Stall hot, P0400, P0505

[Jorgi]

Dear All,

Please help with my constant stalling issue...!

Car: USA spec, made in Canada, 1996, manual, 2 door, 4x4, geo tracker with 150,000 miles.

Tune up is up to date. The car still gets 24 mpg and feels peppy for what it is.

Some months ago it started stalling at stops with a p0400.
I checked the hoses, clean the #4 hole in the throttle, the SST tube, but there was no change in behavior.

Then I did the stall test. It passed.

I then did the bark test. I thought the bark was too weak, so I cleaned all the passages toward the exhaust. No change.

By then I was sure it was the EGR main. I put a new one, no change.

Then, of course, it had to be the modulator. I put a new one. No change.

Now the car was stalling hot every time I stop pushing the gas pedal.

Since it is passing the first two tests, I did the live test. It passed.

I have not formally tested the VSV valves. But I did check that they are open when the car is off and they close when the car is on.

Then I noticed that the car is not idling properly at start up. When I start it, it only goes to about 600-800 rpm and once it gets hot it stalls.

I got an ELM327 OBD2 Bluetooth transmitter and using the Torque application I can see that the car reaches closed loop in 15-20 seconds. The vacuum is about 20 in Hg and the car gets hot and stays hot.

For some reason everything worked perfect yesterday. It went to 1300 rpm at start up, went down to 800 and stay there at idle at every stop of my 15-20 min commute.

Coming back home, the same, no issue until this morning. Started at 900 rpm, first stop sign, it stalled. this has happened once before.
Every few months one good day.

I keep it alive by feathering the gas, and the car always start right back up. it responds easy and quick to feathering the gas pedal, just a tiny touch will raise the rpms.

The only two modifications to the car are a less restrictive CAT back and replaced the transmission with a lower mileage one like 10,000 miles ago (the old one had a bad internal bearing).

I do not have any code right now, but the car stalls immediately once it gets hot.

I was going to disassemble the ISC next...or try to do more tests on the VSV...any ideas?

Anything I can get from reading the OBD?

Thanks for any and all help,

Jorgi

[fixkick]

welcome,Jorgi !!!
first thing to be said, is that the ECU might run the EGR tests (called monitors) and actually should not, do that, if other things are wrong,
in fact if the engine vacuum is bouncing , the EGR map sensor will see that and can fail the EGR test even with a fully good EGR SYSTEM.
the ECU is not too smart here,
best is to do the tests first and not throw $300 in parts. (IMO) in all cases.... but a new EGR is good to have, they love to stick this old.
REDUX. answering ONLY for 1996 USA CARS with OBD2 , as clearly seen P0400 means, its USA car, even if bought in Canada, it has USA market sticker under hood. to get that code, (in 1998 canada copied our system OBD2)
really all this is covered in my gen3 page, read that?
just one page linked to all causes, and all tests,, I do cover every single way to get 400s, how it works and prove all myths wrong, USA invented ODB2 so , if you read books not 1996 or from other countries all facts you read are lies. that is a fact.
505 is bad idle , in most cases its due to bad EGR. (or misfire grossly , or just like EGR does, bad)
If fact the ECU should not run EGR tests if 505 sets, and others.... but seems yours does.

400 means test A or B EGR test , OBD2 rules
we connect a scan tool (all work here every otc brand) and see the Freeze frame data. to see if mode A or B failed, called MONITOR A or B
in English that means cruise fails or deceleration test fails for EGR.
most times it dont matter but is nice to know mode. failing, for ration diagnosis.

so do the stall test first
my page tells you exactly what to do, if it fails, we fix THAT First.
my very strong engine (new) runs at 400 rpm stall tested, and shakes like a wet dog, due to gross misfire, because EGR open at idle is an illegal mode, but is test one,here

my choice page (years, and countries, if you know generation class)
http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-choice.html

then yours, called GEN 3 (usa refr, point of views only)

http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-Gen3.html
see this page, see stall test, do that.
if the test is dead, the EXHAUST path is failing all in 5min work, 2/3rd of the work is eliminated, (if lucky my 96 had 2 fail points, stall failed and when corrected the VSV was dead, dang, life is hard)
on a cold engine does the egr diaphram flex by inserting and index finger there. this is really first 1st tests. see?

[fixkick]

shorter.
All you need to do is defeat the EGR. (all 1996 cars can report bad EGR and it can be OK)
if the engine runs poorly in ANY REGARD, then fix this first, and not activate the EGR, until this list passes.
1: no other DTCs. after defeating EGR, and ignoring p0400s if they pop.
2: idle controls work , eg: 800RPM hot idle and you can turn on all accessories in car and idle does not drop below or above 800rpm (50rpm plus minus ok).AC on is 1000 hot, you can turn on defrost, heater fan and Head lights and 800 happens,
RPM surge not acceptable,
if not we find out why.
3: engine holds closed loop status via scan tool.
4: engine does NOT misfire.
5: engine power good. and mpg if time permits checking mpg.
6: spark tips not turning black. (or green or oil soaked)
7: 02 senor swings nice at idle, if your scan tool lets you watch it, most do.
8: spark timing at spec, and not way off due to cam belt slip.) both must be at spec.

to defeat egr:
pull egr main hose, at main, (rear of engine intake)
plug hose with golf tee
now evaluate.
make sure the main EGR is closed, if new IT IS, its has a strong spring insided.
once sure engine runs perfect , activate EGR.

[Jorgi]

Hi Fixkick,

thanks for your answers and help. Spark plug tips are tan/cream, the car seems strong, I got 25 mpg in my last tank.

The P0505 went away by itself in two weeks but the car kept throwing the P0400 and stalling all the time idling hot. You did mention the MAF several times and I checked. Sure enough it was reading low (0.8, 0.9, 1.0). Got a new MAF, it is reading 1.6 g/s at idle, 8.5 g/s at 2500 rpm, and the car is not stalling anymore. But it is idling at 560 rpm.

Should I adjust the idle screw (under the black cap behind the throttle body)?

thanks,

Jorgi

[fixkick]

the egr valve is sticking open , they all do that every 50k or so miles.
the 400s , is detected with the EGR maP VALVE. there is 2 tests, driving , one test to be sure it flows and one to make sure it closes.
it watches vacuum reading from this EGR map. to do that, most times its correct , barring any , huge vacuum leaks.

505 just means the ecu lost control of idle speeds, which you can see it did at 560
800 is normal, hot.
the egr loves to stick open just as you roll to a stop and idle falls below 800. when you see that, its EGR sticking, because at this moment, its commanded shut.
glad to see maf is reading good ! Great work finding that.
if MAF was dead, sure idle can drop. as it works at idle too.

ok if sure the egr is closed, and has low idle. hot.
and sure the tps idle switch is closed, at 0v not 5volts.
then you can unscrew the bleed, idle screw.
the correct way , is set ISC idle duty to 50% using steps for that.

but you can play with it, its harmless. this bleed is metered air, and good.

if the ISC valve (electric) is not stuck, the bleed screw opened ,my wake it up.
as you turn it , the isc way, come on line and open more and idle comes up. THe ecu is programmed to 800 rpm, (a servo)
it may have been set wrong to help hide a dead maf.

looking better, cheers !

[fetcher]

.I had the same stall problem with my 16v 1996. My understanding is that when already warm, the computer goes into full cycle which includes an egr test. The computer is looking for an RPM drop. I think when you start driving, you get the egr test, and at the first stop you make, the car stalls. I tried all the things presented here, but from time to time I still had that stall. While working on something else, I needed to remove the throttle body from the plenum. Inside there I found 1/4 inch of thick black goop. When I cleaned that all up and put the car back together, the stalling problem was gone.

[fixkick]

actually it depends on 2 things (besides, vitara/sidekick/tracker and G16s)
it depends on country, (called market and there are up to 54 ECU to cover all markets, (countries)
the rules are dictated by the country sold, not by suzuki , unless the country allows, E01 or JDM cars into said country or state.
this is how all cars work, world wide, all in 1 paragraph. see?
The op car is USA spec, market car, there are 2, the FEDERAL and California.
I think both are same , and both are G16bs and have a calif, ecu or fed ecu under the dash and for sure, sets all rules and logic here.

1996 in usa, if that is the location , by law changed to OBD2, (by law and is our system, we invented, OBD2,, and how it works)

the EGR only activates moving, (car most be faster than 1 MPH) and must not be at idle, (idle switch must not be closed to have EGR flows)
The EGR VSV at the instant , opens up sending ported vacuum to the MOD valve and this valve , if the cat is not missing modulates all flows of EGR exhaust to port 4 in the exhaust manifold
the ECU also (by OBD2 edict) has 2 monitors on this action, mode A and B, as stated clearly in the free 96 FSM listed here, ask if cant find it, please.
Yes, there are other requirements, hot engine, and closed loop, and NEVER AT WIDE OPEN THROTTLE.
Not to mention that ADDED VSV on the rear of the intake man. this is OBD2 level mandated VSV, this allows more intelligent EGR monitor tests, the ECU opens it to do the tests. this proves which end if the complex system is failing.
There are vacuum rules too, all clearly called out in the spec. (hot engine etc, the 2 pages below tell you the preconditions and how it works)
here is mine.
but is not looking for an rpm drop, the ECU has its own EGR BARO (MDP) sensor now, only on USA cars, and is used to see the vacuum change, at this sensor to prove the EGR works or not (OBD2 laws). in BOTH TESTS. one test is cut fuel test, and one is cruise test. per the book rules.
lets now look at GEN 3 (USA gens, not world wide) if not in USA you must state that or all answer by me will be WRONG, for sure.
http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-Gen3.html
now the rules for the test.
the system can fail 3 ways, (basics) Electric, vacuum and exhaust paths.
we first find which of the 3 it is, its not hard to do or magical;,, we do the stall tests and bark tests first, so see WHO is messing up first.
or its going to be a LOST WEEKEND again.
here are the 2 , OBD2 tests.
off that same page.
page 1 (FSM verbatim)
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/96Tra...-x_02a.jpg
page 2:
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/96Tra...x_03-a.jpg

these are facts, and the first question to ask , is how to tell if test A or B fails.
easy the FREEZE FRAME tells you that !
test A is cruise
test B is the deacelleration test, cut fuel mode.
as you can see by federal edict, they check that the flow is zero cut fuel and flows correctly cruising, they check that the valve opens and closes by law now. before in 1995 , they checked only heat, and only with valve open, and can be fooled easy, it never checks cold , ever. (bad that was)
OBD2 changed everything... (can talk all day on OBD2)

.I had the same stall problem with my 16v 1996. My understanding is that when already warm, the computer goes into full cycle which includes an egr test. The computer is looking for an RPM dropNO. I think when you start driving, you get the egr test, and at the first stop you make, the car stalls. I tried all the things presented here, but from time to time I still had that stall. While working on something else, I needed to remove the throttle body from the plenum. Inside there I found 1/4 inch of thick black goop. When I cleaned that all up and put the car back together, the stalling problem was gone. We have seen 100s of monoport blockages, endless....
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/EGR/97-cl...age_1.html
your were lucky, my 97 had ever pipe , packed, end to end,,,, (and was caused by LImphome, ignored by PO)

I guess you missed my page covering all that to the huge extent, your USA car has the OBD2 mono port intake for EGR.
others (countries) use the 4 ports in intake manifold all other non USA cars. do this year.
see this page yet?, its been here for 10 years now.

http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-choice.html

see the 4 generations?, I can do more, if asked for ever newer cars, with electric EGR. sure can , like the 1996, up , SPORT 1.8L or 2.0L DOHC engines.

do the stall test, yet? If JOrgi did it would have failed, telling you its the exhaust side failing (1 of 3 possible so just saved yourself 2/3rd of the work)
stalls or nearly stalls, if you see NOTHING we fix that first. see?
is the egr main diaphragm stuck, (cold engine, using index finger press the ring seen on my EGR page (index to EGR) it most move about, 1/4" or 6mm. if not its jammed and hopeless this valve fix it or buy a new one. most are stuck or sticking.
we can do this 1 simple step at a time. or read my pages on EGR.
keep in mind if the CAT is missing, all hope is lost. or rodded out, or blown out. or gutted or missing. (IT must have spec back pressure , must)

I use a hand vacuum tool on the EGR main nipple to get it to open if that fails, manually index finger it, cold engine, ah its stuck this takes me what cold to hot. 5min work.
the in 30seconds do the vacuum stall.
is this hard work?

[fixkick]

non usa 1996-98 cars are code 51 = our 400 and is a single test, not 2.
505s
505 means idle controls failing, well if the EGR sticks open , idle controls go out of, control.
so is last fix.
always, idle is always last to work. all else must be GOOD first.

[fixkick]

Dear All,

Please help with my constant stalling issue...! (if only EGR stalled, it is sticking open ,as all old EGR mains do, that is what they do as you roll to a stop
i can clean them and 1/2 work for a year, then fail or fail next week, some that stick CAN NOT BE CURED< only replaced.

Car: USA spec, made in Canada, 1996, manual, 2 door, 4x4, geo tracker with 150,000 miles.

Tune up is up to date. The car still gets 24 mpg and feels peppy for what it is.

Some months ago it started stalling at stops with a p0400.
I checked the hoses, clean the #4 hole in the throttle, the SST tube, but there was no change in behavior.

Then I did the stall test. It passed. (GOOD that means the exhaust that is clean , mostly)

I then did the bark test. I thought the bark was too weak, so I cleaned all the passages toward the exhaust. No change.

By then I was sure it was the EGR main. I put a new one, no change. why the stall passes now?

Then, of course, it had to be the modulator. I put a new one. No change. (this is hard to test, and the CAT tests is first, not this)

Now the car was stalling hot every time I stop pushing the gas pedal. (parked and it is stalled? really) then pull the eGR main VAC hose, the stall must end or the VSV is bad.)
The idle switch must be closed at idle, but the ported vacuum also kills all vacuum at the TB ported vacuum port so at idle there is NO VACUUM possible
so the MOD is dead now, it can be MOD, as NOW there is no VACUUM see??????
you actually missed this very important test, pulling the VACUUM line, after all VSV can fail stuck open, all valves made by man can do that, (lots of fail modes in all Valves)

Since it is passing the first two tests, I did the live test. It passed.

I have not formally tested the VSV valves. But I did check that they are open when the car is off and they close when the car is on.

Then I noticed that the car is not idling properly at start up.
When I start it, it only goes to about 600-800 rpm and once it gets hot it stalls. (cold idle is about 1100 to 1500 rpm by virtue of thermal IAC valve)
and there is no cold EGR ever. period and if you push the EGR main diaphagm with index finger and it is closed, they the EGR is NOT IN THE LOOP, its OFF LINE NOW, end EGR worries NOW.
HOT idle the EGR is closed too, but now IAC is off line and ECU runs idle at 800 hot, via ISC, valve, if not 800 then there are problems , more.
ISC dirty, ever clean it and bench test it per my ISC pages>?

I got an ELM327 OBD2 Bluetooth transmitter and using the Torque application I can see that the car reaches closed loop in 15-20 seconds. The vacuum is about 20 in Hg and the car gets hot and stays hot.
Try to know that the EGR tests can fail if there are other, more basic engine/EFI failures,
The EGR tests all take a perfect running engine, good MPG, no misfire, no bad idles. no dead 02, no exhaust leaks hear 02, no cracks here.
The EGR tests both , look in test "A" for steady states, then fires off the test, if the conditions change (say misfires) the EGR test can be void, fails and is a lie.
Like watching a clown juggle, is perfect and fun to watch then some bad guy throws a tomato at his nose, bam he drops the ball, same with EGR monitors.
This is a slow, ECU, its not going to be fast and see fast changing errors. like the tomato. so can lie, this is a fact on all cars, now. 1996 to now. gets better but is fact.

For some reason everything worked perfect yesterday. It went to 1300 rpm at start up, went down to 800 and stay there at idle at every stop of my 15-20 min commute.
GOOD !

Coming back home, the same, no issue until this morning. Started at 900 rpm, first stop sign, it stalled. this has happened once before.
Every few months one good day.

I keep it alive by feathering the gas, and the car always start right back up. it responds easy and quick to feathering the gas pedal, just a tiny touch will raise the rpms.
BUT CAN YOU SAVE THE STALL EASY, if yes, the ISC may be stuck closed. all do this.

The only two modifications to the car are a less restrictive CAT back and replaced the transmission with a lower mileage one like 10,000 miles ago (the old one had a bad internal bearing).
Is the CAT honey comb in tact, seen with eyes, if yes, its ok, forget cat, the cat must be there to have a working MOD, and pass federal smog test.
if the cat is missing EGR fails and p0421, cat dead test fails. 2 fails, one cause.

I do not have any code right now, but the car stalls immediately once it gets hot.

I was going to disassemble the ISC next...or try to do more tests on the VSV...any ideas?

Anything I can get from reading the OBD?

Thanks for any and all help,

Jorgi

what is MISSING here?
engine stalls!
get out of car, and see if EGR main is stuck open, do not get burned, it will be roasting hot.
this is not easy to do. i use gloves and try to finger it. (your finger may be too big or?)
if it's closed, EGR issues are a red herring hear, NOT IT.

now know this,
close the EGR cold (with finger is its suborn , new valve will not fail here, remove the egr hose, from it and put a golf tee in the hose EGR MAIN,
now the EGR is closed forever (a test only, ) and the hose can not suck air,
now drive, if car stalls THE EGR IS NOT IT.
we then WORK IT.

see>???? this is how all EGRs on G16s are best done. all. up to 1998, random stalling... this....way....

If the EGR is NOT IT what might it be?, well that is easy . but is a long list.

1: the 50 causes of misfire. omg, really 50, yes. huge. (case in point sticking intake valves or exhaust) but is what?,misfire.
so lets do stalls all the way, possible, and how to find it .
2:misfire. (misfire can stall and engine, infact if EGR is GOOD , this is why)
3: engine bad. sure. can be, and lots of parts to fail the larger list in the 50
4: fueling issues.
5: ECU see bad sensors.
6: leaking or clogging injectors. or low fuel pressure.
its and endless lists, but no fear....

the true list is MISFIRE> only MISFIRE CAUSES STALLS. (spark : fuel or engine caused) EGR not, as we just proved its NOT. see? leaving the not so NIFTY FIFTY.
if the right fast foot (feathering) trick saves stalls, it's not spark, I Bet if spark is bad, adding more air with fuel should not cure bad spark.
leaving 2 more mACRO reasons., engine and fueling.

if the engine is really strong, and valve lash set like the bible said (fsm bible) for 60k mile cam belt change it says, check valve lash if lash is good, then valves will not stick open
if oil is changed regularly valves do not stick.... but my vacuum gage in 5min work shows hard steady vaucuum 20inches and the NEEDLE DOES NOT TWITCH AT ALL !!!!
and compression is at spec. leaving us with just 1, fueling.

FUELING 101, (really a huge topic, once here, and need to fix FUELING : be it know fueling runs in MODES, many modes, cold engine, hot, idle , cruise and WOT, cranked all have own rules.
best way to learn this is think its like 6 different ECUs' up to 8 counting Limphome or BACKUP MODE (OMG)

when i say fueling I mean AIR AND FUEL, as that only matters now to end misfire. done not be confused, the ECU controls both and you with right foot.
Idle controls go off line as soon as your right foot gets into the TV, Throttle valve,idle switch opens and YOU ARE THE AIR SUPPLY see?


if adding throttle saves a stall super easy, (you never said what transmission and that matters, big time)
as the A/T loves to stall why, because the AT clutch dags full time and if the ISC sticks closed the engine stalls from lack of air.
if m'/t the driver slams clutch to floor and there is NO LOAD on this engine at all. (besides pumping losses, i will not digress to that) (AC off , accessories off then no load at stall right?)
the engine needs air to run, lots and lots of air, if air ends so does, combustion and stall fast.

ISC cleaned, and tested per my ISC page (type ISC in the search box on fixkick.com and see that) SURE !
leaving what, FUEL ONLY. if ISC works only fueling remains. (ECU inputs ,etc)

Does the Fuel pump pressure tests at RAIL? okay, and leak down test, if they fail, injectors are leaking there is also the injector balance test, to see if all 4 flow equally.
using oBD2 scans , and data log.
what are all the sensor readings hot. ? every one matter.s


MISFIRE IS a hUGE TOPIC as is COMBUSTION.
are the spark tips white or black or green. that too is a free test.

http://www.fixkick.com/misfiring.html

[fixkick]

the cat back is not important
what is? , is cat forward,
in fact, that is why they call it this, what end wrecks fueling, rates , cat forward.
that means 02 works and no air leaks or cracks allowed from the front "leading" edges of the CAT honey comb forward.
or the 02 slams to 0volts and ECU goes max rich and engine misfires.
sparks tops run black.
If cat melts engine power goes to hell, and vacuum acts totally CRAZY. (laggard and reversed kinda )
The EGR converts EGR back pressure into EGR Flow rates
the back pressure is engine load, in a very crude and crazy method abandoned forever in 1999, to now.
in all newer cars load is computed deep inside the ECU, (vacuum/rpm /tables, gears selected, fuel flows, maf readings etc) and egr super simple as door prize.