1989 suzuki sidekick wont stay running

[fixkick]

Thank you for the replys. 

OK got the tests/recommended stuff done.

1. Motor vacuum looks good, steady and moves with rpm rise.
2. Burn symptoms, spark plugs are dry and not fowling. 
3. I had injector pro clean/flow tested at injector shop before heading to the shop 2+ years ago.
4. Tested ECT, shows proper reading of 2.2 cold.  2000 ohms cold, and 300 hot?   21c(70f)=2350 ohms



5. Tested map, it tested perfect per specs that are on your page. Has good vacuum to the map.
6. I am a manual transmission.
7. Putting vacuum on the EGR it fails to hold and leaks. So I blocked it off with the solid gasket and plugged the hose going to it. (yes for now, using blocking gasket on base)
8. Distributor mechanical and vacuum advance seems to move back-and-forth  freely. Pulling vacuum on the vacuum advance and it failed, won’t hardly move with putting vacuum on it and leaks out. I read a bit on it and it seems to only adjust timing slightly and shouldn’t stop my motor from running?? I will fully disassemble the Dizzy to do an internal inspection as recommended. ( for not take that vacuum line for advance and golf TEE it put the TEE there so the engine can not suck air on that line) concur , not cause but leaks add up.
all air leaks on this engine the MAP sees and engine races fast at full power, just like right too does on throttle pedal)

9. I unplugged the O2 sensor as a test, didn’t change running condition. Is that the test? Just unplug the connector? (yes,. most o2 fail for 0volts out and engine goes super rich )
but some bad 02 the heater inside leaks current over to the CELL + side (02 ouput) and engine goes super lean.  this is not the cause.

10. I unplugged ECT for test, didn’t change running condition.  (wow,that would cause super rich limphome mode. but on lean injector power whole go high, on good engine goes too rich)
11. Recommended to test sensors hot. I will run motor a bit to get warm and retest those sensors hot within a day or two. (ECT 300 ohms hot unplugged ECT ,ECT actual ohms)

• 12. I don’t have a scope but I would love to get one to add to my tools. I was looking at the Pico 2204a scope. Have any recommendations on a affordable scope? “ I would still have to learn to use”. any scope that can do say 100 volts,  best is one that can use a 10:1 probe,  the scope to avoid is 5vdc only scope, input max, and the like,
  

13. Looking in the airhorn at the injector spray cone, it looks good. Good pattern, no dribble, or anything weird.
14. My distributor is original, I have new NGK wires, cap, Rotor, and ignition coil.
15. Stated my primary resistance at Coil is out of spec. I have two, one old and one new I purchased a while ago. I tested again and this is what I got. The prime is 2.1 and 1.9. The secondary are 7.8 and 8.7. The book does state prime to be .72-.88 ohms and secondary to be 10.2-14. kilohms. Is this a problem? Specs seem to have changed since last tested not sure why other than it’s been 2+ years.  (meters (most) do not do below 5 ohms well, and 0 ohms can read 1 ohm in the leads easy, your readings are all GOOD. this line.15.

Things I’m going to do. Test sensors hot and take dizzy apart for inspection.

What else can I test or redo any tests a certain way? Thanks again for all the replys.   you are very welcome

injector not bad. flows good so is not that.
spark is in question, it is not easy to test any 89/.90 for spark, at all, as this distrub does so many things, back in the old days before 1979 we had distributor machine testers.

that can test the whole thing, then also has spark scopes (SUN?) that allowed seeing all 4 spark waveforms at the same time and spark plasma resistance.
a
this car runs standalone spark. can even be made to run with Carburetor. with adapter easy. 2Liter carb.  
things that can be scoped are spark HV with a real spark HV probe that uses the magnetic connection!.  to see what it does at engine cut out.  (expect anything)
this HANTEK HT25 PROBE ! works good as seen here. FOR A SCOPE.

CONCLUSIONS SO FAR?+
all testing so far indicates, engine is AOK, vac OK,, and compression ok, and no  A/T to muck up the  works.
INJECTOR IS OK, SO fuel can flow, with good pressure, 32 to 41psi spec and solid steady readings. (FUEL FILTER NOT CLOGGED) OR PUMP ACTING ODD AS THEY CAN DO.

all we know is spark might be bad in some why, or ECU is failing and not injecting correct PW (pulse width) at idle or throttle up.  bad ecu or some inputs wrong to it.

the scope is the only proof FOR INJECTION RATES, to see what the silly ECU is doing, there,  make sure the 2 wires on the injector were not hacked by others.
some owners of this car in fact the ECU injector driver (pair) transistor 1 failed, and to fix this they ground OUT or hot wire the dead injector wire to make it work but most times this goes super rich injection doing this nasty trick. wiring inspections on the 2 wires, by eyeball for hacking here is wise.


distrib machaine.#2




$33 scope,  400vdc with probe set to 10 :1. (nice lil' scope)
has analog 200khz limited band width , so square waves well be tad rounded, but we know they are not. from say any hall sensor.
we pay for 2 things here (3  is portability) 1: input voltages to 400v or above with probe to do that, and we pay for bandwidth,  1mhZ enough, on cars. more sure.
1mSps, sample rate is good. or higher

even the most cheap scope from china now does spec. above, for $12 kit. they are getting better every year..  50v raw input max, is 10 times that with using 10:1 probe.
most cheap (dirt) scopes will show a square wave as  sine wave for both reason, 1; imput amp limited to weak 200kHz bandwidth and for rules on sampling rate called the.
(50$ words.,,, (Shannon-Nyquist sampling criteria) the 1MSPS rate is super slow. my Owan scope does 10GSPS,  10000 MSPS.
the brain inside the scope most read the A/D flash converter and then RECONSTRUCT what it thinks is there, and then lie to you, (1/2 joking here)

in simpler terms  a $100 scope is what is needed, analog or digital DSO, to see any square wave as it really exists.
The Nyquist Theorem states that in order to adequately reproduce a signal it should be periodically sampled at a rate that is 2X the highest frequency you wish to record.

ON cars the signals are slow, so this is not an issue, on reading say, CMP,CKP ,CAS, or other sensors that move fast. they are really very slow that any scope made can see.
that matters is with DSO, it can not show you what the wave really looks like, in fact is just a guess. (top grade scopes DSO are extremely good) but cheap 0nes. just lie to you
on SHAPE,  it sill show  sine wave for shape of square wave and will be the wrong amplitude,  volts shows lower than real.

not saying useless those, not me, but 100mSps is best.

those china scopes for $20 they lie, and do not tell you ever accuracy nor try bandwidth and sample rates.  they even mix those up, or think they are the same. and are not.
200kHZ (200,000 hz) is max, on those. 1MSPS. is sample. they are for audio work only. or 10x that , ultra sonic.
not for testing digital electronics.
what would I buy lacking my 3 good scopes now?

that is tough question and would be:

10MHZ.
Velleman handheld Pocket Oscilloscope HPS140i

or from Amazon so can be returned easy. if not liked.


find 10mHZ bandwidth scopes  and up. even used or even working analog scopes, (solid state) $100 range. gets one.

you  are correct the picoscope is a lot of bang for the buck. (with probes) 2204A, and input max is 100v but not if using 10:1 probe. and 100 MS/s (1ch)




https://www.amazon.com/Pico-PicoScope-22...ial&sr=1-3

[fixkick]

GUESSING IS NOT CHEAP NOR BUYING TOOLS that will only be used one time.

new distrib.
new ECU (Cardone 1) refurb best.
but is a $600 guess, 200 for distrib.

if possible the next test is injectors pulses, idle and when racking open the throttle for a few seconds, to 0 vacuum and see PW then.
if wrong we must check all ECU inputs. next if those are good the ECU is TOAST.

make sure the map voltages are good all the way to the ECU, key on, and at idle, or the ECU will do the wrong thing for sure. and not its fault.

[fixkick]

this distrib is known for VR failure or igniter failures or both. and vacuum advance dead, and jammed up fly weights inside deep, centrifugal advance can be dead or weak or sticking at random . yes, id have it all apart every inch , inspected . the VR and ignitor can be bought new.

put the engine at 0degrees, TDC #1 piston firing, rotor, pointing to #1 spark wire, then remove distributor now, and do not move engine,
mark distib to base with witness marks there, (scribed or sharpee pen) to put back later.
fix distrib the put back and use markes above.
sorry of words above are old hat (grin)

[Shaarc5]

Thanks for the reply's.

1. Tested ECT 2.2 cold, 300 ohm hot.
2. I temporarily blocked the dizzy vacuum advance hose since it was leaking.
3. Yes I unplug the ECT and the map sensor and it doesn’t make a difference on running. Also cannot get the computer to show any codes while doing that.
4. I tested another ignition coil from a store and it tested the exact same as mine.
5. Fuel pressure is 37 psi and steady.
6. Injector wires look in good shape and normal.
7. I tested map voltage at ecu and it shows perfect reading with vacuum applied and at idle.
8. I took dizzy completely apart all seems to operate smooth and looks good.
9. I adjusted the air graph to the minimum of .008 and started it to see if it ran the same. It did. I adjusted it to the max of .016 and it ran the same also.
10. I retested my spark out of the coil and out of each plug wire with a test light so I could get a better look at spark and see how far I can jump it. Out of the coil it’s quite strong and almost pure blue spark jumps about 1.2 inch. At the end of the plug wires it’s about .5 inch jump and orange/yellow with a tiny bit of blue spark. A lot weaker. I could post a video on youtube if you guys are interested.
11. Dizzy cap is Bosch, rotor is Napa/echlin brand, wires blue NGK, all new at time of motor rebuild 2+ years ago. Distributor hasn’t been replaced and looks original.
12. I also tried unplugging injector and using test fuel again to run. It ran the same and doesn’t want to run and unless I feather throttle slightly.
13. If I had to guess I would say dizzy is my problem but I don’t like guessing. Is my next step to get a oscilloscope to be able to test/diagnose better. Is there any more test I can do? I plan on purchasing the pico 2204a for a scope and a handful of accessories. Ignition pick up, attenuator, back probes, and alligator clips.
13. I have noid lights but I don’t think it would help me with testing?

Thanks for all the help.

[fixkick]

Thanks for the reply's.

1. Tested ECT 2.2 cold, 300 ohm hot.  (GREAT !)
2. I temporarily blocked the dizzy vacuum advance hose since it was leaking.
3. Yes I unplug the ECT and the map sensor and it doesn’t make a difference on running. Also cannot get the computer to show any codes while doing that.
4. I tested another ignition coil from a store and it tested the exact same as mine.
5. Fuel pressure is 37 psi and steady.
6. Injector wires look in good shape and normal.
7. I tested map voltage at ecu and it shows perfect reading with vacuum applied and at idle.
8. I took dizzy completely apart all seems to operate smooth and looks good.
9. I adjusted the air graph to the minimum of .008 and started it to see if it ran the same. It did. I adjusted it to the max of .016 and it ran the same also.
10. I retested my spark out of the coil and out of each plug wire with a test light so I could get a better look at spark and see how far I can jump it. Out of the coil it’s quite strong and almost pure blue spark jumps about 1.2 inch. At the end of the plug wires it’s about .5 inch jump and orange/yellow with a tiny bit of blue spark. A lot weaker. I could post a video on youtube if you guys are interested.
11. Dizzy cap is Bosch, rotor is Napa/echlin brand, wires blue NGK, all new at time of motor rebuild 2+ years ago. Distributor hasn’t been replaced and looks original.
12. I also tried unplugging injector and using test fuel again to run. It ran the same and doesn’t want to run and unless I feather throttle slightly. (lacks aIR FOR SURE HOT ENGINE)
13. If I had to guess I would say dizzy is my problem but I don’t like guessing. Is my next step to get a oscilloscope to be able to test/diagnose better. Is there any more test I can do? I plan on purchasing the pico 2204a for a scope and a handful of accessories. Ignition pick up, attenuator, back probes, and alligator clips.
13. I have noid lights but I don’t think it would help me with testing?

Thanks for all the help.

"Yes I unplug the ECT and the map sensor and it doesn’t make a difference on running. Also cannot get the computer to show any codes while doing that."

this is a sign of bad ECU,  it seem to me it is stuck in BACKUP mode, 10x worst that, than LIMP home.

ECT open must set the code for that condition, it usually takes but a few seconds max to get that.  (there are 1 of 2 places the DLC jumper locations on 89./s) so that too is a problem finding it..
code 14 is ECT not connected, voltage to high.
12 code is good code (happy dogs tail wagging)
you must get some code no matter what, on your demand. (at DLC pins)


DLC oldest.  the so called DIAG FUSE , slot.




on othere years.91 up. or GM/.  the blue-yellow wire is always the color to find.
or on some newer 6 pin jacks, ask

battery is just to rear of this point,  I am facing rear now. and down to top right strut, USA Passenger side.  91 Geo tracker factory Corvette RED. paint.  (at CAMI plant)





so far all tests look normal.  (but runs super bad)


backup mode, is the worst to happen, the ECU knows that it , itself is bad, so goes to BACKUP mode. (this event is super rare,if true)

my guess is that only the TPS is factored for fueling,  a 1 sensor operation , all based off 1 factor throttle angle and will not be pretty that, super ugly running.

but for now lets find that BLue-yellow wire

bACKUP MODE WILL KILL DEAD MANY NORMAL MODES OF OPERATION, LIKE IDLE AIR AND IDLE CONTROLS, its only purpose is to move car out of danger if is true.
Injection tables are now backup tables and those are  going to be very bad.(crude as heck)

lets find the real DLC. (89-2004 examples)

https://fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html

[Shaarc5]

1. I can get codes from the box diag inside cab or in engine bay near battery jumping the blue/yellow and ground/black.
2. As no codes I meant all I get is code 12 a OK.
3. I hooked up the Noid light on the injector wires back probed to keep connected to be able to start and run. Noid light stayed on while running and gets brighter while revving up.
4. I tried unhooking the ECT again while running and this time I noticed it immediately started running better, almost would idle on its own and I could rack the throttle and it would rev up smoother. I unplugged map sensor while ECT was still unplugged and it ran even better. It now is idling on its own and I can rev it up quite a bit high with a single rack of the throttle. If I plug them both back in it stalls.
5. I also now can get code 14 (ect), and code 32 (map) while its running.
6. Plug wires 2+ years old. Same looking spark at end of all four spark plug wires. My rotor only goes on one way. I believe the service switch is only on newer sidekicks. As the same with the jumper diagnostic connector for ignition timing.

[fixkick]

1. I can get codes from the box diag inside cab or in engine bay near battery jumping the blue/yellow and ground/black.
2. As no codes I meant all I get is code 12 a OK.
3. I hooked up the Noid light on the injector wires back probed to keep connected to be able to start and run. Noid light stayed on while running and gets brighter while revving up.
4. I tried unhooking the ECT again while running and this time I noticed it immediately started running better, almost would idle on its own and I could rack the throttle and it would rev up smoother. I unplugged map sensor while ECT was still unplugged and it ran even better. It now is idling on its own and I can rev it up quite a bit high with a single rack of the throttle. If I plug them both back in it stalls.
5. I also now can get code 14 (ect), and code 32 (map) while its running.
6. Plug wires 2+ years old. Same looking spark at end of all four spark plug wires. My rotor only goes on one way. I believe the service switch is only on newer sidekicks. As the same with the jumper diagnostic connector for ignition timing.

seems to me the ECU is under injecting  in normal modes. (but why)?
are you sure the map works correctly from keyon only and at idle?  (2 tests)?
no hand tool, just normal hoses , see is MAP runs ok, under 2 conditions, keyon, then with idle forced. (vacuum ports can fail and hoses can collapse even inside.

[Shaarc5]

Yes map test perfect and at the computer. 3.9v at 0 vacuum key on and smoothly goes to 1.2v at 20 inch vacuum. Okay I will test running with engine idle vacuum. I did my engine vacuum test off of that hose and it was steady but I will test with map.

[fixkick]

we know map actual is good, hand tested but needs testing now on car.

make sure this funny device here is not clogged up, top left (left man)maked map sensor (port)
this map port is a filter or some kind of moisture separator but must not be clogged up.   Right side  man. is 91 -95 8v. Ignore.
make sure the a/t port is not there or if is, must be blocked for M/T use.

[fixkick]

the TB


the holes x5 yellow arrows, seen here must be blocked...  the red arrows must flow air for vacuum ports.  the 5 x holes must be blocked. IAC hole open.


like this.

below note how 2 hoses fit map this is the anti moisture freeze protection.  (one hose may not freeze with moisture is the hope) hose 24 a and b.
19 not clog.




make sure the Brake booster can, diaphragm is not cracked as this can cause huge vacuum leak. for sure too much at cold start.
even block the booster hose (huge) with large cork to test this theory. ( do not drive with booster off line, brakes will take huge foot force to work.)