Plugs have red oily stain and misfire

[fixkick]

the tinting, here in state side, is regulated heavy.
they do not allow , non taxed fuel in the road. (big fines, if caught)

on your island the rules may be only the whim if the fuel processor. gosh knows.? (EPA here says it has special rules for PR)

im not suspecting the fuel is bad, just was making sure its red and is not in the crankcase.
i dont have drawing on your HEAD, is the head fitted with a fuel pump (diaphram) like Samurai's. had before EFI?>
the fuel pump is a diaphram pump and when it cracks it fills the crankcase with fuel, and if fuel is red the oil turns red.
this was true from 1920s to 1988 in the USA, on all engines with carbs. fir 68 years. of this happening. (history)
on my cars, i put an electric fuel pump near the tank, this ends the oil with fuel issue and stops vapor lock in its tracks.

the valve guides bad, will suck oil into the combustion chamber. (vacuum does that )
then there is red fungus in the gas.... seen that too.... (starts with water in fuel)

also carbs have their tricks
the float valve sticks , just 1 tiny particle of dust, and lands on the seat and bam the float valve sticks open , float level goes way high and spills fuel
into the engine, like water fall. and floods it and past rings to crankcase. (turning oil red with red fuel.)
on my motorcycles, this failure shoots fuel to the dirt. (the carb overflow tube is pointing to mother earth.) but not your car.

i see your head, (FSM) it has a mech fuel pump on rear of head on a housing,,,, id get a new one. if 28 years old.
USA EPA laws dont regulate, PR laws. it seems.
Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth of the US and has a mixed legal system.

i suspect 2 problems., not uncommon on 28 yo cars.

this red line shows the path of red fuel , running to crankcase..... Classic Carb cars. failure mode.

---

on some cars, (i have one)
the pump leaks, out the pump side. and on to the distributor. and BOOM. (i moved mine to tank area)
but if engine stops fuel stops..... so its not all bad....

the tachometer driven , electric pump works good. (DIY made , and works like EFI), but must crank engine to prime pump and carb....

---

i used to run purple engine oil back in 1964.
at the union 76 stations, called, "royal purple" then. (hard to believe huh?)
so even today there is bs tinted oil, to make folks happy, and more.....
so when you see red oil , what does it mean?..... well drain the crankcase oil and look?

gas in the oil , thins it and invites bearing failure. (or ring seizures) far worst than any fouled spark plug.
it be all over red oil, like tick on a hound dog....

---

if i had a nickle for every float valve that stuck, id be rich.
my twin carb cars, i had to pull over many times and rap the carb with screw driver handle.. tap tap, ahhhhh, back in business....
or way off road on dirt bike and bam, same deal,same cure.. "black cloud"

[zukitrek]

Thanks so much as always. Maybe we innocently discovered something cause you are right. I read that in /arizona for example yes, gas is Red for off road use only and is not taxed. Why? Cause they don't use or transit state roads ( in a perfect world) then they don't have to pay taxes cause it does not affect road quality and they stay in better shape longer. My guess is that that gas color is the regular versions. Why? Who knows? Ill get premium gas from Puma tomorrow and check again. Only four major brands here: Shell, Gulf, Puma and Total. And 2 locals, Eccomax and Toral (copying Total in a way, brand wise).

I can drain the oil and quickly check? I had changed the oil recently. So if there was gas it should be there now. Also, maybe removing pump I could see if its red inside after the gasket. My guess is that aux valve holder, cause then all 4 sparks would be red somehow. In this CVCC head design the ignition occurs in this tiny chamber where gas from a smaller runner and the spark ignites then this ignites the fuel coming from the 2 intake valves. I found a donor head in the 8v version but same aux holder. But if oil gets in that chamber for whatever reason then it would not burn the gas and hence the misfire and hence the color right, cause it would be mixing with the oil getting in?

Ok Ill keep you posted.

Javier

[fixkick]

the gas color is totally in the control of EPA here, and taxes. (both state and fed tax) in places not controlled by these 3 laws, the oil companies are free to do as they best wish.
as you say tint the different octane rated fuels, in S. America we have up to 4 Octane fuels, at the pump,, 1,2,3,4, at the push of a button, so they dont bother creating 4 colors.
farmers here dont pay the road tax. (why would they?)
and Av gas is colored. ( you dont want to get in to a plane with car fuel, right? so its tinted for safety and if you put it in your car, that is illegal here... (if caught)
they do the same on diesel, as if you get caught running #2 heating oil, you go to jail. ! (fines to the max really)

the pump can be tested for cracked diaphram just like all devices with one.
using the hand vacuum pump... at the fuel output port. and the input port blocked. (1/2 minute standard rule. no leaking down......) do it at 8 inches vacuum,.. not 26.

the CVCC head is just more ways to fail.... more valves. more seals to fail.
if the oil is red, in the crankcase , then you have gas in the oil, find it and fix that..... this is a failure unrelated to the spark plug fouling but was the 1st clue.
carb overflow, or fuel pump leaks. (there is no other paths for gas, just 2,, to hit the crankcase)

if the oil is clean. then (drain it out, look at it and put it bacK) or remove filter, drain it, look for RED? and put it back>?
the dip stick end might be red but you already know how it looks.
the engine my now be free of gasoline as it will boil off when driven.. but will be red in color.

once the red oil causes are known, then we can work the head.
if the oil shows no signs of RED. in the crankcase, then all that red is the fuel misfiring in the combustion chamber and building up...
but why is there oil in the combustion chamber, and soaking the spark plug with oil...... that is an other symptom.
1:misfire.
2: oil on spark plug
3: carbon on spark tip insulator (black) bad...
4: red tint in oil, on spark plug...


the chicken and the egg, issues.
what if the spark was bad. (for any reason on this single cylinder only) pick one.... (wire , plug,wrong plug, gapped wrong, bad cap,)
then the spark plug fouls.... usually they just get wet not fouled, from the unburned gas.s, but if the misfire is intermittent or weak it will eventually foul. and not drip oil.
usually its black soot and dripping fuel raw.. (not like yours looks like)

case 2
oil ingress to that cylinder. (combustion chamber) and plug fouls. drips oil. but why is oil red.....

IN the old days of Tetraethyl lead , leaded fuel the spark parts turned red with LEAD. even carb sides turned red them,,,, im showing my age now.... but that is normal. back then.
this is 2015, and we dont have red fuel nor LEAD, but you do.....

if the head is bad. buy a true rebuilt from a pro shop. top shops know how to make this complex head work.
or get a car that has no such magic..... (Toyota )
i read that Honda, hand no car that he CVCC would fit, so tested the new engine in a Nissan, (Dat-sun) now that is funny.
the only true advantages( MPG) and can run leaded fuel, so you can use both in that year) is true. it did when the MPG war then,..... 4 years running.

the honda CCVC allowed honda to pass smog with no CAT 1971+. when the law changes, (tighter) EFI was born. ( but was horrid then due to lack of real microprocessors..)
CCVC costs way more then any CAT. and adds unneeded complexity. )but ran both fuels..!!! some folks at this time hand no unleaded in their towns...


there it is , just lots more parts to fail or leak or leak oil.

---

evidence,. to diagnose any car, the person doing the work, gathers as much evidence that he/she can. (lots of looking and testing)


that is why i dont like the red oil seen, i scratch head and see red fuel, huh? where'd that come from, ok shell.
but why is red oil in my head, i think, I wonder if the fuel pump is dumping, raw fuel to my crankcase as all these cars did back then, just wait and see, they all do.
all diaphragms all crack, that is what they do... in time...
think of the torture it gets. stroking over and over endlessly. running.
this is nothing new. and is always in back of mind... something to be on the alert to , on old carb cars. (some dont have it, but yours does)
you can swap plugs side to side, see if the fouling follows the plug the the spark hole.
swap spark wires.
put on a new cap. if not new already. (the can have hidden carbon tracking is the core of it) (seen caps do things, magic like, looks ok but is not ok....many....)

most old cars, i can take 2 hours and find 10 things wrong.
easy.
to me, if I cant drive it cross country, it's not a car.... so... (its a town beater....? with AAA tow car in glove box...)

[fixkick]

finding rebuilt parts on very old cars can be hard. (i see valves. only for this part, no other parts.. sold, or very very hard to find)
in some cases sending the head far away, and waiting forever to get it back.
the delays can be long due to lack of parts. many of these sub parts are not made now... (actual valve yes)

does not the whole CvcC valve assembly just unscrew as one part?
seems so on some years.
and can not you find a good used one, and put it in>?? (looking on ebay, none there.... omg rare)
im presuming the damage is limited to this assembly (cvcc valve screw in part?)



off the wiki"
Some of the early CVCC engines had a problem with the auxiliary valves retaining collars vibrating loose. Once unscrewed, engine oil would leak from the valvetrain into the pre-combustion chamber, causing a sudden loss of power and massive amounts of smoke to emanate from the exhaust pipe. The condition simulated a blown engine, even though the needed repair was quite simple. Honda eventually came up with a fix involving metal retaining rings that slipped over the collars and prevented them from backing out of their threads."

[zukitrek]

Yes gas color is totally unrelated to spark oil problem. Thanks for all the info. Revealing age is also no problem. i wish I could be like you and a lot of people I know that even after "retirement" are always doing something and keeping the mind in use. I think I found the aux valve holders from a donor head along with ignition and fuel pump. Yes they unscrew making the removal very easy without removing head. And yes they are no longer available. In the days they were $20 a piece. Pump and gasket are the same as at least 10 years, never replaced. But I guess all sparks would show some red color, but no, cause oil is not getting in them just cylinder 2. So my guess is problem is here:

   

You see most of my red oil is in the thread of the spark. Reason? Maybe fuel which comes from the top (green arrows) gets mixed with oil coming in from bad seal-valve guide-o-ring-copper washer etc. So Ill drain oil, remove pump and do a visual inspection then report to you.


Have a great day.

[fixkick]

each cvcc valve can fail many ways.
the valve seat leaks, stick open. or suck a valve and drop ....then spring flies off...
or the stem leaks oil. and would not effect the others.
sure red fuel can mix with the amber oil, leaking at the cvcc funky valve stem( or?). and mix and turn red. at point of mix and when it started misfiring all that mixing stacks up. sure!
but I never assume that. i look at my sump oil, first. ( mind set old engine, not 2005)
im no fan of honda's (bikes, yes) i don't like CVCC anything nor open deck blocks. (cylinders cantilevered off base of water jackets, are no good. imo)
like seen here.
http://honda-tech.com/classic-hondas-106...s-2987623/

but i bet they love them there... LOL

id ask them to sell you a good used one, I would......!!!!

but i bet if you find others , with this engine, parts used can be found. (id post a WTB there) wanted to by.... wanted alive. not dead.

---

is that not an O-ring under the CVCC assembly? i see one there.... or copper, or?
one more rare part, if not 0-ring.
i looked at oem parts, but non of the 1985 (oldest) shows this part. others yes.... but not this... odd that...

[zukitrek]

Oil is not red. Will send you pics later. Had it drained and looked at. Hahaha!! Thats a user from your link
http://honda-tech.com/classic-hondas-106...s-2987623/ is from Redpepper honda group. He had some parts to sell but he never retuned my messages, probably thinking PR is at the other side of the world or just did note care. We love Hondas and Suzukis and Rx7 Mazda's. Huge racing culture here that modify these cars. But my little engine is getting way behind so finding parts is very hard.

Regards!!

[fixkick]

good, so its just one problem ! cvcc sucking oil like a Hoover...
id post begging for a spare assembly. just 1.
surely someone has a cracked useless head with 4 good ones....somewhere.

[zukitrek]

Yes here in PR. A guy has the 8v version with all 4, including another gas pump and ignition. Lets see how it turns out. But doing the reverse logic. if only that spark is getting red and all four live inside that small chamber of each cylinder (like you see in the picture you sent) we could strongly deduce that the problem is most likely that aux valve, right.

Here the oil pics.

   

   

   

---

Here pics of the contact of the dizzy cap. Not OEM but made in japan, no china crap, like I had in the Vitara.

   

   

   

   

[m35]

first time i've seen red fuel....




car servicing