(11-20-2019, 02:13 AM)TomPrestin Wrote: Quick response before I have to step into work-  did a lot of reading through the the site yesterday, noticed that standard plenum vacuum at hot idle should be 20 inHg, mine is stable at 8..  so I may have a vac leak somewhere, probably contributing.  I have a new VSV2, and nothing under the hood is "custom" I've gone to great lengths to make all the mechanical components as original as possible.  Header was cracked bad, currently running a doug thorley, no funky tube, goes directly to Cat inlet.  Cat hangs from rubber grommets so I'm sure it is bouncing around a bit, also maybe contributing.  my scanner will log/save so I'll pull down the info and post.  thank you!!  I'll update again asap

(11-20-2019, 06:17 PM)TomPrestin Wrote: todays information- then questions.  fyi I'm getting paranoid that I'm destroying an engine I spent the last 2 years hunting down parts for.

old header was cracked, thrown out. new thorley header does have EGR port.  looked extensively tonight at all vac hoses/connections, and header, all are connected correctly and don't see any leak points.  

Scanner does freeze-frame when coded-  freeze frame from today says:
DTC Code: P0400
Fuel System1 status: CL
Fuel System2 status: ...      (not sure if this is applicable or not, but its listed in the frame)
Calculated LOAD Value: 19.6%
Engine Coolant Temp: 177f
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: -1.6%
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: 1.6%
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure: 8.7 inHg   (this is the EGR BARO RELATIVE sensor, NOT A MAP and NOT ABSOLUTE BARO at all. ) same as  hand tool gauge does!
throttle is open (too bad freeze frames do not show all sensors. sadly)
Test B needs at least 22"HG vacuum (rel) 0.75bar so the above is TEST A.  the above  is the  cruise test. failing. (it commanded the VSV valve open and closed and the change on BAR failed (differential test it ) it tells us only 2 things EGR main is dead, or the Exh path is blocked. (we do more tests to learn which of the 2 it is.
the only clues as to TEST A or B are the vacuum readings, high vacuum is B , lower is A, cruise.

Engine RPM: 2547
Vehicle Speed: 49mph

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Doesn't say anything about EGR A or B.  seems like something is missing.. you and me both.  (that is correct only the numbers give it away)
yes the factory dealer scan tool has button to press to get A or B cause we dont have  that in OBD2 tool land, so vacuum it the KEY to what  is UP.

I took multiple other snapshots tonight while driving and then arrived home basic info listed here.  not sure if it will offer any insight but I'm at a loss on it.  especially the low vac pressure:

 DRIVING
SnapShot1:
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: 0.8%
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure:  15.6 inHg 
(this is  not normal MAP sensor it is EGR MDP sensor and uses relative reading) noW I Know you dont own a vacuum tool (first time)
Here is the true output MDP,     https://fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/EGR-map-test.html
At WOT, (or just keyon) Absolute pressure is~ 29" HG or 1 BAR  (sea level all) ( this is normal at sea level , air pressing down on you an car and MDP)
At idle , Absolute, is at 19" or 0.64bar
now we do , relative pressure, is against , actual atmospheric pressure. of 1bar.  R = 1Bar Absolute(now) minus reading) this is what a hand tool does, this.Relative.

so WOT is 0BAR  (1 minus 1 = 0) math. very different readings.  for sure. than above.
idle is  1bar minus,  .64bar and = .36 bar,  and .36 is 10.6"HG,  this IS HOW THE MDP works on this car, and is only  and EGR sensor,  just for it alone.
MDP does this, and your  tool LIES (marked as Absolute is the lie only, not the data) and told you it was 8.  if you had used hand vacuum gauge you see 19"HG. it idle.
the hand tool is 0bar disconnected, Relative.  Just like the MDP. so is NOT a MAP sensors  it is  Relative BARO sensor.  MAP means manifold absolute pressure, and MDP is NOT That.

the MDP uses these spec, rules. https://fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/EGR-map-test.html


Engine RPM: 3030

Vehicle Speed: 75mph
Ignition Timing Advance @Cylinder #1: 33.5degrees

Snapshot2:
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: 1.6%
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure:  12.9 inHg (relative MDP and is not a MAP)
Engine RPM: 2585
Vehicle Speed: 66mph
Ignition Timing Advance @Cylinder #1: 30.5degrees


Home, Idle hot1 (no accessories on):
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: +2.3% (o2 reads -2% lean ECU goes +2% rich) all normal.
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure:  8.1 inHg  (not this is 8, MDP relative pressure not absolute,  tool lies on name.  a hand tool shows 1 (relative MDP and is not a MAP)
Engine RPM: 787 (idle)
Vehicle Speed: 0mph (parked)
Ignition Timing Advance @Cylinder #1: 10.0degrees

Home, Idle hot2 (no accessories on):
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank1: 3.1%
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure:  8.1 inHg
Engine RPM: 803
Vehicle Speed: 0mph
Ignition Timing Advance @Cylinder #1: 9.0degrees (all above is normal, only the word absolute is dead wrong "name".  (relative MDP and is not a MAP)

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To add to the confusion cold idle is now very high.  (this is all very normal the IAC open more if the air temps are colder, all fully normal. (well depends on how high.)
when talking about cars and UEFI TELL THE Helper out door temps,  and altitude,  (for the latter, in feet or say near sea port or, some clue, ok>?
I guess not really cold and in florida?  (where the grow oranges or KEY Limes (yum)
too high idle means vacuum leaks, (cold)the ISC and the IAC are the only normal leaks by design)
any leak from intake valves to MAF is a leak. (no that maf is not a leak ) The TV is closed at idle.
There are some tests to do to find leaks, (air) unplugging the ISC connector,  makes it close 100%.  (if not stuck open) 
The ISC has 3 hoses,(2 are water) 1 is air you can pinch the air hose and if idle drops to the good zone say 1500.. cold the ISC IS STUCK open.
testing the IAC is super hard. (the 8valve G16a is vastly more easy to test.) not to mention, pinching all air hoses. small.
The IAC is bolted below the TB, and the bolts love to seize making it damn hard to do that hot water pan on stove tests, I like to do.
On can starve it from all air inputted to see its CONTRIBUTION to air. (rpm drop actual) IAC is closed 100% at 150F temp, water, so its colder we want to test it at.  The  hole is in the TB front air  horn bell. HERE. (have you found the TB air bleed screw yet and it not missing?)
that is just 2 sources for leaks there are vast more.
all vacuum lines
all diaphragms even that brake booster)
the injector cushions leak, if not new. sure they are I think. new.
cracked or bad VSV (all)
the main air pipe huge up top can crack,  anywhere there cracks (even mounts broken off and leaks air)  and the large rubber connector  fittings to same  bad.
That is  about it, but sure gaskets too.
finding vacuum leaks is skill set,,, using propane gas trick, pinching lines, vacuum leak down testing hand tool,  sonic leak detectors (a tool) and the SMOKE machine. One guy here (he was at wits end) 8v,  we found after doing all tests,  every single one to no avail the smoke machine nailed this.
the silly car at one time was parked in 0F degree weather with only water as coolant (in FLORIDA) the water now pure deep inside the TB IAC, forze
and ICE expands when frozen and this cracked deep inside the TB cause and air leak, in the IAC, and high IDLE.  where no human can ever go, by the way.
yes vacuum leaks can be a HUGE HORROR. (some are easy some are a horror)
one guy even put his hand over the air horn (do not do that) and he found his engine runs with no air there,  OOPS ,  deep deep damaged.
even intake manifold leaks in very hard to find places...
hope my vacuum stories help you.





Upon beginning of cold temps (how cold?) here it would run 1500(ish)rpm when cold, then settle right down when warm.   common in temperate climates.
Now running 2500-3000 cold, settles down as normal when warm. 3000 is too high, for sure in Florida. (im in TX, was 78F yesterday see? )
  ( ok in maybe Alaska 3000? IDK, but never been there, ,  but for sure more RPM THERE, maybe 2000 max is my guess.)

The 16valve engine only races too fast or only 2 reasons. (throttle cable not set too tight, will do it, 10mm slack is FSM spec on TV cable and cruise cable)
1: the 2 air acutators
2: Vacuum leaks, other.
IAC messing up or ISC sticking. both add air (metered air ) the engine, and do stick when old.  car is old,
IAC is cold engine fast idle device.
If engine is rich, as it sure is cold for fact, any #2 vacuum leaks of any kind will cause HUGE IDLE speeds cold.  (fuel + Air = fast idle)

Simply a change I thought might add insight to this conundrum.  (and is correct, all evidence good bad or ugly helps Diagnosis. for SURE.

Still doing newly revealed mild hiccup also, mostly at cold idle and also at barely open throttle- cruising.  (if you have vacuum leaks, hiccups are common)

I'll send pictures of engine bay tomorrow when sun is up.  (no hurry but I know what belongs there and not, so showing me can help)

First off my comments are for all G16b and all things that can cause problems, I can not discount things, I can't see or know or, any of that , so I show all things for cause. I did not see you set belt tensions all wrong, see? (the belt must never be set to 100lbs tension ever , it fits loose using  tiny spring or it will fail)
but did not , as say car runs great, mostly. do you have the crank pulley 17mm head bolt set to 94ft/lbs as the FSM and TSB DEMAND, (this is  a day 1 fix on all G16)(retroactive to 1989 up)


My paranoia and lack of experience leaves me with these questions (in response to your check list) tonight:  
1.  Is is even possible for the engine to run as well as mind is with incorrectly timed cam? (not it can't run right like that)
 Been my daily driver since I got it all put back together in April.  
My assumption (very possibly wrong) is incorrectly timed cam would result in pretty dramatic loss of power (so true) and awful gas mileage? (see green line above)

2.  Upon more reading on the site today, says cam is timed at #4, but then in instructions for setting timing say to connect timing strobe to #1 SparkHV lead.  Is that correct?
NO spark is set at #1 wireHV TDC firing,  the CAM is timed at #4 firing, period. the 1996 FSM is free and linked in the sticky first post here on this BBS.
The cam cog on this car has 2 false marks, are you aware of that.?
The engine after full assembly and good shop does compression test, to see if all that hard work paid off.  did you? this is first step, then top end oil checked , just cranking a cold new engine, with spark  or better FI fuse pulled so fuel stops flowing, we check that the cam gets OIL, if not stop do not run any new engine every , skipping these first steps.
the make sure oil gallery pressure is good, on a cold engine it is near 50PSI, (cold cranked only , no fuel) then I attempt to start the engine)
I never just throw and engine together and start it up. not me, seem so my do that and wreck a good engine. sad to watch.
The next step is get the vacuum tool off the shelf or tool box, and check vacuum at idle 800rpm hot.  see 19 or 20 " easy.  HG inches, Relative vacuum is 0 HG key off.
Once you get this far, you know that Vacuum is AOK.   and that he scan too lied to you (vast do this) at (relative MDP and is not a MAP)
You need to know that,for EGR , the EGR MDP sensor , work in RELATIVE mode not ABSOLUTE mode..  



 I followed those instructions at original reassembly, so not questioning, just confirming to eliminate variables for my own piece of mind. I'm sure you did but my posts are for
all things that can be wrong, seen Timing belts done wrong vast times or belt too tight and it shreds.... keep and open mind and win., things can fail even new things.

3.  I'm just plain baffled. ( don't be we are collecting Evidence,  and you did GREAT !!!!!
 Trying to keep an eye on O2 graph readings while driving, both seem to be swinging as if working correctly, but I am sure no expert.  (get a helper to drive and you look)
No need every to work alone if doing dangerous tests, use 2 persons, my Laptop has record mode,  and can log live data (and filtered) all day long. no hands
how you log , can be easy or hard or dangerous.  (see my photo above with tons of wiggly lines, that was recorded, all that was)scantool.net. _+Palmer scan software.
I own this software called Palmer. (nothing Ive seen is better or for sure more safe to use (hand free logging) (push record, drive, stop , push play back,.)


the O2 sensors, are not static, at all, they measure 02 and the ECU hunts the mixtures constantly never ending (hot engine) and those readings you see are like scope
each time the voltage crosses 0.45 (center) (called cross counts) that is the ECU doing that with fuel mix, trim,  it is a dynamic ECU servo action, no different than idle speed ISC or cruise controls all are servos.... they hunt to attain perfect, all do. but the O2, hunts deeper on purpose to keep that CAT hot (by law, and by Physics of the cat)

So if it is cross counting like my  photo clearly show, and the swing go near 0v and near .9v   then all is  well in trim land and 02 land.  sees so to me.
The swings end at WOT< and if you move the throttle fast.  the come back as you cruise steady or just idle (hot engine )




 Only time no swing, is at closed throttle while moving (hard deceleration or WOT) all O2 values drop to bottom until throttle is reopened.  
I download that info and post as soon as possible also.
4.  Paranoia says I timed something wildly incorrectly, but its hard to believe that's the case as its capable of running stably, consistently, been my daily driver since the early spring, with no obvious signs of problems other than this CAT burnup or  deal.

Thank you for all of your input, knowledge and suggestions.

The engine is running ok,  I see that in the data so far.
the EGR is dead, but we can fix that,
(so far we have cat melts, cat breakup inside, and EGR dead, and bad cold idle and hiccups,  any more?) evidence.?

[attachment=886 Wrote:fixkick pid='12318' dateline='1574168998']CAT 101 : basics (then covering beat to death CAT last)
when you start a cold engine the CAT gets a load of unburned fuel (HC) dead cold, and ECU is in cold start rich burn mode and the cat gets light off fast. (and must stay so)

then ECU goes to hot engine mode, and goes to STOICH,  14.7:1 AFR, and if the cat is too far from the exhaust header it can now go DEAD< a dead cat. (means not lit off)
then it sucks up fuel cold , and overheats at some point , mostly going fast. after the fuel soak up. (dead) (suckup , fry , suckup , fry repeat)

The goal is , A hot engine, and at every stop signal, (stop light /sign) the CAT stays LIT off, or it can overheat later, (imagine this endless cat torture if not working right)

The cure is get the cat close to the header. close as possible. IF You do the CAT can list 100,000 miles, even more. mine had 150k on it.
looking at examples:
see Modern V6 engines with 2 cats mounted at 45degree angle dead close, this is THAT and WHY. faster light off and stays so, is the reason.

one thing great on this Suzuki Drive line , no extra wasted parts, all parts on topic have  PURPOSE,  so here I will exhibit what parts do DOWN UNDER,

this was your car, before the hurricane. (stock car)

I pasted this photo of the SUZ EPC, parts cat, (official dwg)

parts 7 must be there.  if a custom cat , one must design there own mounts. if not? the cat beats it self to death from the  nasty 4cyclinder  huge vibrations.  and the monolith element inside cracks then breaks up to chucks then dust, (my jeep 88' did the same. and I made a custom mount, to replace the jeep mount that broke, every 10,000  miles (fixed and drove 250k more and I had 2 of those cars, one Pickup and one 4door SUV both failed. both cured.)


part 17 is to body frame rail, mount.
part #1 is what I call the funky tube. (some are double walled) if are and not upgraded it insides collapses.   <<<the TSB is here)

if your part 1:   can be missing, or not a 1996+ (Good one)  or 1992-95 bad one, then all this matters,  what matters is the the insides of pipe 1 is not collapsed.
other cards CAT's  are  with a pelleted  cat guts do not fail shook hard, (James Bond, shaken but not stirred)

now some more news.
SOME OBD2 DTC tests are skipped, if some tests before it failed. P0421 is that, if the 02 front fails it can not test the rear 421 test. so skips this.
that means fix 1 thing and 2nd error happens, see why? (called unmasking) OBD2 joys.

NO lie this cat is fragile,  that is a fact, some make huge rattling sound inside (the doomed sound) 
or buy a pellet cat,  for 1.6 to 2.0L and use that, end the pain of weak CATS.

TSB = suzuki technical service bulletins. ( on all cars read these first then turn the wrench)

and last good luck with your custom Kick,  and please put a human protect on that side crash bar mounts. (foam? wrapped?) IDK but a for sure knee killer.