1994 suzuki sidekick 16v wont start

[pen25]

ok i have a poor neglected kick that has 200k miles. i doubt the timing belt has ever been replaced and i bought it with 160k 15 years ago. been a great winter rig and i parked it july 2016. when i got back from a long trip of 3 months the darn thing wouldnt start and i get no spark. i can be an idiot at times and i might have disabled it thinking i would be smart but i doubt i did it as the common ways i would have done that which is pull a fuse or relay but everything is there.

anyway i have given it a fresh tuneup with new plugs wires cap and rotor. and going through the no spark troubleshooting i figured i would start replacing the cheapest things while waiting on the timing belt and related parts.

so things replaced is spark plugs wires cap rotor and went ahead and got a new igniter. next things i am thinking is coil or the crank angle position sensor.

i know the belt hasnt jumped or broke as the rotor position is spot correct for tdc. so before i bought the parts for this thing i want to make sure i have spark before tearing into it any more.

so my question is. inside the distributor is what apears to be j811 crank position sensor. but the docs state that for 16v motors it should be under the engine at the oil pan. rock auto doesnt list j811 and only has what appears to be at the crank.

so what is the sensor within the distributor as the image what i see on the ckp section shows 8v only.

[Rapom]

we need Kickfix. He hasnt been on in a few days. hopefully on vacation. but my first thought was... does your kick have a "factory suzuki security system"? lower glove box and look up and near the radio for a black box with about 109,678 wires coming out from it... its just somewhere to start. but basics here..check codes. if none then turn the key full forward (dont start) and make sure the engine light lights up.. another thing i would check would be engine grounds. and check for rat knaw/animal damage. are you sure its spark your lacking? remember too.. the 16v dist runs counter clockwise. make sure your wires are right

[fixkick]

redacted and RUDUX time
remove the nag switch (sorry my old brain and 10 years ago,,,,, lets me forget that nag, and want to... .lol) Im a fossil now.. sorry. 69yo
get the nag switch out of the car and in the the trash. now.
yank it out. (it has no use at all and only bad now)
All this is on my CEL page.

1: nag out. (switch ) MY NAG PAGE SHOWS ALL 3 PLACES SUZUKI HID IT.
2: DLC 6 or 4 pin? , jumper clip IT;(paper clip) now. (tell what is there please, 4 or 6 PINS, SO I KNOW)
3:Jumper pin marked, diagnostic request to black ground wires there. my DLC page cover all kicks 89 to 1999.
4: key on NO START , and get flash code 12, (means ecu STORED NO ERRORS, AND MEANS ok)
5: crank for 5 full seconds, no less. ok? (THIS ALLOWS TIME FOR THE ecu TO STORE ERRORS DTC ERRORS)
6: release the key, BUT do not turn the key off now.
7: got code 41, or 42 flash codes? (S.Morse like codes, like SOS save our ship?) all OBD1 cars had blink codes, even 95 toyota';s

SHORTER PAGE NOW THAT I KNOW COIL IS DEAD. FOR SURE.

if see code 13 that is bad 02 and is NOT IT but a bad 02 can short and blow the IG-coil fuse and end all spark , and is common as nails.



a dead cell lamp is , the 3 ECU fuses blown or some badguy removed the lamp to sell car for more cash. (endless examples)
the lamp must glow, CEL
and the lamp must flash on demand by you.

there are 3 fuses and 6 tests, IG Coil , FI, and dome, the first to kill dead the ECU, and all spark
the Dome fuse bad makes the ECU forget errors !!!!!

[fixkick]

once there is spark , the engine runs now on test fuel, even with a dry gas tank.
i can keep it running for 5 minutes on bet. like that.
using only test fuel (instant start in a can), and a key. (a 2 man job)(persons)

when testing spark use new spark plug , gapped to .028" never use old fouled and now shorted plugs to test spark. any spark plug that fits in hand and wire lead works even wrong spark plugs

[pen25]

response in green

ok i have a poor neglected kick that has 200k miles.
i doubt the timing belt has ever been replaced and i bought it with 160k 15 years ago. been a great winter rig and i parked it july 2016.
when i got back from a long trip of 3 months the darn thing wouldnt start and i get no spark.
i can be an idiot at times and i might have disabled it thinking i would be smart but i doubt i did it as the common ways i would have done that which is pull a fuse or relay but everything is there.
When I go on long trips, I full fuses, FI or IG-Coil and or pull the distributor rotor. to stop thieves. (99% effective) or pull the suppressor device.


anyway i have given it a fresh tuneup with new plugs wires cap and rotor.
and going through the no spark troubleshooting (so you tested for spark at the coil and the 4 spark wires,?)
if the 4 are dead but the coil has spark that is clear sign the cam belt slipped, so now sparks between the cap terminals uselessly and dead.
i have no spark from coil. I have attempted to pull codes but i get no cel flash's 12 or other wise. i do have an o2 sensor that has caused the cel stay lit and like i said i have neglected this thing for a long time and now its time to put in the work. I removed the ecu and checked for leaking caps and i didnt see any. i havent ohm'd the coil yet.


i figured i would start replacing the cheapest things while waiting on the timing belt and related parts.

so things replaced is spark plugs wires cap rotor and went ahead and got a new igniter. (if coil wire spark is ok so be ignitor,)
next things i am thinking is coil or the crank angle position sensor.

i know the belt hasn't jumped or broke as the rotor position is spot correct for tdc. (good sign that, and true but rotor runs 2:1 ratio. from crank) and a timing light does work on a dead engine if sparks ok but wont start, timing light work even at 300rpm starter speeds)

yes this is true but right now i am getting zero spark so timing light wont help me on this.
so before i bought the parts for this thing i want to make sure i have spark before tearing into it any more.

so my question is. inside the distributor is what apears to be j811 crank position sensor. (the CMP is in side the distributor and never fails)

but the docs state that for 16v motors it should be under the engine at the oil pan. (wrong book, 1996 is first year of OBD2 CKP sensors)
rock auto doesnt list j811 and only has what appears to be at the crank. there is no crank sensor on any 1995 , if you see one there, that means someone put in a 1996 there but did not connect it because 1, no wires there and 2, the ECU has no CKP pin there ever.
not only that the 1996 starts and runs with the ckp dead, (kills misfire detection dead but runs) but 1995 cars have no missfire detecting ecu at all.
what i am wondering is the sensor within the distributor. you have a video showing how to test it off the vehicle using the led tester. i have no problem pulling the dizzy to test it. im just at a loss as you said this should only be for 8v and im wondering what the j811 sensor is if its for 8v and i know i have the 16v.


so what is the sensor within the distributor as the image what i see on the ckp section shows 8v only.

why not let the ECU tell you why the spark is bad, if spark is bad at the COIL terminal that is. (the coil has 1 larger wire we cannect that to a spark plug and do the 100 year old spark test, with a test spark plug and wire, and plug shell grounded.

ECU test, for now spark;

1 FI , and IG coil fuses not blown (both must be good) and Dome fuse if storing DTCs in memory is nice, and is. so 3 fuses above left knee...
if the cover was lost type fuse in my search box, fixkick.com
i have verified the fuses are good and have replaced them. have also verified the dome light works.
2: key on CEL must glow or ECU is dead, (or lamp missing or stolen) the CEL must glow first. does it? this must work ! on 95s, on a 96 our scan tool can read all CEL status , states.
CEL = SES. = check engine lamp, or service engine soon or MIL.
cel glows but doesnt flash even with jumper on the dlc block. can i jumper it in a different location?
3: then insert the diagnostic jumper see on the DLC.
the 95 year had 2 styles of DLC. 4 pin or 6,. most 16v have 6 pins as seen here, insert the jumper now, its harmless.
an unbent paper clip. (metal not plastic or painted clips, only metal works) (electrics)
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html
i have the 4 pins and have verified i have jumpered the correct pins.
this works running or not running.
4: key on, CEL glows, and now flashes 12s, , 12 = im ok. , 41/42 is spark failure per the page on DTC errors.
i get no flashes. 12 or other
5: crank for 5 full seconds, release key, this lets the ECU see that spark is bad. and will tell you why it is bad,
one DTC tells you CMP is dead , the other tells you the spark primary is dead (coil or ignitor dead or the spark suppressor fell off car harness)

all the above is for spark dead at the actual fire wall spark coil ,, ignition spark coil.

the ECU on this car generates all spark
fuses first.
CMP next.
ECU next.
ignitor then
coil , on fire wall, in 1996 the coil was moved to the inside of the distributor. your car is fire wall coil.

here is 96 wiring , dead accurate

http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/no-spa...l#G16B-all

trick 1, crank engine and tachometer will move just a bit off 0. 200-300 rpm is about 1/3 up from to the 1k mark (1)
scope shows.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/CAS-91.jpg

trick 2, using an analog needed meter set to 20vdc range , black grounded , red on white wire above (is the connector loose or corroded?)
the meter will wag (0v the 5vdc) as you crank this is a good CMP doing that.
so i called it the ckp but i was meaning the cas. and now that i looked again i am taking it as the j811 was used in both 8v and 16v and i need to check the blue wire for 12v and checking the black to white should show 5 volt as i am cranking. if this is correct i will run this test when i get home.
this CMP is a hall sensor and needs 12vdc to work or it will dead due to lack of power to run it. the blue=black wire is power.

the suppressor missing may cause weak spark but for sure kills dead all fuel injectors !
with this cause a no spark? i have tried starting it with ether after replacing the wires cap and rotor before testing the coil with known good new wires.

i am sorry I have no CMP photos of 16v engines.
its deep deep inside, its best just to leave it alone, or risk damaging it.
make sure the connector is good, at the DISTRIB.
and make sure the grounds near there are good.
the best way to test the CMP is with a scope , or meter, on the white wire, and let the ECU tell you its bad.
DTC error 42, (CEL blink codes) means CMP is dead.

the ecu knows its dead for 2 reasons, the crank signal is at 12vdc cranked, and cmp signal is dead. give it 5 full seconded cranked to let it learn that.
and tell you it is dead.

tell me is coil spark dead? this is first and test #1 on any car made, no start , wet or dry spark plugs.

yes no spark at coil. i will ohm it to verify primary and secondary are good

[fixkick]

lets start over, please
spark dead at coil HV , lug, dead spark (a key hard fact to work and allows me to forget 1/2 what I typed above.)
then you told me, code 12s ok then in later in text, you said opposite
"cel glows but doesnt flash even with jumper on the dlc block. can i jumper it in a different location? "
do not use CAS works (crank angle sensor , cam angle sensors so means zero) sorry. i used it ever and can not erase CAS.
CKP is crank , no 1992-1995 USA kick has one, ever. if seen there that means a 96 engine was put in your car, and will be have wires to it, on any 1995, (95 harness has no CKP wires ever)
so lets forget CKP and focus only on , ECU and on CMP., ok?>
I also have no idea what this is j811 ?

lets do basic basics, with ONLY 2 facts known.. (spark is dead, at HV coil tower lug using a test spark plug and tested just like all cars back to 1920. coil> wire, spark plug grounded shell.
no spark and CAM SPINS< the CAM MOST spin and he rotor in the distributor must spin cranked.
1: key on and all 3 fuses have 12vdc on both sides of fuse, (IG-coil, FI, and dome ) that is 3 fuses, all have power in 6 places (im doing acid tests here) using a volt meter 12dc,
2: key on the CEL glows.
3: OK you can not find the DLC, nor say if yours is 4 or 6 pin, SUz used both. (4door, 2door, 16v/ 8v) so..... looking only matters at the DLC actual. in front of battery.
the 6pins is here.
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/CAL-car-diag2.gif

the 4 pin is same place but is
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/diag-conn1aw1.jpg

oddly the door counts can set which connector is used, and is confusing has hell.


the DLC on all USA 1995s is in front of the battery, the connector has a nice rubber cap and it pops off and has keeper. and you see 4 pins or 6, the colors matter too.
the DIAG wire is blue-yellow. ground pin is BLack , regardless of 4/6pin.s
4pins B to C blue-yellow to black
6pins pins 2 to 4 , same color.
this must work, the cel must flash 12s or the ECU is bad.
the CEL must glow, key on , MUST, and must flash on demand. flash something.
your are must be a Federal (USA) car, and has the stinking NAG light switch..
my nag page cover every type of nag switch made, on this car, (suzuki hides it in 3 places just to be like revenge for Hiroshima, LOL)

http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/NAG-Lamp.html
I personally remove the nag wires, from the speedo. I grap the 3 wire connector there and yank it of , for eternity, it has zero use, and only a pain to deal with , but that is how I do it.

now you can see the NAG switch hides a dead code 41 or 42,error. see? it will always, if in the wrong slider position
be nice to get codes from you ECU now, for sure.
have your read my cel page yet<> its all there. but lets go father

step 4, the nag is defeated and you insert the diagnostic jumper in the DLC, the DLC diag pins is now grounded to the black wired pin.
the CEL now flashes codes, it must
know that the diag pin can be used, 3ways all 100% safe.
A: keyon , even bad engines, only takes a good ECU and nag defeated.
B: idling
C: driving..

for get the o2 sensor please. my guess code 13 in the past, forget this now, 02 does not run spark in any way.

now lets say code 12, flashes, now. or 42 (42 mean ,dead cam, or dead distributor)
we then crank the engine for a full 5 seconds (the secret here is the ECU brain waits awhile before flagging (reporting) CMP Death. this is true on all cars with EFI.
so after 5 full seconds cranked, release the key do not tune off the key
give the ECU 2 minutes to report code 41, or 42. let it think about it, a minute. ok? key still on........
I am sorry for not telling you about the NAG first.



step 5 , later, depends on getting the NAG fixed, and then doing all above first.
my guess, so for is the NAG hides our very very important codes, (as all do that all federal cars do , not Canada nor California, nor ROTW(reset of the world, no)

I will await your getting flash codes
all ECu must flash CEL codes (any code, it must blink on demand !!!) on demand or the ECU IS DEAD or fuses blown, must.

this is why zero progress.
only the NAG.
on most cars made 1989+, the ECU will tell you why it cut spark, it will, if you do the tests right in the right order.
the key to success is ,letting it talk to you.
On 1996 car, and newer only a scan tool works, here.




the NAG switch FYI, is just to tell you that the CAT converter, needs to be checked due to running leaded fuel, (now long long gone) so is useless, remove the switch
so that if the CEL wants to flash far far from home on late dark night in freezing rain and engine died? car is old, so...
you never ever ever have to deal with this stupid switch. (in adverse conditions !)
that is why I remove it, for safety of you and family. (or anyone)

[fixkick]

facts to deal with
suzuki does NOT sell internal, distributor parts below the dust cover , below the rotor, !!! 58Bnn (58 bravo distribs)
go to rockauto.com read your dizzy page, (distributor) see the lack of parts not sold????? they do sell rebuilds for sure, so does the great CARDONE
my guess is j811 is below that? J18 DOHC engine? use COPS J18/J20 engines have no distributors at all, they are DIS engines.
you have G16b engine (16 valves) it is not a J engine there. until 1996 (options)
the 8v and 16v distributors share no parts at all, so forget 8v please, it has no bearing on this, at all ! but....
how ever, on car and off car bench tests are the same. (pins different for sure)

the CMP is a hall sensor that never fails,. never seen one fail, nor hear of one fail. ever. on any sidekick or tracker (they are the same car engine and ecu ,btw)

lots of bad wiring, sure.
lots of rusty connectors to it sure. or someone hot wired it and blew it to hell..sure.
but outputs a perfect 5vdc square wave (on car) of car same if done correctly, and so here we go there.....

it can be tested 3 ways. (the sensor btw is not sold , never seen by me ever)
1: scope is best. (always best)
2: any meter, and analog tops the list see the needle wag and not confused a stupid DMM meter, lacking the analog scale as my High end Fluke has.
3: any LED.

here is me doing the LED way the 3 cent test i call it for folks lacking good tools only

this is my mp4 video short.
wife spinning the shaft,and me showing it blink.
MP4 , you can down load it and use VLC on any PC made to see any MP4 made, btw. cell phones, toss coin , I never use my cell to do , hard work.

it is just a perfect square wave, 0v, 5v, 0v ,5v , as you turn it, so and analog meter would show needle high the low 5,0,5,0v same.
Im uses a 12vdc power pac to power my Distrib.... and power and ground and and led with 511 ohm resistor in series. (about 500 ok>?)
the LED is a 2volt device, and must have a 10v dropping resistor or you will blow up the LED and the CMP transistor.
that is why using a real volt meter is best,.
to bench test this CMP with a analog VM (even the $9 one at walfart ,next to tie wraps rack) use 1k ohhm resistor from 12vdc to the output pin
this is called a pull up resistor, lacking that resistor the CMP will seem dead, and is NOT.
The ecu has this resistor so out of car the resistor is missing now. distrib not in car.
Off car scope testing needs a 1k ohm pullup resistor to 12vdc

this plays in IE11 (windows 10 even on a new PC) and on firefox v56. 8 second video!

http://www.fixkick.com/videos/FLV-all/cmp1.mp4


there is no reason to do any of that, if you learn back-probing techniques. (sharp needles probes sets, bought or home made. using leather sewing needles)
just use a meter on car to test any CMP like this (hall) the 89/98 car this does NOT WORK. (others reading)
an analog needle meter on car, set to 20vdc range (or 15 some)
then make sure 12vdc pin in distrib is in fact 12vdc key on, the CMP must have power to work at all.
then back probe ( the output pin to meter)
then engine over any way you can by hand or by key turned to crank.
the voltage wags, 0v,5v, 0v, 5v.
the ecu pulls the pin to 5vdc , using the ECU 5vdc internal reg.

if the pin is dead, we then check the ECU 5vdc refr pin for 5vdc.
this too can fail. one easy way to check 5vdc is at the TPS pin Gray-red wire, if 0v, the ECU is bad, or that wire is shorted to ground. 4.75vdc mininum.

warnings,
never connect power directly to the Distrib output pin (never ever)
nor any LED lacking the 500 ohm series resistor , ever or the CMP will be BLOWN TO HELL. for sure.

this is why testing on car is 10x more safer, to the distrib and the ECU, ($600 worth of stuff there, refurb values)

we will find the cause, ive never given up' nor failed to get it done.
waiting your flash codes. please.

[fixkick]

also the rotor turns CCW
most GM books get this backwards
the 8v turns CW the 16v CCW
a fact to deal with doing service.
replace spark wires 1 by 1.

the ECU makes spark on this car 1991 to now 2017
the ECU does do all spark advance, (spark tables inside the ECU do that)
on this year car only CMP and fuses need be good and ECU has power (CEL GLOWS if it has power) and you get spark.
the flash codes are key to any fast and cheap repair, in all cases. we ask the ECU first.
the NAG switch undermines the CEL. (suzuki too cheap to use 2 lamps, sigh)

[fixkick]

keep in mind this,
the car can be push started, with a dead starter,
so the ECU does not need a starter line signal make SPARK ever.
or hill gravity started, coasted and dump clutch in 2nd gear is the way.
this tells you the ECU wants to make spark easy as pie. (getting fuel to work takes spark , the ECU monitors spark at COIL primary and if missing sets a code and cuts fuel in 1 second)

you never answered my question on the tachometer
my guess, no 4wd and no tachometer. so cant answer.
but you never told use full car spec.

1995, ?doors, 2wd/4wd?, 16v. (like that)

[pen25]

Ok I was going through the above and like I said before I was getting zero codes. Solid cel. I went through and was looking at the relays and found I didn't replace one of the relays last Dec when was first messing with it. I just replaced the last of the 2 relays and I am now getting code 41. This makes me feel better. Least I know something to go off of. I will troubleshoot the code 41 more tomorrow. Thx for the help