Throttle Body/Throttle Position Sensor

[fixkick]

the 2 tests I can not do    are
1: does RPM rise when the bleed screw is opened more CCW.. Yes/no or too little.
2; and if it did, rise even go to 800rpm ?does the engine misfire NOW, ,heard or seen engine shake, is misfire,. yes/no.

one more,  if you rap that  side of the MAF sensor gently with end of screwdriver, blade in hands) does RPM go nuts , HOT IDLE test only.
that is bad MAF if yes
but the MAF test is so easy, with any voltmeter made on earth..

misfire must not happen on 800rpm hot engine, but 500 it sure can,and well 500 is wrong find wrong fix wrong. now.

misfire yes, hot engine.
there are other things, if i can force 800rpm by hand and vacuum is  bounces that is a  bad engine, cam timed wrong or spark, or intake valves sticking or vave lash set so very wrong.

all shops on earth use a vacuum gauge to make sure engine is not sick. all do  bouncing vacuum  is WRONG. (this is basic basics testing ,engine base line testing)
but you need to get RPM to 800 first, I use my hand do to that, easy or play with bleed screw now that it was set wrong.

as you can see testing finds problems, and then leads to more testing and where it leads is based on sound logic and EFI and engine tests and lots of tests really.
did you know pro shops have tools many shops never heard of..????
like compressing measured from starter current ( THE AMPS MEASURE  TELLS PSI BACK PRESSURE) no need to pull spark plugs, using real classic compressing gauge.
and spark analyzers. even even with combustion peak pressure using spark plasma resistance?
and 5 gas tail pipe exhaust analyzers or at the 02 sensor bung, to see if engine runs rat nasty>? a pro shop even adds a test port near the 02 sensor, for testing 5 GAS... on the hard cases.

there are lots of shops that  know this, find a real ASE certified shop, and watch them go directly to TRUE CAUSE AND NOT WASTE LABOR OR PARTS GETTING THERE..

the have a OBD2 scan too, that logs, I can drive for 1 hour and log all data from all sensors, full time.,  then come back and replay the logs see what is good, bad and ugly
many are clueless a $150 tool can do.   (with a laptop , mine works super easy)
seeing things, omg 02 front is 100% dead, all the time, oops, that be prime failure #1
I use this tool,  here is play back of just a few sensors, all or some , my choice.

see that bottom blue trace (virtual; O-scope it is) here. that is  your car and mine, O2 front sensor working and swinging, if yours  is dead that is a first ORDER FAILURE
as is 500 RPM parked, hot.  see this plot below. this works LIVE with 2 persons, or I do it and play it back just like watching DVD player  yah.

See that LIVE MAF data , toP




the pro knows this old car will have 2 more problems ,all that is NORMAL after 2 decades on the road , expect that and win, he will..

[fixkick]

one guy last month , told car ran bad, but never told engine was weak.
they never owned a G16b that ran right, so he had no weak engine reference points at all and I can not drive his car.. far far away me.
found out the mech put the cam belt on using the false makes. and cam was set be RETARDED and then found spark wrong, and did the horror.. set spark timing to match wrong cam.
all for the shop not reading the FSM , to learn all that ( I am sure you know that but this is so common one can only cry) RTM read the manuals first then LEAP
the cam sprocket on this ENGINE Fits yours and one more DOHC 2 cam engine. A FACT.
"I" marks both ARE WRONG. both ARE , TIME MARK AND CAM KEY "I" ARE DEAD WRONG.

https://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/16V/mine/cam-cog1w.jpg

[3Waggintails]

OMG!!! My brain is fried.  I read and read and read your stuff.  It is just over my head in many cases.

I can read and comprehend but I just get lost in all the jargon, etc.

A)  first of all,   Is the the Idle air control valve shown in your picture you just set?  See link below

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Pr...automotive

You are saying that this can be cleaned.  Can it also be bad?  what test will show if bad - vacum test?

This is the thing that controls my correct 800 RPM idle?  It can be dirty or getting bad message from TPS?

I am trying to make sure I understand in simplest terms.  I have to read your responses over and over and over again because I just get lost....

FYI:

This is throttle body I got off ebay (should be correct for my 1997 car as opposed to what originally on my car):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/96-97-98-1996-G...2749.l2649

This is modulator I got off Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18112-60B00-Geo...2749.l2649

This is VSV switch I got off ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EGR-Valve-Contr...2749.l2649

This is EGR I got off Ebay:

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...5439225027

I work really hard to get the right parts and ask a lot of questions, etc.  As you might guess.  LOL

Just want you to see parts.

B)  I could not find it in your response but my brain is just dead over this....What about the O2 sensor in the down pipe?  You think dead for sure?  You think possibly leaking air around that if not a crack in the exhaust manifold where you indicated or both?  I need to know so I can have them check all.

c) You did not say whether you thought my idea of putting all parts back EGR, MOD and my original functioning EGR switch was okay.  They are all good.

d)  Should they put back the ORIGINAL throttle body and TPS from my car (even though a 95 model TB/TPS) or leave the one I got off Ebay from 98 tracker (one that should have been on my car) on there?

Is there a possibility the switch part in the TPS is dead/ no good so would need new TPS anyway?

E)  So I could need a MAF as well pending testing?

f) MAP only for EGR - correct so doubtful I would need?  Only find used that not arm and leg unless you have source?



I have to go there in the morning tomorrow early so I need to know.



Not to mention, I need to return parts. I cant keep stuff I dont need and $$$$ will help pay for any other parts or toward possible more BILL with them.

I have to contact Ebay for extension on TB return and I can return a $150 TPS to Advance if I am keeping my original throttle body.  Need want respect what you have to say on TB/TPS situation.

I will try to go through all your responses and make a list in rank order for them to do:

1, 2, 3, 4, etc....if I can figure that out.

Also, would any pictures of engine etc be helpful just for the record?  If so what would you like and I will try to get?

Please ADvise ASAP.  

Are getting PM's that I am sending?

[3Waggintails]

I have a very cheap scan tool $20 from Wally and did good to get you data that I did.  Made by Autell (spelling) but marketed as Hyper Tough (Wally stuff) HT 309

All it lets me do is Read codes not pending, erase codes, view freeze frame data, retrieve I/M readiness status.. Cant do anything else.  But most shops that are good have more than one and very expensive like what you are showing me.

[fixkick]

3Waggintails has private messaging disabled. You cannot send private messages to this user.
yes that is what is called a code reader, it is a very limited device.
yes some cheaper Autells are weak.. have one here weak, just for fun to see just how weak. sold at harbor FRIGHT.
yes, some good tools are $300  ,  , or  $50 dongle, old laptop and run $100 software like mine above..   if old laptops about , free, cost is $150 , the hand held tools good  are expensive..

not sure me what to tell any 3rd party, i've  no idea if they are ASE certified and have a full load of useful tools in the shop, many are just guessing guys,  try this ,try that, and pray.
The EFI systems are complex.   (as is actual engine)
That is the why wise shops test the engine first,  as EFI can not run a bad engine, or near bad.. EFI can hide weakness sure.  in fact very well. (example 1 slipped cam time belt)
all we know is: (useful )

1. idle is wrong a 500, no one once told why, ? nor did tests to find why, this is text book ASE ways, for sure. (lean, rich, AFR or spark misfiring,
   
2. EGR is not stuck open ,main is new, so will not fail at idle ever,well if vacuum lines not connect wrong, OMG bad. that..
   
3. your only scans (very llimited) shows O2 front is dead, and EGR  OBD2 are no good like that (self tests by IT) EGR tests must not be trusted,(obd2) if  engine vacuum is wrong.. 
   
4. idle bleed screw set wrong, making duty cycle wrong..  turn it back to where you found it?
   
5. ISC stuck needs cleaning never me seen one not gunk'ed up at 100k miles,
   
6. New TPS and installer failed to calibrate it ,just threw it on, like on new cars, this car is not new. and idle switch reads wrong 5v at hot idle making #5 ISC now Dead. forever.
   
7. WOT power is ok,,  (I guess) making me thing ENGINE IS not bad. but I can not drive your car and feel the 95HP there.
   
8. full scans and logs driving easy the aggressive, logging the all sensor data.  not done.  All shops know this finds problems and for SURE intermittent.
   
9. vacuum leaks done. Smoke test.  hoses not cracked sucking in air.
   
10. exhaust manifold not checked for cracks shields off, for causing 02 death. (so common on this car)
    

now the short list:
500rpm is dead wrong hot, why. (there is a reason any good ASE knows what to do) (there is a bevy of tests to find why)
O2 dead and TRIM stuck at OL not CL, why? Why is it stuck OPEN LOOP , if at idle stuck there find why first but 500rpm sure can do that )
Oh my golly gee, why not open throttle lever, a tad hit 800rpm , CL NOW?  so obvious and 10 seconds work,,, tool in face OBD2..
your 02 is stuck dead OL,  at 40mph and that TOO is dead wrong.

using a short list, this done right testing, takes any ASE to the right tests and right causes.. as my wise friend says, fix what you know is wrong now and first..
The car is screaming (EFI) why is it 500 RPM why why  why: hot engine. (put bleed screw back where it was sure) then see 500 and hear it scream for help. still.

I bet 2 things wrong, at least..  but hope 1.

[fixkick]

many shops with no skills EFI or no tools.
do this.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/11/better-light/

or worse, then charge you $1000 for NOTHING,, funny thing just like most doctors..... gee mame we tried,

[fixkick]

or spends 5 days guessing , and 50 hours labor and 5 new parts and $5000 bill (50hr x $100hr)
and not fixed
the new ASE shop finds a loose wire. and $100 cost.

[3Waggintails]

Well please pardon any errors I'm using voice prompt on my phone. I am desperate here I'm getting ready to head over to that shop and try to talk to them and see if I can articulate any of this stuff because I don't know that I can get them to read it to me honest. I need to know if I should just put back the original throttle body and TPS that was on there. We can plug up the EGR as you suggested and I will tell him about testing these other things and cleaning the idle air control valve and checking the idle make him drive it with me Etc but I don't know if I should leave this correct throttle body for the year of the car on there or not or just put things back the way they were and then work these other issues

[3Waggintails]

To the best of my knowledge they are ase-certified. They have all kinds of different cars in their Maseratis Model Tees all kinds of different cars so I don't understand what the problem is here. Why they can't do what you're saying or why they haven't and if they have they haven't told me so