(11-19-2015, 10:17 PM)fixkick Wrote: the pinch test.
hot engine.
1/2 the air for 800 rpm power, comes from ISC
and 1/2 the bleed. (when duty is at 50%)
there are no other air supplies

Complety agreed with you

armed with those facts.
you can pinch the ISC, if RPM does not, cut in half,(1/2) or stall?, then at the same time ,turn the BLEED CW. (closing this last supply of air)
the RPM MOST FALL to 400 or stall. if not? there IS A LEAK (vacuum)

Yes, that was what happened the needle stopped in the white line next to the 0 in gauge toy, but in the last viseo we are complety agreed there are a hurricane air leak..

usually when you have say a small air leak (vacuum) and idle is too high


Yes, gauge toy confused me, I know that now..

and you start turning the bleed screw CW, at some point the ISC wakes up(its not pinched now) and idle Locks in at 800rpm , regulating.
The bleed screw can hide some small leaks, (with in the range of the bleed, and ISC)
but most leaks get worse in time, and above is just a band-aid to nowhere...

Yes, you told me that cheating in ECM before, I don't forget it..

---

once i get an engine running right ,not misfiring, or bogging, i do this test (pinch) and bleed checks,per above
before doing any duty cycle tests or precision spark timing. (timing needs idle near 800 +freeze jumper)
if there are no major leaks , i then do the duty cycle calibration and for sure, on all new Throttle-bodies.

I must to find the hurricane in the vitara and after that will be see about duty cicle, I'm going to take the vitara to mechanic and do again the same ari leak test with him, to konw what he think about, if nothing to do with the mechanic, I'll open all parts if is necessary, of course..

and we have a cheap meter that works now. off ebay.
i just tested it from 5v to 18v and a wide ranges of ISC frequencies (or is 200hZ) it works great.

A man from another Forum sent me this model, he said you use it too, I met you and this Forum because he sent me some Fixkick pages of you, and for that I registered in your Forum, afortunately, of course too..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/331500832195

But I can't buy it in dolars, only in euros, but I'll try to get one like this..

keep in mind all 8v engines make full power, with vacuum leaks, the engine might scream and make huge power when the iSC looses control.

(11-21-2015, 12:40 AM)fixkick Wrote: yes, they did sell carb cars in Europe. in 1996, (not one here, they are all illegal here starting about 1988) last carb here...1994 (Light truck) : Isuzu[11]
the TBI is no a carb. there is no relationship at all, from a CARB to TBI. zero.
TBI is just single injector , injection but the injectors is in the Throttle body, , our 1996 is MPI port injected x4. all are here. every one.

Yes, I knew was another different system, injector, ISC, IAC, and of course the ECU, but about mixture air-fuel I din't know exactly, that's OK now..


the butterfly name is pure mechanical engineering, name for a valve that when removed looks like a butteryfly,
butterfly valve, (aka in the car world as the throttle plate, etc)
back in the olden days, all carb books called it the butterfly valve. why? because we removed it and cleaned it and it looks like a yellow butterfly removed.
it's brass colored, yellow. when you open that valve, the engine receives maximum air, it is in fact just an AIR VALVE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_valve
on your car, the TV (butterfly ) is 100% (99.9%) closed at idle and supplies 0 air, nada.

The TBI is brass colored too, is the same engineering that throttlr valve.. Have including a monument in water pipes Induetries, is very curious..



if you just do 2 things, this proves it:
pinch the ISC air hose, and turn the bleed screw CW, as you turn the screw, bleed, the air goes to zero and engine must stall.
must stall or you have leaks.
that is all there is to leaks tests.
Math:?
all-air = ISC + bleed. (Algebra) HOT. (at idle)
all-air = 0 + 0 ( there is no air at all, engine can NOT RUN with 0 air.) the first zero is the pinch, the 2nd zero is the bleed closed CW.
see my math here/?

Yes, I have understood that, in the last test pinching ISC air hose, and clossing bleed screw to the end, the engine continued running, don't stall, for that have to be a leak..

the videos all say private. with sad face in player....
ok we work leaks next?

I'm sorry about..
Today, I'm going to see to my brother to send videos in a correct way.. But my videos in YouTube are for the public not in a private way, so I don't know what happening..



my thinking now (you never told me why the old TB was bad,,,,,,)"the word "scraping" alludes me as to what that was) sorry....
MAYBE the old TB works, ok.?

1º- The old TBI during long time working as normal, but it began to failure, that was what happened, when started in could r.p.m were 800, and in hot was very difficult to balanced the idle, consume a lot of fuel, smeaalling very bad, and doesn't passed Technical Inspection..

2º-So the mechanic got another TBI in a scrapping of cars where there are so mny cars to sell to scrap industries, and they remove some parts to sell to everybody, particular person or workshops cars ..

3º- But that old TBI faillure also, when started in could idle was about 1000 r-p-m, no more, and when the engine in hot and the idle was in traffic light or in traffic jam, the idle increased at 1500 r.p.m and never droped to 800 r.p.m..


because your mechanic does not know how to DISCOVER
1 vacuum leaks?
2 prove it leaks (pinch tests) ISC check , duty checks.
3 and what exactly is leaking. (lots of test or smoke machine)
4: has no idea how nor why Dutycycle must be checked first (old TB) and set on the NEW TB..

[color=#C71585]Yes, I'll ask him these question and more..
You know the mechanic is a good man but he's very stressed, his son told me 'my father are heart problem, he want to do everything to satisfy all clients '..
His workshop is always full of cars.. He forgot to fix a srew fron the plastic cap above the TBI, and I found other screw above the battery, it was the screw that is supporting the fuel metal pipe that come from the fuel tank and connect to TBI with two screw, it's fixed with a ring rubbert..
I also found above the battery the bleed rubber plug..

But what to do? At least he got the new TBI to half price, he's uncle of a friend long, he has good intention to do everything but some time faillure because want to do everything very fast..
I took the vitara there because he's the only has Suzuki OBD.. When I went to ask in another workshop, they don't have Suzuki OBD..

there is a huge vacuum running, there in the plenum (plenum = induction system below the TB throttle plate)
and all leaks there, suck air. and all leaks there, cause the ISC to go nuts. (now or soon as all leaks never fix themselves; they get worse)

Yes, I asked him about new base TBI gasket, he said he put the right gasket blocking the five holes in the plenum, but I'm not sure, I'll open it if is necessary, of courese

Reasons to replace a TB are: (what was yours?)
1: IAC bad. (RIP one TB) (can not be replaced, as a sub assembly)


[color=#800080]Ye, it's integrated in TBI.

2: injector bad, replace it. not TB.
3: ISC bad, replace it , not TB,.
4: throttle bore damaged, due to TB butteryfly plate set wrong.
5: throttle shafts worn so bad at TB butterfly shaft ,the suck air. (just like carbs did for 100 years ,same reason) can cause #4
6: gross ice damage, yes, water freezes and wrecks anything...
7a: something broke off TB, a nipple or?
8: dash pot bad, yes, those can be very hard to find...

(11-26-2015, 12:06 AM)fixkick Wrote: tracheotomy , very funny this,, thanks, made my day.

Welcome, we have to laugh when the work is hard..

and i saw your photo of you palm, with red rings, (sorry) and stalling engine that way, did it? one guy here last year, did that and engine ran....
example
ok engine runs good.
isc pinch engine runs so i starve engine with bleed, still runs (bad hard fail here) and if the palm test fails, to stall engine, the intake manifold has leaks.
so,, i then block the brake booster.

Well. when I took that palm ring photo the engine didn't stall, but today the engine stall very fast, I'll tell you why, but before I'll answer your questions and details..

i then(no order here but must do them all) I pinch all hoses. all vsv hard vacuum plenun side hoses. all hoses can be pinched or corked up, and rpm fails to drop.
if RPM drops that hose leaks air.

All thuse hoses are new, they have two weeks only..

EGR body or gasket not leaking fresh air, (vacuum here) sucking air.

EGR is clean with spray to carburator, I instaledl a new gasket, and it has new hoses to modulator SVS and SVS to intake manifold too..

map sensor hose not leaking or map nipple broken off. sucking air.

That Absolute Pressure has new hose, it has a small filter..

IAT sensor broken sucking air.


That sensor is new too, it has about two month only..

PCV leaking , (means above the spec, orifice amount (tiny) means not crack pcv or hose, or wrong PCV.

I test that PVC, it sound 'clac, clac', and its hose is new, but I'm waiting a new PVC, next Monday it will come..

some guy put a 3speed A/T intake (i cant for life of may know what transmission is on your car,

The vitara is manual trasmission..

last last last, intake manifold cracked. (has to be if all the above do not leak air) the hard way.. but proven...

I have considered that possibility too..

but in this case its easy.
you did the tests. and you have a leak (vacuum leak) but we dont know why exactly
and like most leaks it will not get better, they get worse. mostly.

Yes, you told me that, is not easy to find them..


and if say you had a tiny, air leak, say this tiny crack in a hose that by fate seem not to get worse
the ISC will hide that error. and correct it, i can do that very easy, and duty rises above 50% is the only clue...... hidden from view.

i said all that because other dont wont to fix it ,just hide it.... and can be done for a while... if not excessive..... i think yours is excessive.
the engine sucks 400cc of air, every 180degress of crank rotation, somehow there is leak allowing that much air or 1/2.... and runs.... like magic.

Yes, "magic" that is the right wod in this case, you can see below why I say that..

for sure you are on track. (no pun)

please fill out your signature.... i have trouble keeping it in my old 68yo brain.... sorry.

You are still very yojung, my aunt has almost 95..
I 61, a boy like you, of course..

Vitara JLK Santana - G16A - 8 valves, doors?, 4wd? 3/4/5? speed transmission.


Yes, JLK Santana - G16A - 8 valves- 3 doors- 4wd - 5 speed - manual trasmission - A/C..


all hoses can be pinched.
except (2) the brake booster, it has a metal pipe and very hard hose. (so i CORK it,or use rubber stopper) remove cork restart , retest.

I'll do that test too, I'll block the nozzle where that booster hose is connected to the intake manifold ..


the map is also tricky if you pinch it the map can read 0" vacuum and engine goes way rich and slows.. fooling you.
so on the map sensor i never pinch that. hose. make sure the plenum side sucks air pulled a second, that hose is not cracked?, then make sure the map sensor is not cracked

I'll do it too, although that hose is new, and the mechac cheked that sensor too..

The plenum side sucks very well, that nozzle is not clogged..


i use my handy dandy hand vacuum tool and pump up by hand say 10 inches HG vacuum and see that it holds there.. ok ,NO leaks on the map side.
this is what i do... to find all air leaks, besides pinching.
in the end the "processes of elimination" proves what is bad, last , is a true manifold leak, gaskets or cracks. or even a loose manfold on the the.

But I don't have vacuum tool, anyway, all will depend what happen with the last changes you are going to know at once..

i skipped TV stuck open because its not. and is new.
a good mech , once the leaking air is seen.... all tests are like 1 hours work, blocking hoses etc. and working directly to the true cause.

That right, maybe he did that, but you still don't know that we have a misterious surprise in this case, wait a second I'll tell you right now..


and last ordering a new intake gasket , and he then does the text book is my manifold or head warped test.

Well, today I went to the mech with my tools to remove the new TBI to see if it has installed on the bottom its right gasket, then the mech told me he asked to the Land Sur 4X4 shop, if they had brought him the correct gasket to the new TBI, and they told that was the correct bottom gasket..
So the mech said me he will call to Santana foreman to have an appoinment to send him all OBD parameters and details about bad idle when start in hot with a new TBI, and the foreman will find the true problem then we know what exactly is happening, but that have to be the next Monday..

So I went at home, but because I was intrigate about if that gasket was wrong or not, I decided remove the TBI on my own..
So I saw that the ridht gasket was installed (you can see that work in the photo gallery), that gasket has three hole only, one is to the idle bleed. other to IAC and one more to coolant, not more, and the five holes are also blocked, you can see also in that photo the new gasket I bought three days ago, is the same, you can see that gasket in the second photo, still install in the TBI, where we can see the metal throttle too..

So, that bottom gasket was the correct, but because I have two old TBI I have one ISC because the otrer was cut and you have a photo of it, then I removed the new ISC and I installed the old ISC, then and to our surprise, the problem when start in hot ended for the moment..
You can see the video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDm4A3bECaY&feature=youtu.be

I hope you can sse it..

Do you remember when I wanted to regulate ISC with a hex allen 4,5 milimeters ? Because you can regulate the old TBI with an allen 5 milimeters, but the new TBI hex is more small, but the mech told me 'don't touch it', and you told me that was very difficult to regulate ISC, and on the other hand I don't wanted to do that, but my intuition said me 'that hex is the true problem'..
But if that ISC came from Santana Factory calibrate, for what to move it? That was very reasonable, what to do then ?..
But inside me my intuition continue 'remove the silicone seal and turn it', but..
Blaise Pascal said "Our heart knows things that our mind don't know"..

Once installed the old TBI the vitara running very differnet, much better, of course, I did the true test in the fuel pump, when I had to start the engine in hot again, and it was as the vitara had made over the years, the video shows that start in hot..
Then, this morning I did a new air test, bloking with my hand the mean air entrance, and the engine stalls very fast, but after that test, I did the same air test but not by the mean entrance, but as you told me pinching ISC air hose, but in this case, I removed that air hose from ISC and bloked it in its end, then I blocked the ISC nozzle with my finger and with the other hand I closed the bleed gently, but the engine run very slowly but didn't stall..

So, Mein entrance blocked with my hand, the engine stall very fast..
Then, ISC air hose removed and blocked in its end, ISC nozzle blocked with my finger, and bleed closed to the end, the engine don't stall..
Perhaps, as you said PVC tiny air entering?..

So I went to the mech to tell him what happened, and he saw all about, he said maybe the ISC is calibrated in a differnet way, as a different dssign, then he told me 'come on Monday to regulate ISC with OBD to do duty cycle again, but with the new TBI after removed its silicone seal that come from the Santana..
Then, that mean those TBI DESIGN are from different model ? Because I saw a link gasket you sent me from TBI bottom and the vitara A/T has the same gasket than M/T..

The mech has two OBD, the old Santana and the OBD ||, but he's using the old one, he repaired many vitara with it..
I'll be there to see everything about..

Anyway, I'll see what happen after regulate ISC and seE also how the vitara running, and of course to pass the Technical Inspection C02..
That's all for the moment..

We are very near to discover the devil's assistent in this case..
You can see some new photos in the gallery, including "two little cows", to enjoy you with them..

We in touch and cheers!!