Problem to start when the engine is hot

[fixkick]

Hello Luis C.
you posted to others 16v engine. with this.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you was write me because you iare speaking about 1'6l and 16 v, and my vitara is 8v, I though was a misunderstanding and not for me but to other person.. But not problem Iill tell you all about this matter.. For the moment as you know the TBi is completely new, and I don't like to move any screw or piece sealed from the Factory, because the TBI it's still under warranty.. The engine start without foot helps I never did that during all this years and start very fast it the engine need half-turn only to start, so I suppose has not rpoblem about fuel pump or something about fuel system..

I have a new thermostat but I'm waiting to test some parts before replace it, but I think that something is wrong about coolant system.. Any way, and because you are trying to help me, I'll send you all about I see in this matter..
You tell me about oil pump and other data, thanks for that, of course, I'll see all abut.. You know, when I went to buy a new thermostat, they told me that the thermostat from 1,6 valves is more little than 8 valves, and because it's MPI, and yourr engine has injectors and my engine has only one, some pieces and data could be different, but I think the most have to be the same.. (that is correct, do not mix G16a with G16b parts, yours is G16a 8v)

Well, friend, we in touch, of course, and I'm sorry about this misunderstanding, now I'm going to do about 25 kilomenters and I'm going to make another test again.. I¡ll send other message to you and to fixkick also to know what is going on..

my guess is posted, to your page, to wrong person... can happen easy with 2 pages open... blush.

---

thermostats.
im told the if your engine is from Spain, the Sanatana plant , they run their own thermostats, special.
ok you have a 1996 engine, that is setup like a 1995 here in usa, the G16B early engines.
all early engines here, have 2 intake manifolds.
the deep well and the shallow well thermostat mount. (all G16B (16v) owners must look first time and see what is there.
this dicates not the thermostat type but the gasket method. using the wrong gasket on any 4mm well lip. will cause the thermostat to float and go NUTS.
a very bad thing for EFI and engine, and IAC.

here is the factory warning page, on this fact.
if the lip is 4mm then the RING rubber must be USED , MUST.
SUZ TSB:

---

when buying aftermarket thermostats.
they have a list. showing what it fits.
Suzuki uses the same VIN code for engine, in usa, for 8v and 16v (G16a and b) same. and that is a real pain here.

---

see that rubber ring,
if missing on 4mm engine, it floats and the engine temperature drifts endlessly, in total chaos..... a bad place to be.
the other bad place to be IS using the above in a j18 or j20 engine as many dumb stores advise.... dead wrong.
the above is a STANT brand, a top brand here.

in better stores i can buy a 192F thermostat. (rockauto has them)
i run the BECK 688, for faster warm ups...
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframec...ttype=2200

my guess:
1: new thermostat is needed badly, (yours is a grand ma, so old.)
2: need to set duty cycle. on ISC via the bleed screw on the TB.

---

id like to reCAP this whole post (best i can tell, please correct me)
you 8v ran for years, and then the TV valve was found damaged (scraping? you said but not in details, )
Forensics? seems "the TV was set to closed 100% by some owner" (illegally) HE? did not like 1500 to 2000 RPM cold starts. so... started hacking...
so this owner (not pointing fingers) closed this never touch screw TV stop, then after driving , a long way, the TV dug a hole in to the TB bore and wrecked it.
(it will do that, every time)
am I correct here?????? now you need a new TB, so got one from Santana. looks nice, Ive never seen a new one, they are like $1500 here.
Thanks a million for the nice photos, the iAC cut down is a treasure !!!!


first off , the new TB was installed by the mech, im sure they did it wrong, and not by the book, most do here... ignorance.... and no books.
1: set the idle switch to spec, using 3 feeler gauges. for 0.016" gap for TPS idle switch falling below 500 ohms (threshold set, carefully) see my chart?
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/TPS...tml#matrix
2: then installs it to engine, and then sets duty cycle, hot. (if thermostat is bad, all this is a just a waste of time)


now when you start the car, it will race, as all 8v G16a do world wide, by design... (DP and IAC actions, )
the Dash pot retracts in 3 to 30 seconds, you can not change this timing, ever. it's fixed in the ECU but the DP has rpm screw, that can be lowered.
DP idle test, hot is 2500rpm, (per the book)

next is the IAC, (DP is retracted now) the IAC dictates rpm now. it's very much open or fully. or more if colder. (wax pellet physics here)
you can not change this. the IAC is factory calibrated in the base of the TB, if you do try to hack it. bad things happen! (never try to fool any ECU)
next ....
now the IAC is closed 100% and water is above 179F. temp. now.....
and now only the ECU controls RPM at all times and is fixed by the ECU coding inside. (using the ISC electric idle valve_)
but we must have duty cycle set correctly in order for the ISC (ECU) to work right under all conditions of engine loading, (Alternator, PS, and AC and defrost)
800 is normal
even under all loads, on, 800 rpm (fan blower, head lights, defrost grid in rear heating...) 800 rpm, with below exceptions..
a/c is 1000 (or idle up wire shorted to 12v)
p/s overloaded is 1000. (or its wire shorted to ground)
and 800 works even in DRIVE, if by chance you are running any Auto tranny. (you have 5sp) so... forget this.

the engine, any excessive vacuum leaks will cause the ISC to lose control easy.
if the ISC is commanded shut, and rpm is above 850 RPM , the idle controls fail. some early engines when this happens the RPM'S hunt or surge.
end recap.

[fixkick]

side comment, blind
if the new TB has white paint on the TPS screws, it may be set to .016" (0.4mm) already, but that fact will never stop me from checking it.
i close the valve and i get 500 ohms or less on TPS idle pins.
then use .4mm feeler at the stop screw and it's still 500 ohms or less. then open it a tad more and goes to infinity.
i trust no one, i do the tests. first. after all its in hand and super easy to do off car.
i this switch fails, ISC goes off line, the EGR will act up, and the timing freeze test fails. and more,,,,

imo, and glad to help you.

[LuisCarlos]

"you need to be clear, what rpm worries you, the 3 to 30 second, Dash POT RPM or the cold start AFTER< (IAC thermal RPM)
this is no CARB engine, you need to work with the rules of the ECU, in all cases (if you make the computer confused, then,...... all bets off)"

I don't konw how to write in color letters from here, but I'll put quotes to your words..

Well, I'm worried about start when the engine is hot, neither DP nor when the engine is could, and of course I respect ECU rules all the time, and as I said you I'm not going to move any screw or device sealed from Factory, and much less when TBI is still under warranty..

So you said me about head lights, well, if when idle is normalized to 800 r.p.m and I turn on the switch lights the idle come down to 700 r.p.m only for half second, then go again to 800 r.p.m, and if I turn off go up to 900 r.pm for half second too, go again to 800 r.p.m, so according to your information this's normal ?..

"GREAT THE ISC is alive, and TPS switch is closed GREAT>!"

Great news friend, this had been an interesting and single test..

"(under "acutator" please say where. or use a link to it)'
omg, i love your IAC photos, brilliant work that.....
nice new TB and ISC, do not mess with the hex screw or that too fools the ECU, we do tweak the junk yard ISC to get the worns seat to seals.
but never on any new ISC. ever. bad that."

Well, I made that photo behind the TBI, opposite to DP and looking the camera at that area, but I not sure if the "acutaotr" is the "half moon" part of TBI where the throttle cable is connected, if is so, that was the place where I made that photo, sorry because I don't know how to insert a link and from where, I'm don't have too much experience about informatic system only a little..

I never going to do nothing with hex screw to mess the ECU, in the old TBI I manipulated it but the idle speed barely changed, and you can see in my gallery that this screw ii's still sealed with silicone from the Factory..


".. (the side bottle, sucks as engine cools and fills as the hot water expands, the trick is , how much it refills cold , is how cold it got?)
see"? as side tank level will be higher on hot days, and less on cold, (pure physics of 50% antifreeze and water)
what really matters, is the bottle dont drop each day, or week, that be engine leaks."

Yes, I know how this system work, thanks anyway, I think the side bottle refills a little more in summer but it is always under the low mark, but the radiator is always full, and I never saw that the engine or coolant system was leaking..

2ª And the next is very curious, and is about to pinch ISC air hose, so when I start in hot and the idle speed is in 1000 r.p.m

"(why is this?") you ask me..

GREAT!! as you said, this is my really problem about all this strange cas.., For what, when the engine start in hot the idle is 1000 r,.p.m ???.. and not come down from this idle, if you don't accelerate a little the engine, if not so it will continue lifetime like this..
Yes, that is why I'm worried about, this idle speed al 1000 r.p.m when the engine start in hot..

"this is all very odd, on a hot engine, the TV is 100% closed, is it?"

You are rigth again, is very odd and rare, don't forget that Suzuki foreman didn't find the problem..

Yes, TV is 100 % closed..

So, you are firmly succssefull, You have understood what is the real problem about all of these messages in this Forum..

"the IAC is closed, but did you modify that new IAC in base of TB, but it is closed hot. if hot, hot means over 150F and for sure 180F minimum, no guessing real instrument measurements....

Yes, I modify new IAC but after long time the idle was working long time with that anomaly, i.e. at 1000 r.p.m when start in hot but despite I modify IAC the problem continue until today, I think this problem has about three months ago, when the Suzuki foreman gave me the car after long time looking for a solution, but he could not..

"The dash pot is retracted, is it?"

Yes, PD retract very well, I filmed it with my video camera, and after start in cold and in hot PD I saw it many times and it is retracted as it should be..

"the TPS idle switch is closed and new. and factory set. from SPain factory. (id calibrate it per my table on TPS, its factory data)
so where is that air coming from, seems it is the ISC. so that means the ECU sees reasons to activate the 1000 RPM rule.
but way, well only 4 ways,"

Yes, I think like you, maybe the ECU sees reasons to activate 1000 RPM rule, but why after Iaccelerate a little that rule finish and not does more like this ?..

"1 (tps idle switch is set wrong and sometimes fails, on the cusp. so calibrate it . )"

I can't calibrate it my friend, I haven't device for that and if the Suzuki foreman did everthing about and he said "everthing are OK" but he didn't found how to stop wrong idle when staring in hot, anyway, I'm going to see him again to ask about I know now..

" 3 throttle cables sticking... 3speed, cruise or main throttle)"

No, that cable has enough or sufficinet slack and never is tense, it's greased, this was the first thing that the Suzuki foreman and I looking before to do nothing about this add idle..


"actions."

"1: new thermostat, and hotter is better if you dont like TBI , fast idles, (all TBI do that. for just cause) 82c or more , more is better. "

Perhaps, tomorrow I'm going to replace the new termostat and see what happen..

"10: vacuum leaks are all suspect here, any leak at all can cause the ISC to loose control, even a cracked brake booster diaphram. or any hose or any diaphram on any vacuum servo on engine or leaking VSV valve."

That is interesting too. So when I press the brake when the idle engine is normalized i.e. at 800 r.p.m nothing happen, but when I lift my foot from brake pedal, idle speed goes to almost 950 r.p.m, dosen't matter if head lights is turn on or turn off.. Anyway, when idle is noemalized this mean all the time driving less when start in hot, then where are thouse vacuum leaks ? Is very rare this matter..

"oh wow, thanks for such nice photos !!!!!!!"

Welcome, friend, at least I've colaborated in something to support Forum..

Well. I'll continue reading this message later, I'm going to having lunch now, it's half past two p.m.

Anyway, I don't like to bother you or other member much more about this matter, i think it will be resolved soon..

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4729' dateline='1446206104']
Hello Luis C.
you posted to others 16v engine. with this.
[quote]Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you was write me because you iare speaking about 1'6l and 16 v, and my vitara is 8v, I though was a misunderstanding and not for me but to other person.. But not problem Iill tell you all about this matter.. For the moment as you know the TBi is completely new, and I don't like to move any screw or piece sealed from the Factory, because the TBI it's still under warranty.. The engine start without foot helps I never did that during all this years and start very fast it the engine need half-turn only to start, so I suppose has not rpoblem about fuel pump or something about fuel system..

I have a new thermostat but I'm waiting to test some parts before replace it, but I think that something is wrong about coolant system.. Any way, and because you are trying to help me, I'll send you all about I see in this matter..
You tell me about oil pump and other data, thanks for that, of course, I'll see all abut.. You know, when I went to buy a new thermostat, they told me that the thermostat from 1,6 valves is more little than 8 valves, and because it's MPI, and yourr engine has injectors and my engine has only one, some pieces and data could be different, but I think the most have to be the same.. (that is correct, do not mix G16a with G16b parts, yours is G16a 8v)

Well, friend, we in touch, of course, and I'm sorry about this misunderstanding, now I'm going to do about 25 kilomenters and I'm going to make another test again.. I¡ll send other message to you and to fixkick also to know what is going on..[/quote]


my guess is posted, to your page, to wrong person... can happen easy with 2 pages open... blush.

[/color]Yes, I agrre, I posted wrong my mail notification confused me.. Sorry I know how write in color letters but not very well, I'll try to do it much better in the next..

Yes, my thermostat is made in Spain. But when last saturday I open the cap thermostat I saw that thermostat they gave me was wrong, it was a little big, one milimeter more bigger than the old. I measured it with the caliber.. So, I'll given them the chassis number to bring the right one, so I put again the old one and I have to wait, maybe it will come in this week from Santana..

[color=#FF0000] I tested grand ma thermostat.. Al least it open after you warm up the engine after about two minutes or like this, I put my hand next to dash gauge place, and other hand above the cap thermostat where is the big pipe to radiator.. I accelerate a little to get warm up, and I have to remove my down hand because heat, then I felt the heat when the thermostat started to opened..
When I remove the old thermostat and I prssed the spring I tested it as it was a little blocked because I felt some point resistance accompained with a sound as "clac, clac", but after I press the spring repeatedly the sound was over and the spring was hard but flexing best..
And when I start the engine again the gauge temp go up as it was working during all nineteen years e.i. slowly rising, because in the last time it was up very fast, it needed only 50 meters to go up, although the engine was could and was still in 1400 r.p.m..

But about 1000 r.p.m when start in hot continue, anyway, I¡ll wait new thermostat come..


This termostat use rubber O- ring 4.0 mm without gasket as I can see in your warning page figure A as late.. And it has also a bleed valve very small that we must to put in the right way i.e. looking to the radiator as I saw this detail in Rhino Manual.. This is the link, I think you have it too, but just in case..

http://www.rhinoman.org/manuals/vitara/99500_60A10.pdf


"my guess:"


"id like to reCAP this whole post (best i can tell, please correct me)
you 8v ran for years, and then the TV valve was found damaged (scraping? you said but not in details, )

Well, no problem, I¡ll tell you much better all about this "rare case" but starting from the beginning, telling also a problem that finished but 30% only, and I never told you because was old problem,..

Last years about summer, when the engine began to expend a lot of gasoline smelling vary bad and the idle ISC or IAC was died too because when cranking in could the gauge was 900 r.p.m only, nothing about 1600 r.p.m as normal, would directly to 900 r.p.m.. And in hot was very difficult to start, so that when start again in hot the engine turn off again, but at the end when it start again, then I have to accelerate all the time to avoid off again until idle was normalized,
Then, I took the vitara to some car workshop, but none of them had OBD, because Zusuki Central workshop was closed some yeras before because manager money corruption..
Only in one of these workshop and because there was working there an old staff from Zusuki Central I left the car there... So he put a new ECT only because he can't do more because they don¡t had OBD.. From that the engine start in hot much better, but not in could, and of course the car don't pass ITV (Technical Inspection of Vehicles)..

But because the foreman fron Suzuki lost his job he opened his own cars workshop, and he's the only that have OBD, for that I took the car there..
So the old Suzuki foreman got after long time an old TBI from scrapping because there are not almost any vitara in scrapping here, and if any it's only in chassis, I knew that too..

But the old TBI from scarpping was also ISC or IAC problem, he wanted to get other one from scarpping too, but I said him was better to buy a new one.. So a new one TBI came from Suzuki Santana Motor, but it was the same problem that we have now i.e. when the engine start in hot.. So because he knows the spare chief in Santana Motor long time ago, he could bring a new one, but the problem was still.. But I think the problrm is other issue..

Yes, the TBI cost about as you said $1500, but he said to spare chief in Santana that nobody is going to buy more a new TBI of this model, because there are not many vitara like this model here, and this is truth, there are so many Grand Vitara here but not this old vitara model, so and because theey are friends also, he got buy the new TBI for about $750, this mean 680 euros..

Summarizing:

1- TBI from scrapping was wrong in TBI or ISC.. I have it in a box..
2- New TBI worked very well on road and in the city as the vitara was new, but not in a correct way about TBI or IAC and it was returned..
3- Second new TBI working very well too but about ISC or IAC has still the same problem..
4-The foreman has been two weeks checking the engine, he said the OBD don't found any code errors, then, he couldn't find the problem..
5-I don't think the problem is in TBi..
6-When the new thermostat be here and installed we'll more about..


"first off , the new TB was installed by the mech, im sure they did it wrong, and not by the book, most do here... ignorance.... and no books.
1: set the idle switch to spec, using 3 feeler gauges. for 0.016" gap for TPS idle switch falling below 500 ohms (threshold set, carefully) see my chart?"

Yes, maybe they don't use by the books as you said, if the problem continue after I replace allhoses vaccuum also and some checking more, I'll take the vitara to a special workshop about carburator and TBI only, they began to work since 1960, because if as you said the problem is about they installed not by books and I don't have this kind of devices.. I hope they accept vitara to fix it..


"now when you start the car, it will race, as all 8v G16a do world wide, by design... (DP and IAC actions, )
the Dash pot retracts in 3 to 30 seconds, you can not change this timing, ever. it's fixed in the ECU but the DP has rpm screw, that can be lowered.
DP idle test, hot is 2500rpm, (per the book)"

Of course, I never going to change DP it retract at 3 second in could and in hot, it is as came from Factory..

"next is the IAC, (DP is retracted now) the IAC dictates rpm now. it's very much open or fully. or more if colder. (wax pellet physics here)
you can not change this. the IAC is factory calibrated in the base of the TB, if you do try to hack it. bad things happen! (never try to fool any ECU)
next ....
now the IAC is closed 100% and water is above 179F. temp. now....."

Today, I'm going to put IAC as it came from Facroty, of course, although when starting in hot r.p.m up to 2000 r.p.m..I'll se what happen after that..

"even under all loads, on, 800 rpm (fan blower, head lights, defrost grid in rear heating...) 800 rpm, with below exceptions..
a/c is 1000 (or idle up wire shorted to 12v)
p/s overloaded is 1000. (or its wire shorted to ground)2

I check this wire and it is OK in right conditions and not shorted to the ground.. A/C working also at 1000 r.p.m.. And when I lift my foot of the brake, the idle goes to 950 r.p.m about and come down to 800 r.p.m again..


"the engine, any excessive vacuum leaks will cause the ISC to lose control easy"

Yes, I suspect about that too, but my doubt is, 'if there was a leaks, why after the engine is hot and the idle is noemalized at 800 r.p.m I can drive without any problem about idle 800 r.p.m, like road signal stop, or traffic light in the city or traffic jam' ?.. Anyway,as I said you I¡m going to change all hose vacuum, just in case..
Well friend, I can send you some vídeo that I have, and to see you much better how the idle is running both hot and cold, but if you know how to do I'll try to send you them, they only need one minute to see..

About photo I can send you what you like, you can see the vitara model.. By the way, this model has the oxygen sensor not above the exhaust manifold but under it..

Thanks a lot again, and I hope this Sherlock Holmes's case will be over very soon

[fixkick]

first off , i glad to help you and your are always welcome here. and no reasons for sorry ever here, its all to easy to have 10 problems with old cars.
some problems even hide others.... (fun no?)
sorry you confused me by posting 16v responses. the 16v has no dash pot. so... is very different EFI too. TBI is yours, 16v is MPI 4 injectors with MAF.

that is correct. the santana engines, in europe run a unique thermostat. but keep that well size in mind, 4mm well lips all need rubber surrounds
my themostat page, hints a this santana BLUES? (old parts) seems they use 1980s parts... for some reasons...

http://www.fixkick.com/buy-parts.html#vit-stat

i only know that above for now... can look up yours. .
IF?
i can look yours up of you photo the body tag next to battery, this has the market codes, and factory codes, etc...

keep in mind that in Europe they have suzuki type engines, type 1,2,3, and more, and then Santana engines.... complex,
we have 2 here, 8v and 16v. super easy to get most parts. if you buy by valve counts (vin is no help here)

1mm bigger STAT
diameter? here , if ours are 1mm larger OD, outside diameter it will not fit into the well pit. per my sections (suz) drawings on page 1 back..

ok sounds like your OBD mechanic has a tech1 scan tool, if yes,, that is best to have working on all old SUZUKI
it has streaming data on sensors, (kinda, you can scan any sensor) and watch it.... so is best.
on old 90s cars, its best to get a good themostat first. the ECU (EFI) will not work right if the thermosat i bad.
that is because the ECT reads water temp and this reading stages the EFI from , cranking, to cold run, warm run and hot run modes.
if this is wrong, it will waste fuel and make lots of smog... so the thermosat is first. and not having a seized clutch fan on cold weather.
Ah the car is subject to smog test. that is KEY factor here.... (cat must work and EGR too, i bet)
the word "scrapping " is what confuses, me,.
my guess, is the old TB , had a dead, IAC and bad ISC( the latter is common fail, an is sold cheaper, 1/4th of a new TB)
there are lots of reasons for too high idle speed, cold and not. lots
the first (besides vacuum leaks of ANY kind on any 8v TBI system)
is:
spark timing, if someone set the timing way advanced the RPM will rise. (you can test this your self with the strobe lamp)
but is tricky to do... the spark timing, using the freeze jumper, requires 800 rpm hot to make that work (chicken and egg syndrome)
the best way to do spark is commandeer (overide it) the idle bleed screw and force 800rpm hot, and set the timing to spec.
now work idle speed issues.
what i do on a cold engine.
is make sure the dash pot closes, (id does)
then rpm can be 1500 rpm , (more if real cold, IAC does that) and is mandated in the usa by the EPA, to lower smog cold,! its the law here. cold engines racing be damned, EPA always wins (MPI solved this... issues, but yours is TBI)
how to get lower that 2000, well , turn the bleed lower (cw)
pinch the ISC air hose (not water) and see if its open. (ecu caused)
pinch all vacuum lines.
try to find all sources of air , cold started.... the IAC (thermal) can in fact be blocked, 3 ways. top blocked, side port blocked or custom base gasket blocked.
i recommend blocking side on new TB or if old TB use the top port.
if you block the port, cold, and start the engine, (will take 5% right foot throttle open action to start car with no IAC)
what is RPM now.? see what i just did, im checking for gross vacuum leaks.

now i answer your great question
" why after the engine is hot and the idle is normalized at 800 r.p.m I can drive without any problem about idle 800 r.p.m, "

that is easy, the ISC did that (ECU servo logic ) did that. if the ECU sees a huge leak, of air hot, (RPM) it then closes the ISC
this normal action, lowers rpm to 800 rpm and HIDEs said leak.
this is it's purpose. until said leak progresses to too much illegal air and the ECU can not longer hit 800 rpm (duty maxed out)
you need to troubleshoot cold, mode,
then set hot duty cycle. (hot mode) and test the regulation (it works you proved that) but DUTY might be set wrong.

the ISC is not used, much on a cold engine, until 150f temps are reached,
thent he ISC wakes up.
imagine the ISC trying hard to fight a stuck open IAC, (impossible that is)
the engine must cross 150f

back to cold rpm , after all that is the post. why is my cold rpm too high.
answer,
its normal (my guess is 2000 is ok in alaska, not been there, but that wax pellet does shrink at -40f, I measured it and it does. so.... it will race faster and colder temps. BY DESIGN.
you never once told me out door temps, at 2000rpm ? (some folks live at high altitudes and gets cold there)

"oxygen sensor not above the exhaust manifold but under it..?"

the 8v single o2 is dead center top of exh.
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/exhaust16L-1w.jpg
-------------------------------------recap TB swaps-------------------------------------------------------
old TB had a bad, IAC and bad ISC, so we forget that. Scrapping?word ,dont know it here.???
the mech , should check the TPS GAP. and if wrong set it to spec.
and set throttle cable slack
and then set duty cycle. just 3 steps, not one skipped.
the duty cycle varies by engine, (engine vacuum power (weaker on older engines) the duty cycle set correctly allow the ISC to work right under all loads. HOT.
check spark timing, at 800 hot. (using the freeze jumper clip, at DLC next to battery)
check engine is fully hot, when hot. (gauge it) or scan the ECT sensor for 180F hot. or more. if stat is more...
check for vacuum leaks, what i do is block the ISC air hose, (pinch it) and HOT idle will drop to 400 rpm or stall. if idle is high here, YOU HAVE VACUUM leaks big time.

cold idle does not work at all like hot idle, (think like car has 2 injection systems, or 3, for cranking) the modes are UNIQUE.
the 2000 rpm what if your dash gauge lied.? some do.

i use an optical hand head tachometer, that is deadly accurate. the dash gauge is more a toy than and instrument. as is the dash water temp gauge, (no numbers)

good luck to you, and do tell me more.... fixing the hard cases are fun.

we should work only the 2000 rpm issues, and forget all else. , then when solved work to next issue, IMO.....

cheers !

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4746' dateline='1446471894']
"first off , i glad to help you and your are always welcome here. and no reasons for sorry ever here, its all to easy to have 10 problems with old cars.
some problems even hide others.... (fun no?)"

Yes, you never is going to be boried, of course..


"i only know that above for now... can look up yours. .
IF?
i can look yours up of you photo the body tag next to battery, this has the market codes, and factory codes, etc.."

-IF mean Factory Identification ? I¡m going to see it and take some photos fo that tag..


"1mm bigger STAT
diameter? here , if ours are 1mm larger OD, outside diameter it will not fit into the well pit. per my sections (suz) drawings on page 1 back.."

-I'll send you some photos about old and new termostat, but they don't call me to collect it still, I'll go today to the shop and I'm sure the termostat is in the shop from some days ago, here in Spain so many people aren't formal about that, they said 'I'll call you' but they never do it..


"that is because the ECT reads water temp and this reading stages the EFI from , cranking, to cold run, warm run and hot run modes.
if this is wrong, it will waste fuel and make lots of smog... so the thermosat is first. and not having a seized clutch fan on cold weather.
Ah the car is subject to smog test. that is KEY factor here.... (cat must work and EGR too, i bet)"

As I told you the ECT has one yeras only, but is posible it's a little deteriorate, I'm going to remove and clean when I get the new termostat..

"the word "scrapping " is what confuses, me,."

-This mean where old car are stored to sell parts..

"what i do on a cold engine.
is make sure the dash pot closes, (id does)"

"then rpm can be 1500 rpm , (more if real cold, IAC does that) and is mandated in the usa by the EPA, to lower smog cold,! its the law here. cold engines racing be damned, EPA always wins (MPI solved this... issues, but yours is TBI)
how to get lower that 2000, well , turn the bleed lower (cw)"

Which is this bleed lower (cw) ?.. Is sealed from Facrory ?, if so I prefer don´t move it before checking everything..
I returned the IAC valve as it came from Factory, then agin when start in cold go up almost 2000r.p.m for one second, then come down to 1600 r.p.m to start to warm up..

"pinch all vacuum lines.
try to find all sources of air , cold started.... the IAC (thermal) can in fact be blocked, 3 ways. top blocked, side port blocked or custom base gasket blocked.
i recommend blocking side on new TB or if old TB use the top port."

-You mean to put a hand on top TBI ?

"if you block the port, cold, and start the engine, (will take 5% right foot throttle open action to start car with no IAC)
what is RPM now.? see what i just did, im checking for gross vacuum leaks. "

-That is difficult for me to understand..

"now i answer your great question
" why after the engine is hot and the idle is normalized at 800 r.p.m I can drive without any problem about idle 800 r.p.m, "

"that is easy, the ISC did that (ECU servo logic ) did that. if the ECU sees a huge leak, of air hot, (RPM) it then closes the ISC
this normal action, lowers rpm to 800 rpm and HIDEs said leak.
this is it's purpose. until said leak progresses to too much illegal air and the ECU can not longer hit 800 rpm (duty maxed out)"

-I understand abiut "HIDES laks"..

"the ISC is not used, much on a cold engine, until 150f temps are reached,
thent he ISC wakes up.
imagine the ISC trying hard to fight a stuck open IAC, (impossible that is)
the engine must cross 150f"

-Yes, has to be like this..

"back to cold rpm , after all that is the post. why is my cold rpm too high.
answer,
its normal (my guess is 2000 is ok in alaska, not been there, but that wax pellet does shrink at -40f, I measured it and it does. so.... it will race faster and colder temps. BY DESIGN.
you never once told me out door temps, at 2000rpm ? (some folks live at high altitudes and gets cold there)

-Yes, I think was in the begining of thie foro, if not that is what it does, and sound terrible, knowing the cylinder are still dry of oil.. Or it seems to me..

-Here the temp in winter time is -2º Celcius and only at dawn and rarely but never in the city..

-One of the foreman problem was to avoid to get 2000 r.p.m, but he said me before I left the workshop, it have to be like this when cranking in cold..


"oxygen sensor not above the exhaust manifold but under it..?"

-I see it in all manuals, I¡ll send you a photo of my vitara model.. You put also a metal sheet to protect the clutch wire from the heat of exhaust manifold, I did it too..

"Recap TB swaps"

"old TB had a bad, IAC and bad ISC, so we forget that.

-Ok..

"the mech , should check the TPS GAP. and if wrong set it to spec.
and set throttle cable slack

-Right, maybe he does..


"check spark timing, at 800 hot. (using the freeze jumper clip, at DLC next to battery)
check engine is fully hot, when hot. (gauge it) or scan the ECT sensor for 180F hot. or more. if stat is more..."

-I haven't any device to scan the sensor, I¡ll need an ohmmeter, and you know? this sensor ECT have only one year but my intuition suspect of it from long term, but because is new I forgot it...

"check for vacuum leaks, what i do is block the ISC air hose, (pinch it) and HOT idle will drop to 400 rpm or stall. if idle is high here, YOU HAVE VACUUM leaks big time."

-You see my photo gallery when I did that, so when I pinched that ISC air hose and idle was in hot 1000 r.p.m after start in hot, it come down to 800 r.p.m..
And when I left free agian that air hose it come again to 1000 r.p.m..
But when idle is normalizaad at 800 r.p.m and I pinch that air hose nothing happen, the idle 800 r.p.m continue being 800 r.p.m..

"cold idle does not work at all like hot idle, (think like car has 2 injection systems, or 3, for cranking) the modes are UNIQUE.
the 2000 rpm what if your dash gauge lied.? some do."

-After remove old termostat and flexs its spring and strange "clac, clac" was over, and I replace it agian waiting new termostat to come, the dash gauge is working as always it done during thouse nineteen years, this mean it go up very slowly to get in hot position, it need about 400 meter to make it, because in the last months the dash gauge goes up very fast to the "hot position", it needed only 60 meter to make it..
So that would be that termostat opened very late to pass water to radiator, but this is only my opinion..

And for that, I've been thinking all the time that some sensor was given a false data to ECU, but which ?.. I think also than when start in hot now the idle is not 1000 r.p.m, but 900 r.p.m.. But I have to test this again, because the last time when I was driving was two days ago. I'll see this point again today..

"i use an optical hand head tachometer, that is deadly accurate. the dash gauge is more a toy than and instrument. as is the dash water temp gauge, (no numbers)"
-Yes, any number..

"good luck to you, and do tell me more.... fixing the hard cases are fun. "

-Yes, like Sherlock Holmes's cases, more hard, much better..

we should work only the 2000 rpm issues, and forget all else. , then when solved work to next issue, IMO.....

-Perhaps there is not problem when starting in could go up to almost 2000 r.p.m and in one second come to 1600 r.p.m to continue warms up, all because during all last nineteen years it never did that.. Maximum just 1500 r.p.m then warms up until 800 r.p.m..
But because new Tbi has other system does that..

-The new TBi is the same model than old model, but has a small different detail.. The hex from ISC valve is not 5 mm, but 4,5 mm, I know that because when I was thinking to move it, then I saw this detail, in fact, I recess the allen 5 mm to 4,5 with grinding machine to be ready to do it, but I never did that, you can see it in gallery sealed still whit silicone from Factory..

I'm going to photo gallery now [/color]to put some photos about the spark plugs state NGK after 3000 kms, we can see only one spark plug, but both side, one of them is more dun color than other side.. What do you think about ?

Gettings from Spain!!

[fixkick]

the old engine and parts. old TBI.
might have been running in limphome (suzuki failsafe) mode for years, (most are this old) or running real poorly.
then with a working TBI starts running like a new car and scares the owner. seems it would to me...

the cold started engine does race idle real fast , by design.
it does. the master books do do not document this, only that it is controlled by the wax pellet in the IAC, (discounting dash pot , idle run up and retraction)

case in points:
ISC jammed closed with gunk, (low RPM)
sot the mechanic, opens the bleed, to hide this error.! this extra air adds to the IAC air, cold started, and it will RACE fast cold.....
then a new TB is installed, and the Dutycycle not set! i bet....
nor checking spark timing,
nor checking TPS calibration (its ok, yours is closed at idle)

---

what is HOT RPM with the ISC electric air hose pinched (not water)
this test i do on all EFI engines.
to see just how many air leaks (vacuum) I have.
yours should stall, or run at about 400 rpm and shake hard.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4785' dateline='1446729135']
"the old engine and parts. old TBI.
might have been running in limphome (suzuki failsafe) mode for years, (most are this old) or running real poorly.
then with a working TBI starts running like a new car and scares the owner. seems it would to me..."

-Yes, maybe something about this is possible is happening.

"the cold started engine does race idle real fast , by design.
it does. the master books do do not document this, only that it is controlled by the wax pellet in the IAC, (discounting dash pot , idle run up and retraction)"

-The only way to sent you a video had been by Youtube because I don't know much about informatic subject only a little, that is my first video on it.. You can see the D/P when the engine is cold, during the first three seconds and before D/P retracts is the real moment when the r.p.m are in almost 2000 r.p.m, so you can see and explorer this view..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttGrcCSc...e=youtu.be

-If you can see this video in a right way I'll send you some in cold and in hot but from the dash gauge to see both situation, and the most incredible is that after 20 minutes when the engine is off and you start again, it go directly to 800 r.p.m, but if before that time go to 1000 r.p.m.. I'll send you vídeo..

"case in points:
ISC jammed closed with gunk, (low RPM)"

-New TBI and ISC too, has only about 3000 kilometers so..

"sot the mechanic, opens the bleed, to hide this error.! this extra air adds to the IAC air, cold started, and it will RACE fast cold....."

-Why not, maybe he did that, but I'm not sure, he repeats me always 'don't touch any regulation sealed from Factory'..
What bleed you said? Next to IAC termal wax ? it's cover wuth a rubber cap now because is new, is the same you can see in gallery where we can see ISC and IAC valves view..

"then a new TB is installed, and the Dutycycle not set! i bet....
nor checking spark timing,
nor checking TPS calibration (its ok, yours is closed at idle)"

-Maybe they did not..

"what is HOT RPM with the ISC electric air hose pinched (not water)"

-When the engine is HOT the idle is 800 r.p.m..

-But If I pinch the air hose as you can see also in the photo gallery and when I start the engine in HOT and the idle is about 1000 r.p.m, the idle come down to 800 r.p.m, and if I stop pinching, it return again to 1000 r.p.m..

"this test i do on all EFI engines.
to see just how many air leaks (vacuum) I have.
yours should stall, or run at about 400 rpm and shake hard."

-This is a very interesting test, but I don't know how to get 400 r.p.m in the engine.. Is about pinch that air hose ?..
Explain me how to do it, please..

[fixkick]

the bleed screw (air) is on the top front of the TB, upper half, air horn.
it is just a cone valve. screws, that lets in air, this screw, adjusts duty cycle.

i bet that 180f coolant (in rad) is above 150f after 20min, and IAC is still closed. that is 100% normal.
the factory screws are just 2, main throttle stop. screw, and the ISC side 5mm allen screw.
all other screws are for the service of car and are all covered in the FSM book , not one is a secret but that 2 first screws.
that videos , the audio sounds like engine is misfiring badly..... why? or is this just poor audio, (could be)

this comment i can not understand below.
'But If I pinch the air hose as you can see also in the photo gallery and when I start the engine in HOT and the idle is about 1000 r.p.m, the idle come down to 800 r.p.m, and if I stop pinching, it return again to 1000 '

ok, you start the hot engine. and it might stick at 1000 , but for how long, seconds? 1 min?
but when did pinch it.
wait until its 800 rpm hot, then pinch it, if the RPM does not drop to like 400 and stall you have a huge air leak.
understand there is no air flowing during that pinch except the bleed,
1: ISC is now pinched off, a the air tube (not water)
2: the IAC is closed, 100% if water temp is 3180F, (i use pyro guns to see truth)
3; TV is 99.9% closes, it flows zero air. now.


you have a massive air leak.
not sure where.
but do.
4: the bleed is the air supply now... very little flows here. some does, if 1/2 open or fully. but i cant count your turns open so... guess.
but it must stall.
IF not you have leaks. the above proves that.


the ISC unpinched hot is doing an amazing job hot , trying hard to hide your leak. as ive suspected all along. the 800/1000 jogging hot is the iSC gaining control then loosing it. (leaks big time)
if the mech did his job, read the FSM , he would have seen the duty check and found duty cycle way off , closing the bleed.

again he bleed is here.
this hole has a black rubber plug, remove it. behold the bleed (duty cycle adjuster)

---

EG:
the scope view of duty cycle failing?
would be the SIGNAL is most the time at near 0v , ECU trying in great desperation, to get the idle to spec. RPM but can't , or does rarely.
this shows the mech, that the DUTY is way the heck off. it is shown in the FSM book to set it to 50% hot, on all G16s made.
0v is closed valve. ISC
12v is wide open valve. (modulated)

---

elaborate that pinch test again. please.
start at
HOT.
and 800RPM HOT
then pinch the ISC air hose, what is RPM?
now set bleed closed 100% gently, (turn screw as you pinch it, what is RPM now (stalled is correct answer)) (its not a FACTORY SCREW at all its a standard service point)
law of the west. engine can not run with zero air supply, if it does?, BINGO>.

---

this is a very common failure. on all engines. old.

---

duty signals. (air leaks look like wave top 1 of 3)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ISC/pwm2.jpg

if say the engine runs with ISC air line pinched, (i use a C clamp)
then i then start pinching hoses every where!, to see if one is leaking air . do not skip possible lines that can leak,.... due care looking.
on this 8v engine, all points to the plenum that can leak air are suspect. (aka vacuum leaks)

one guy here, had and EGR that was cracked in half, sucking air. he sent a photo of that, and we said , gee you didnt see that huge crack on the side,? LOL
the EGR can be blocked with a solid gasket at its base. (made by hand or even a Cereal box paper for testing.

ok seen this little horror too.
the mech fails to buy real gaskets on the TB. so fails to block those hole seen here.

http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...view1W.jpg

see those 5 small holes, they must never be unblocked, on a running car.

here is the kit that covers the holes correctly.

http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...ge_19.html

---

if only i could watch you do the pinch test. im sure your doing it right.
but????
what is rpm after the pinch. ?

the 800 and 1000 rpm , forget this, its just the ECU cant control ISC, as is all so common with air leaks. forget it.
concentrate on the ISC pinch, do it step by stem and report RPMs...
in your mind, imagine all air supplies end, and imagine it stalling... or almost stalls...
ive never done a ISC pinch with the bleed backed off 100%. so it might run at 400 rpm and shake hard the engine.

---

did the mech use the right base gaskets? or just used RTV?
the devil really is in the details.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4792' dateline='1446757119']
"the bleed screw (air) is on the top front of the TB, upper half, air horn.
it is just a cone valve. screws, that lets in air, this screw, adjusts duty cycle."

-Yes, it's that I mean..

"that videos , the audio sounds like engine is misfiring badly..... why? or is this just poor audio, (could be)"

- I think are the engine vibration the camera is on the dashboard.. But in the next videos you can hear them much better..
-I made two video more, in cold and in hot, and some comments about when cranking in hot. There are other man looking it also, he'e name is Pancho I saiy him good morning in Spanish, I say you that to not confuse about languages.. You don't need say nothing in that videos as an answer, how you prefer..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4u_cUE408

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0upbhK9lA

-Today, I replaced the new thermostat, you can see photo in gallery later, and I replaced a new air hose in ISC valve, so the vitara working better, the engine sound better and reprise is better too, but the problem continue the same, as you can see in the video when the engine in hot..

"this comment i can not understand below.
'But If I pinch the air hose as you can see also in the photo gallery and when I start the engine in HOT and the idle is about 1000 r.p.m, the idle come down to 800 r.p.m, and if I stop pinching, it return again to 1000 '"

-Did you see that photo in gallery when I'm pinching the ISC air hose ? Well, when I start the engine in hot and the idle is close to 1000 r.p.m, then, I pinch ISC air hose with my finger, and the idle come down to 800 r.p.m as normal OK, But after two second or three pinching, I release that air hose by removing my fingers and the idle come again to 1000 rpm..
But when the idle is normalized i.e 800 r.pm, if I pinch that ISC air hose again nothing anormal happen the idle continue to 800 r.p.m..


"ok, you start the hot engine. and it might stick at 1000 , but for how long, seconds? 1 min?"

-All the time, the neddle is held in that position, never ccome down from that position, only if you give a little bit to the foot pedal it come down to 800 r.p.m, you can see very well in the second video. Althouh since I removed and replaced again the old thermostat waiting to the new one, the idle become 900 r.p.m now..

"but when did pinch it."

- When the engine in hot and idle is close to 1000 r.p.m. then it come down to 800 r.p.m but when I release my fingers from that air hose the idle rises to 1000 r.p.m agian, this is the same answer I told you above, but just in case, not problem to repeat it again..


"wait until its 800 rpm hot, then pinch it, if the RPM does not drop to like 400 and stall you have a huge air leak.
understand there is no air flowing during that pinch except the bleed, "

- I understand, what do you want to mean, so if I pinch when the engine is hot and idle is 800 r.p.m it have to drop to 400 r.p.m more or less ?
-Incredible!! Because I think as I told yoy above when I pinch it nothing happen about, and the idle continue in 800 rp.m, that is very interesting too..
-Tomorrow morning I'm going to test that agian, of course.. Its half past nine p.m now..

1: ISC is now pinched off, a the air tube (not water)
2: the IAC is closed, 100% if water temp is 3180F, (i use pyro guns to see truth)
3; TV is 99.9% closes, it flows zero air. now.

-Yes, as it should be, of course.. I'm understood that very well..

"you have a massive air leak.
not sure where.
but do."

-Yes, probably like a tunnel, rather a huge tunnel.. Yesterday, I check all hoses, and I couldn't find any leaks, only the ISC air hose that we are speaking about pinch, but it's replaced today and the problem in hot continue being the same.. I have also new vacuum hoses to replace all of them

"if the mech did his job, read the FSM , he would have seen the duty check and found duty cycle way off , closing the bleed."

-That bleed idle screw is open about three turns before reaching the end, I saw that cone in the old TBI..

"again he bleed is here.
this hole has a black rubber plug, remove it. behold the bleed (duty cycle adjuster)"

-Yes, it's the same what I say with the rubber plug..


"elaborate that pinch test again. please.
start at
HOT.
and 800RPM HOT
then pinch the ISC air hose, what is RPM?"
now set bleed closed 100% gently, (turn screw as you pinch it, what is RPM now (stalled is correct answer)) (its not a FACTORY SCREW at all its a standard service point)"

--I'll do it tomorrow and I'll tell you what happened exactly. The ISC air hose is new I replaced it this afternoon.. So, when that hose is pinch I set the bleed screw 100 % closed gently, then I'll see what is the r.p.m. or what happen then, but I think that if ISC air hose is pinched and bleed idle screw is closed, so the engine switched off, or not ?
-Yes, I know this screw has not problem to regulate idle, today, I turn a bit it because after I replaced the new thermostat 88º C, the idle rises to 850 r.p.m so I set again to 800 r.p.m.. By the way, the old thermostat was to work to 82º C
-You can see photos in the gallery of them and some details..

law of the west. engine can not run with zero air supply, if it does?, BINGO>.

-Yes, as every living thing, of course..

"this is a very common failure. on all engines. old."

-I see..

"duty signals. (air leaks look like wave top 1 of 3)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ISC/pwm2.jpg"

-High and low idle, I see too..


"if say the engine runs with ISC air line pinched, (i use a C clamp)
then i then start pinching hoses every where!, to see if one is leaking air . do not skip possible lines that can leak,.... due care looking.

-I'll do too.. But ISC air hose is new and of good quality, I'll do also pinch test with it using a clamp because is more hard than the old one..

"on this 8v engine, all points to the plenum that can leak air are suspect. (aka vacuum leaks"

-I don't understand the word "plenum" but I think it's about hose and pipe system or there are something else more as gasket and like that ?..


"one guy here, had and EGR that was cracked in half, sucking air. he sent a photo of that, and we said , gee you didnt see that huge crack on the side,? LOL
the EGR can be blocked with a solid gasket at its base. (made by hand or even a Cereal box paper for testing."

--I was thinking to ask you about EGR system, but you did it before than me, Then, would be the EGR system involved in air leaks because exahust extra in the engine ? I opened it a years ago to clean the soot, but there was not any part blocked, I put a new gasket where the EGR joins to TBI with the two screws..
-I'm going to open it again to sse and to clean it if necessary


"ok seen this little horror too.
the mech fails to buy real gaskets on the TB. so fails to block those hole seen here."

-The gasket base of my old TBI was made by hand, the mechanic showed me it. That could be when I took the vitara to other workshop about ten years ago, and they put the first TBI from the scrap with TBI screws sealed in yellow color, I have remembered after, maybe they replaced the old thermostat made in Spain too, but the vitara passed the Technical Inspection always until the last years..


http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...view1W.jpg

"see those 5 small holes, they must never be unblocked, on a running car."

-When the TBI new came fron Santana it was complete but without the gasket bottom so we had to wait almost a week more to bring that gasket from Santana to set the TBI on the engine.. For that I think that gasket is blocked thouse holes.. I hope so..


"if only i could watch you do the pinch test. im sure your doing it right.
but????
what is rpm after the pinch. ?"

-800 r.p.m when the idle is normalized, anyway, I'm going to test it tomorrow..

-Last time when start the engine in hot and the idle was closed to 1000r.p.m as you can see in the second video, and I pinched that air hose idle come drop to 800 r.p., but when I release my fingers idle rises again to 1000 r.p.m, but I'm going to test it agian very attentive..

"the 800 and 1000 rpm , forget this, its just the ECU cant control ISC, as is all so common with air leaks. forget it."

-I'll do it..

concentrate on the ISC pinch, do it step by stem and report RPMs...

-I'll do it too..

"in your mind, imagine all air supplies end, and imagine it stalling... or almost stalls..."

-I hope that event..

"ive never done a ISC pinch with the bleed backed off 100%. so it might run at 400 rpm and shake hard the engine."

-And is possible the engine turn off ? Without any air supplies the engine can't breathe..

did the mech use the right base gaskets? or just used RTV?

-We were waiting a week to bring a new TBI gasket bottom from Santana to finish the work..

-Did you see in the gallery the spark plug ? You can sse thermostat and about oxygen sensor in the gallery..

"the devil really is in the details."

-He uses a microscope to make his job very well and in detail..