The dreaded stalling and rough running is back. I took it out of storage a week ago today, drove about 200 miles of highway/city/light-offroad with 0 issues. For example, I got stuck in some snow last sunday and It was idling for a good 2 hours PERFECTLY while I shoveled it out.
The new issues randomly appeared yesterday. It all started when the transmission was hanging in 1st and 2nd(mostly). I immediately stopped into an auto parts stop and checked my trans fluid, which was a little low (this was from when I replaced the TCC solenoid). One quart brought it up to level, might need another ounce or two. Anyway, after I got home and it had cooled down I went to start it (2 hours later). It started and stumbled, had to start it again. I must also mention it is very humid and foggy today and yesterday. At this point it started roughly. It runs GREAT on the highway. It pulls like a train and can cruise at 75mph all day long.
So what the hell is wrong with this thing!?!?!? Also, I have a p0400 code that comes after about 2 runs on the highway. Catalyst monitor won't complete. p0400 seems to fail the test that doesn't involve stopping. It illuminates when coasting down a hill on the highway. I have a good CDN ECU from a 1997 sidekick. Can I use this to cheat on my p0400 light? haha :p
I'm a little confused about what "removing the egr means" when you stick a golf tee in. where exactly does it go? I'm hoping it's egr related. http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/96-EGR-map.jpg[b](what number?)[/b]
Anyway, could a egr code even cause my tracker to shudder and stall at low speeds. Just this morning it shut off and I had to restart twice while backing into a parking space at work. Sometimes the RPMS drop so low that the check engine light and oil light come on as if the key is just in the on position and it catches itself again.
So here is what I have done in about march while it was still in storage:
-Spark plugs (gapped to .028")
-PCV valve
-Air filter
-Dist Cap
-Dist rotor
-Repaired exhaust manifold crack (done properly. drilled, preheated, nickle rods, cooldown, also put exhaust putty over weld)
-Upstream o2 sensor
-cleaned the Idle air control valve.
-swapped in the IACV, TPS (whole throttle plate actually, didn't want to mess up TPS) from good working vehicle (The ones that came off mine also worked well on the donor vehicle)
Also did a compression test (#'d from front to back)
- 1=190psi
- 2=180psi
- 3=180psi
- 4=185psi
Since then I have also:
- 8120 NGK blue ignition wires as per your suggestion
- wix fuel filter
- replaced TCC solenoid and o-rings after testing the electrical (It locks up everytime at 47 now YAY)
- cleaned all vacuum lines are ports related to EGR/modulator. Including the bend behind the freeze plug. How clean do these have to be by the way. It's not perfect but I can stick a brush through.
04-29-2017, 12:45 AM (This post was last modified: 04-29-2017, 12:49 AM by fixkick.)
Ill answer in line :
The dreaded stalling and rough running is back. it is misfiring.
I took it out of storage a week ago today, (after how long):? 1 week 1 year, more?
drove about 200 miles of highway/city/light-offroad with 0 issues.
For example, I got stuck in some snow last sunday and It was idling for a good 2 hours PERFECTLY while I shoveled it out.
The new issues randomly appeared yesterday.
It all started when the transmission was hanging in 1st and 2nd(mostly).
I immediately stopped into an auto parts stop and checked my trans fluid, which was a little low (this was from when I replaced the TCC solenoid).
One quart brought it up to level, might need another ounce or two. (done hot, only, and in park, running , right>?) never overfill it.
Anyway, after I got home and it had cooled down I went to start it (2 hours later).
It started and stumbled, had to start it again(that is MISFIRE)
. I must also mention it is very humid and foggy today and yesterday. At this point it started roughly. It runs GREAT on the highway. It pulls like a train and can cruise at 75mph all day long. try to know that if some failures and now dead smog parts, you can get more power, than stock, case in point unplug front 02 OXY and now it goes richer and you get more power but the cat burns up.(or shortens its life drastically)
the engines ok, it has good compression and full power, so is OK. what is not ok, is misfire. bad. that.
and EGR is always first, and for sure if idle is not 800 is it hot?
and for sure if engine stalls parked
and for sure engine loves to stall (hot) coming to a stop signal of any kind or way. as you come near a stop the ECU shuts the EGR off DEAD
on this car 0 mph , the EGR is also defeated. as does WOT, and CUT fuel mode in ECU.
So what the hell is wrong with this thing!?!?!?
Also, I have a p0400 code that comes after about 2 runs on the highway. (it runs 2 tests, A: cruise test, and B, cut fuel test)
Catalyst monitor won't complete. (that is correct the new ECU will not run P421 cat checks if other primary test fail, that includes, 02 failures of ANY kind)
the cat test is last , forget it for now.... fix misfire, you cant run most tests with misfire.
p0400 seems to fail the test that doesn't involve stopping. It illuminates when coasting down a hill on the highway. I have a good CDN ECU from a 1997 sidekick. Can I use this to cheat on my p0400 light? haha :p ( the CANada ecu only hides the CEL lamp coming on, the P0400 will still store"set")
my EGR page covers all ways it can fail
test one is the stall tests.
(its really 2 tests or 3 in one 1 test)
its burn fingers test, so use gloves or hand vacuum tool
here it is 1 by1.
1: cold engine i press the egr diapharm ring in, 1/4 of an inch (6mm) that is all it goes. even new
if it is stuck then the EGR is stuck, (bad or just packed in carbon, clean it now)
2: ok it moves, and will do so with 8 "inches HG vacuum now. cold engine off
3: ok, hot tests, gloves or with hand tool, suck 8"iches HG on the nipple on main EGR
engine goes to 400 rpm or stalls, if no change, the EGR pathes are blocked.
(if you get this far tell me, and we can go to end point easy.)
4: sure EGR sticks open stalls parked or at low speeds and for sure just before coming to stop.
5: fuel pressure wrong, most of these cars the FPR is END OF LIFE NOW, they can stick closed, easy worn, and it will flood fuel and misfire badly.
it can be tested, seem my FPR page. It gets tortured every time you move right foot, due to vacuum changes, its pure FPR torture....
6: leaking injectors, try techron fuel additive, i hate additives but this one works, and is safe, and not snake oil. some types bad other useless/harmless.
7: maf stuck high , but no so high as to set DTC MAF.
8: injector balance test fail (a hard long test ) (last resort test)
9: a missing tuneup, no you did it. spark and filters.
10: bad fuel. or old fuel bad mixed with good. from long term storage of car or fuel. or someone put in some diesel there. ouch.
11: MAKE SURE car runs ok with gas cap off or way loose. (proves its not vacuum caused, with a bad or wrong cap there) but causes bogging not misfire.
Misfire codes DTC P0300 or P030x codes may take 2 or 3 trips to set, never just 1 trip, due to silly OBD2 rules.
but if i had it id drive it 3 times fast, hot, and 20 + miles.
then if it misfired, it stop and scan it,
lets say , only P0302 fails every time and never any others for sure.
then injector 2 has issues. (im sure not #2 valves are not sticking hot )
one can swap spark 1 and 2
then swap injector 1 and 2, to see if problem follows parts.
I'm a little confused about what "removing the egr means" when you stick a golf tee in. where exactly does it go? I'm hoping it's egr related. http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/96-EGR-map.jpg[b](what number?)[/b] sorry, the golf tee (or screw) plugs the hose to it cant suck air and cause LEAN OUT, (maf engines do not like vacuum leaks)
the hose goes to the EGR nipple, one pulls hose , then golf tee's the hose end.
the makes 100% sure the EGR valve (main is closed) if for sure closed, now, then you drive car, if misfire is gone now, then you know
the EGR cause that.
if not , not. (this i call the temporary EGR defeat test for diagnosis only)
Anyway, could a egr code even cause my tracker to shudder and stall at low speeds. yes, if its sticks wide open. sure.
the EGR valve opens in linear actions based on engine load. (takes a CAT to do that, the cat backpressure , tells the EGR how much EGR flow to use)
Misfire has many causes over 50 but in Physics and with tools just a few.
1: engine bad, (no its not) nice to check that off ,no>? and the 30 + causes there. sure.
2: bad spark,
Just this morning it shut off and I had to restart twice while backing into a parking space at work. Sometimes the RPMS drop so low that the check engine light and oil light come on as if the key is just in the on position and it catches itself again.
So here is what I have done in about march while it was still in storage:
-Spark plugs (gapped to .028")
-PCV valve
-Air filter
-Dist Cap
-Dist rotor
-Repaired exhaust manifold crack (done properly. drilled, preheated, nickle rods, cooldown, also put exhaust putty over weld) (WOW , love to see you do that for sure, you are my student, I love to see folks actually fix cast iron and amazing skill set of all)
-Upstream o2 sensor
-cleaned the Idle air control valve.
-swapped in the IACV, TPS (whole throttle plate actually, didn't want to mess up TPS) from good working vehicle (The ones that came off mine also worked well on the donor vehicle)
Also did a compression test (#'d from front to back)
- 1=190psi
- 2=180psi
- 3=180psi
- 4=185psi
Since then I have also:
- 8120 NGK blue ignition wires as per your suggestion, yes, MAG wires , and this engine love each other (suzuki spark is weak)
- wix fuel filter
- replaced TCC solenoid and o-rings after testing the electrical (It locks up everytime at 47 now YAY) NICE WORK !!!
- cleaned all vacuum lines are ports related to EGR/modulator. Including the bend behind the freeze plug. How clean do these have to be by the way. It's not perfect but I can stick a brush through.
Id defeat Egr first. (after 100% sure its closed cold)
then test, drive.
if the egr is stuck closed, and or packed solid with carbon, then it cant leak
and the misfire is not EGR, id fix the real problem first then last EGR once all else is ok.
the monitors on OBD2 are complex.
and have complex Preconditions. this is last last. this topic on Monitors. complete. worry it when all things are ok.
1: drives prefect.
2: no DTCs
3: egr fixed
4: ok now monitors worry.
04-29-2017, 01:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-29-2017, 01:03 AM by Perry.)
To answer some questions:
It has been in storage since December.
I followed the exact procedure in the owners manual for a hot check of the a/t fluid. Operating temp, in park, level ground, running.
idle is 800rpm hot, even with a code reader it is +/- 5 of 800rpm, when it's not stumbling.
The most common way for it to stall is during parking maneuvers. for example, applying <5% throttle and letting off in forward/reverse. Going from drive/reverse to park/neutral will also cause a stall or rpm drop to ~400 momentarily. Just now it started to bog on takeoff in traffic, around 1500rpm (1st gear). It does not stall coming to a stop. It only stalls when crawling/idling.
Ok, for the egr, which nipple am I plugging. I assume the smaller one (#2). Just tell me which number to plug. Hopefully this helps me out.
By the way, it passes the stall test. It doesn't stall but it is really close to it. about 400ish rpm.
04-29-2017, 10:57 PM (This post was last modified: 04-29-2017, 11:03 PM by Perry.)
I have some updates, but I'm afraid they are are not really good. I plugged the ERG in just about every way possible and it still has the stumble. You may think I am stunned, but I'm still not 100% sure which hose to plug and where, so I tried them all. Maybe someone can dig up a picture of the proper way to plug it.
Today I plugged the hose at where I marked 2 on the EGR picture posted above (no change). I then plugged the "bark tube" or the one that puffs exhaust out (no change). Next I tried to plug both the "p" and "q" hose (no change).
It is running absolutely horrible today. It shakes, rattles and dies when idling in park. You can even notice hesitations when driving if the RPMS are under 2k every now and then. It will also stumble and get confused for the 1st 5 seconds or so of cold start. Starting it hot requires manual throttle today, unless you try 2 or 3 times. On top of that I am not getting a p0172 code, and the oxygen sensor monitor in still incomplete, even though it was complete all week. It's a brand new NTK sensor (~300miles on it)
And want to here something else weird? You know the chime that happens when the door is open and the key in the ignition? I would never hear that sound, but since this problem is back the chime beeps now??? I can't be related can it? I wouldn't think so.
***I'm having trouble playing the videos in Firefox. IE, Edge and Chrome all play them fine.***
The 5 mile try data/sheet was a cold start and a drive to work, about 5 miles.
Thanks again fixkick for all the time and effort you put into helping me try and figure out the issue. I do not want to give up on this poor little tracker, it's just very sick and needs our help.
forgive the obvious,but the first rule of hoses,are mark them A, B ,C. so they can not be mixed up and now more labor, finding the books,etc, to cure that.
first to to my egr choice page http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-choice.html#index
then (USA cars) pick your year.
98 takes you here http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-Gen3.html
on that page, is photo map of your system. (P means Pressure to Japanese I guess, or Vacuum side or Plenum side, ) 2 ways to remember it.
open hood, look up, see that EPA mandated, Smog vacuum map, bingo EGR.
TO PROVE THE EGR IS NOT CAUSING ISSUES,. WE DEFEAT IT( OPEN HOOD SEE THE VACUUM MAP THERE, the map can be different, USA fed, USA CALIF or canada
the car is tuned up,
no ideal how long parked, yet.
engine is ok, great compression.
me, not sure what stumble means. (elborate that, misfire, ? felt, seen, heard, bogging, slight throttle hesitations> ) i cant drive it to witness all that... so....
1: cold engine, with index finger, exercise the diaphragm. it moves 1/4" (6mm) in and out and closes, if it does that good, as seen on my EGR pages.
if it is struck closed, it's not cause of STUMBLE.its dead now.
if its stuck open it is the cause. (the EGR is turn off parked, at idle. 3 ways) (vsv, ported vacuum and ecu commanded and zero speed now, = off)
2: the hose at the main EGR nipple can be unplugged, at the EGR main side, do not mess with those hoses on VSV on back of intake manifold. or get them mixed up, this is in USA called EGR2 system has 2 valves now. (95 back 1 valve)
VSV ,means there are 2 vacuum solenoid valves.
The 2 valves allow the 2 EGR tests to happen and tell owners whats failing, with 2 , P0400 codes, A and code B. its feature that is nice. here
Id bet the EGR is not the cause, but only tests prove this, we take it off, clean it (MAIN) make sure its clean at the seat then make it closed
it must close on its own, it has a spring inside and must close, if yes, put it back and remove hose, and put a golf tee in that vacuum sucking hose.
do not let any hose suck air, running, or engine can go lean and stumble.
ok now the EGR is defeated, 100% for testing, so stumbles now, sure it does.,all we did above is prove the engine stumbles with NO EGR. active.
end EGR (we can make it actually work later after fixing STUMBLE true cause (lots there are) stumble is reall MISFIRE>
misfire has over 50 cauese but is about 10 tests to find it, after a full tuneup.
working and slaving to find misfire with bad spark , and no tunes done, say in a decade is well ,just punishment to owners.
(quote and commented)
I have some updates, but I'm afraid they are are not really good. I plugged the ERG in just about every way possible and it still has the stumble. You may think I am stunned, but I'm still not 100% sure which hose to plug and where, so I tried them all.
Maybe someone can dig up a picture of the proper way to plug it. ( the map is under the hood see under hood EPA sticker , BINGO USA laws put that there.)see my links above, to my egr pages.
Today I plugged the hose at where I marked 2 on the EGR picture posted above (no change). I then plugged the "bark tube" or the one that puffs exhaust out (no change). Next I tried to plug both the "p" and "q" hose (no change). (the p and q , P goes to plemum side vac side, Q goes to main side (main EGR) as seen on my 96-98 egr page.
MY ERG PAGE SHOWS how to do it right?
It is running absolutely horrible today. (COLD engine hot, , or both?)
It shakes, rattles and dies when idling in park. Gross misfiring , is FPR OK? does
You can even notice hesitations when driving if the RPMS are under 2k every now and then.
It will also stumble and get confused for the 1st 5 seconds or so of cold start.
Starting it hot requires manual throttle today, unless you try 2 or 3 times. (so does idle race started cold as it must)
On top of that, I am now getting a p0172 code, and the oxygen sensor monitor in still incomplete, even though it was complete all week. The O2 is slammed to 0v or 1v, all the time, tell me how the monitor complete can even run. at all, it cant.
It's a brand new NTK sensor (~300miles on it) 02 front , you forgot to say front, and no O2 works if exhuast leaks near it, none do is #4 exhaust runner, cracked?
FOR GET COMPLETES those are only for the smog man, fix 172s. (172 only means gross rich and misfiring always does that, rich, misfiring is unburned fuel)
do know that many tests (monitors) can not run if there are other hard failures, like this car.
for example the CAT test can NOT run unless all others are ok. for sure no 02 failures.
also , know it can take 3 trips (hot and long) for the P03xx misfire codes to set, (fail)
And want to here something else weird? You know the chime that happens when the door is open and the key in the ignition? I would never hear that sound, but since this problem is back the chime beeps now??? I can't be related can it? I wouldn't think so. I dont know chime rules, and is not related, sure if the CEL glows, and is fashing , (means gross misfire) it may chime, but I dont care, only my eyes, ears
felt engine shaking and ecu finding DTCs matters. not chime. Ive never owned the 98 so maybe they added a chime line to ECU, IDK.
***I'm having trouble playing the videos in Firefox. IE, Edge and Chrome all play them fine.*** NO 2 browsers are same. for this, you must configure them all.
videos are the most complex topic off all, there are vast numbers of video formats, try VLC for best play and needs JAVAscript active to run them. n browers.
The 5 mile try data/sheet was a cold start and a drive to work, about 5 miles.
Thanks again fixkick for all the time and effort you put into helping me try and figure out the issue. I do not want to give up on this poor little tracker, it's just very sick and needs our help.
(unquote)
facts:?correct me.
Misfires parked.
hot or cold engine misfires, badly, and is real, the front 02 sensor will be black and stuck at 0v or 1v, (no not bad 02, bad fueling)
FPR is 19 years old,?
EGR closed, do the EGR defeat test clean the main EGR at rear of #4 intake runner?
exhaust port 4 cracked, ? shield off SCOTTY
fuel pressure at spec, idling hot, and misfiring now?
Maf VOLTAGE CORRECT WITH A VOLTMETER?
HOT IDLE 800RPM AT MAF OUTPUT PIN IS ( 1.7–2.0 volts) suz. spec, and TRUE.
YOUR PHOTOS I NOW REVIEW
i see the 02 front (only front matters, rear is EPA cat test toy) goes to 1 v, at time count. 6174. so we see it stick there, and that is WRONG,and is not exhaust leak (that causes 0v)
0v = lean max oxy, or exhaust leaks, 1v is rich, no oxy there.
exhaust cracks all suck in air (20% oxy) at the end of each PUTT. so no leaks allowed there.
the map data is only for EGR. this engine runs off MAF
the MAF data there, I presume driving (nice plot, very very nice) shows a HAPPY MAF.
The maF tracks TPS, super good and TPS works great.
ECT is HOT 189f , so thermosat is reglating ok and ECT works. all good,
whats left. seems all inputs to ECU are ok
so whats left
Fuel, pressure always tops list of 1st (not bad fuel , if fuel is bad or was bad, that be 1st)
fuel pressure on this engine is complex.
in fact if the FPR is bad, its hopeless case. the ECU ASSUMES it works perfect and injects from tables based on perfection there.
then uses maf data to inject,
if say the FPR sticks closed, and fuel pressure goes to 60psi, its a lost cause. fix this first.
one other cause is exhaust leaks, causing ECU to go Max rich, like yours is now.
unplug the front o2 connector.
run ok now?
when the 02 is inpugged, the voltage goes to .45vdc, (means perfect mix and lies to ECU) but hides, that exhaust leak now if present.
see>
the EFI sysem is slammed full rich,
172 tells you that
1v on 02 all the time tells that.
long term fuel trim will go to max NEGATIVE (trying hard to suck out all that excessive fuel)
why is the engine rich. that is the path, tests and final solutions.
ever use a fuel pressure gauge.?
other causes, are leaking injectors.
try some Chevron techron additive in the tank? its the most powerful of all, , i dont like additives but can be a useful diagnostic tool, if it injects better now, the injectors may be failing...
test 2,>? after below is , are all 4 spark plug tips black, if yes, below, no one is black , injector leaks or new spark plug bad there.
go to harbor FRIGHT (sp, lol)
then get this tool has , the 6mm suzuki hose there.
does vacuum hose on FPR leak fuel> yes, its bad.
off my pump page
Static: 36-43 PSI, keyon, not started ( you may have to key on 3 times to build enough pressure, pump runs on 3 seconds)
Running: 30-37 PSI , idling.
Residual :25 PSI , after 1min. drop test. key off , test. (running , key off, time it) I call it the leak down test. if fails, injectors may be leaking.
the FPR is tricky
it changes for vacuum in the plenum and for altitude.
at high plenum vacuums it drops fuel pressure as much as 8psi. if not the engine floods.
if the FPR is stuck at WOT mode, at idle it will flood, go super rich and misfire badly.
Misfires parked. Yes it does. Very rarely does it misfire driving unless it's very low speed/rpm
hot or cold engine misfires, badly, and is real, the front 02 sensor will be black and stuck at 0v or 1v, (no not bad 02, bad fueling)
It's much worse when hot, but it does misfire a little when cold. E.I. cold start will jolt between 1500rpm and 1200rpm for the first few seconds. On a cold start, it also cranks less than when it's not misfiring (when misfiring, cold start is instant)(when running good, it cranks about 3/4times). Hot start without throttle will crank forever, strong gasoline smell.
FPR is 19 years old,? As far as I know
EGR closed, do the EGR defeat test clean the main EGR at rear of #4 intake runner? EGR defeat runs the exact same. It fails test "A" according to scanner.
exhaust port 4 cracked, ? shield off SCOTTY repaired properly and still holding up
fuel pressure at spec, idling hot, and misfiring now? I can't find a pressure tester locally that will fit. Might have to order one. No tool rentals here either. Unless I can rig one up.
when the 02 is inpugged, the voltage goes to .45vdc, (means perfect mix and lies to ECU) but hides, that exhaust leak now if present.
see>
the EFI sysem is slammed full rich,
172 tells you that
1v on 02 all the time tells that.
long term fuel trim will go to max NEGATIVE (trying hard to suck out all that excessive fuel)
The o2 sensor being unplugged made 0 difference (that I could tell). Have a look in my shared google drive folder for the FT graphs (long and short, idle is near the end)
I'll check out the FPR page. It's starting to make sense since you say it fails rich. Right now off the gas=misfires from hell. on the gas = happy happy!
I will report back, i really need a pressure tester... Do you know what the thread is on the test port?
Also, please try and watch the 3 1 minute long videos in my folder if you need more detail on the chugging/misfiring and stalling.
YAY)