something) got too hot when the dash temp gauge got to 1/2. (It has always been lower than that). I slowed from 65mph to < 50 when temp gauge got to 1/2 as I dont trust the bastard.

Also 3rd party 1-wire O2 sensor, original would have had to been ordered and waited for weeks.. bleh. (Original was also 1-wire, so in that manner they were similar).

(10-14-2019, 12:42 AM)fixkick Wrote: yeah, the fan sensor needs to be close to the thermostat outlet hose point.
the 50% AF boils as 260F,
197 and 203f are so close it really does not matter. (but yes, if the main thermostat is 180F and not the 195F option then either works but not the hotter, thermostat (150f)
the 203 seems best.
most new cars in USA have 200F thermostats. and 203f sensor above is way too close for new cars, how odd they dont have more choices,. Im curious.

Will keep it in mind if I ever convert it to electric. Your ebay link for the fancluch is unbelievable cheap compared to prices here. It is also below the minimum limit of customs tariffs. (Actually today's USD-EUR exchange rate its even below VAT tax limit). So I will definitely order the clutch.

BTW I ordered 195F STAT but the dealer made mistake. It was the 4mm rubber seal version. When I noticed this I already had opened the STAT housing, jumped to other car and went to change it (15 minutes before closing time). Only thing with 1mm lip they had was 180F, so either that or close with broken STAT.

This particular store where I found those electric fan DIY packages is oriented to serve financially broke customers with shit old cars. Could check some better options from more premium stores, but now that you gave the ebay link to fan clutch, wont bother.

(10-14-2019, 12:42 AM)fixkick Wrote: if you have AC do you. and use that dash defrost on the heater panel,  set to AC on , and de frost , that is 1000RPM on this car.
even in winter if you turn that on, the AC compressor is ENGAGED and RPM is 1000RPM on all sidekicks (track-kicks)

on 89/90s more things cause fast idle,  (blower on, headlights on, or rear window GLASS defrost heater grid ENABLED , seen on 4doors)but yours is a 91  and this rule not apply.
but told only in the wild case of engine down grades with ECU from say 91 to 89.,  happens on old cars. these events.

No AC on this car our climate being very much like Norway's, bit colder but more stable weather. AC was rare here in 90's, especially on cheaper rides like Vitara. Even my dad's 89 Camry did not have AC. Mostly Mercedes/BMW guys got AC back then here. Smile

Rear GLASS defroster does not seem to up RPM from 800, so I guess I have original ECU.

And yes I read your frigid page.. and on a few evenings almost every other page. Got a good bottle of whiskey so I thought to get familiar with my hobby car's possible faults. Just contacted you to get some assurance I am doing correct stuff. I dont know about mechanics, I am IT guy so all this is quite new.  Big Grin


Will check the ISC when I get the thermals fixed and stable. Temp needs to stay stable or the car will fail yearly inspection's emission test -> not allowed for road traffic then.


I think I also need to do some other checking around the EFI. Car runs fine when cold (around 2000rpm after the 3-15s boost on throttle). After idling 3-4 minutes at 2000rpm, it starts hunting idle. Varies between 900-1500rpm.

4-5 minutes of hunting idle, it will go to some cold ilde mode and stay around 1500rpm and then start slowly falling at about same rate as the temp gauge rises.. ie its probably doing something similar as choke does on carb engines. When temps are up idle has slowly descended to 800rpm (low electricity usage).

Nasty thing is that there are those 2 valves to modify something related to hot and cold vacuum tubes. Cold side is intact, HOT side plastic cap is broken and missing.. ie no idea what the setting is.. nor what all has been tampered with. Smile


Thank you very much for taking the time to reply me. Smile
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