89 starting issue

[hoffy30]

Wow !! What a great site. Have an 89 that I am having trouble getting started. Have checked and rechecked all timing marks, valve adjustment and have fuel at the throttle body. Cranks fine but will not fire. Saw the info re the tachometer not working when cranking which is what I have. Is this a definitive diagnosis for a bad igniter ? Want to make sure as the cost of either a rebuilt distributor or ignition module is pricey for this year. Thanks in advance for any help.

[fixkick]

Welcome, Hoffy and thanks.!
1.6L EFI?
oops , this is a total 89 EFI motor swap into a 93 body oops.
that be different.

the first test with any motor work, is to validate compression.
that way , you know you did all the steps, right.
on motor major work , i always.
1: check compression.
2: and crank the motor with oil pressure gauge, attached, and get 50psi with cold 10w-30 oil.
3: then check top end oiling, after first start ( the head glasket Felpro is marked TOP , the china clones are not, if upside down you lose all oil to the head
and it burns up. , i never skip these tests.

the after lash set and cam timing , i then time the dizzy last. (use a real spark plug to test spark quality, a timing light only check TIME)
once I have my 155psi compression, WOT,?
I start the motor on test fuel with the fuel pump relay pulled .
I do that, to hear the motor run and to hear that it is not making horrid sounds. (saves lots of engines)

then, last I connect the fuel pump relay and and fire it up.
with the Valve cover off, and look for top end oiling, if fail. cut the key and fix top end oiling.

total motor build (general)
but step 29 applies to any head swap. the head has a 0.050" (50 thou) orifice, it must not be blocked. (either of the 2 ways)
http://www.fixkick.com/engine/97-motor-p...m-end.html

[hoffy30]

Welcome, Hoffy and thanks.!
1.6L EFI?

Wow !! What a great site. Have an 89 that I am having trouble getting started.
Have checked and rechecked all timing marks, valve adjustment and have fuel at the throttle body.
Cranks fine but will not fire.
Saw the info re the tachometer not working when cranking which is what I have.
Is this a definitive diagnosis for a bad igniter ? Want to make sure as the cost of either a rebuilt distributor or ignition module is pricey for this year. Thanks in advance for any help.

the 89 1.6L Track/kicks have a NO spark generating ECU (it monitors spark but play no role in making spark, until 1991)
if the tacho line goes dead the ECU dues, halt fueling, but test fuel runs ,(sprayed in the intake)
if test fuel fails. then you lost spark, so test spark.
use a real good spark plug gapped to 0.028 inches, at each spark plug wire, if the spark is gone at wires, move the spark plug (test) to the coil HV lug.
to ground. if spark is missing from coil. its a bad dizzy or coil
as always wires to same bad..

if spark tests good , try test fuel.
the coil + must have 12v
the coil minus pulses, the dizzy ignitor does that. at that brown white wire.
the whole deal is here.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html

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It is the original 1.6 from the 1989. All plug wires pulsing when cranking with timing light attached. Definitely fuel at the TB throat but plugs appear completely dry. I swappeed an entire running 1989 in to a clean 1993 body. All wiring, ECM etc. The 89 had a bad head gasket when I got it ,had the head redone and renistalled while out of the vehicle. I am at a loss but will keep checking things withyour dignostic pages. If the igniter were bad would I still have the timing light strobing on each plug wire while cranking ?

[fixkick]

first off, if the engine was good, and the spark was good, test fuel would work, ( i bet test fuel fails)
(i do test fuel tests, with fuel pump relay (green socket) pulled,

ok this is a major swap, not just , ran good for 24 year, then died ,yesterday car... ok ,
the 89 EFI is totally different than any 93. but not yours...
a strobe light is not a real test. its will flash prefect with weak spark. only using a real spark plug , proves, spark is right.
spark plugs new, set to .028" and not set to the useless, .045' as set by NGK in the NGK factory? and stock J plugs, not $20 surface fire plugs?
the 89 dont care what body but the harness does. the speedo cluster too, and its harness will short out the spark, feed back.
you need to be more specific on what was swapped, The 93 speedo wires up 2 things quite different, the VSS and the Tacho.
do not mix harnesses, but do ask why , and Ill show you.


if i had this car id....
1: check compression, 155psi is about right for cold motor. (not running) if not , then the belt was timed wrong.
the cam most be timed, at #4 firing and made sure that it is timed correctly and compression is good. then...
and lash set to spec. if not , the valves burn up.

2: then time the dizzy (after making sure the dizzy rotor is not a china rotor that fits on 3 ways, use a Bosch rotor for perfect 1 way fit.)
with the valve cover off during lash set, you turn the crank to TDC 0 mark, is the lash at #1 lifters loose, if not, turn the crank CW 360 degrees.
now the lash are loose on #1 valves. this is true #! firing. (if never loose, then lash was never set right.)
then look at rotor in dizzy. is at at 11pm. ? see photos here.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html
if , not at 11pm, then remove the dizzy and drop it back so it is, there are 13 teeth on the gear. there.
I then time it with strobe. cranking. near zero.
it will now start on test fuel. (for sure)

now try to get injection. working,

if compression is low check lash, if lash good do my sneak-a-peak test. (proves belt is correctly timed)
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html
it will run, soon.
cheers.

It is the original 1.6 from the 1989. All plug wires pulsing when cranking with timing light attached.
Definitely fuel at the TB throat but plugs appear completely dry. I swapped an entire running 1989 in to a clean 1993 body.
All wiring, ECM etc. ( all ?, really?)
The 89 had a bad head gasket when I got it ,had the head redone and reinstalled while out of the vehicle.
I am at a loss, but will keep checking things with your diagnostic pages. It will run, I promise, we can do this 1 step at a time, and will run.
If the igniter were bad would I still have the timing light strobing on each plug wire while cranking ?
[/quote]


the 89 ignitors are known problematic, they like to do things a 91 would never ever do.
in fact, the 91 dizzy , usually never ever fails. (tuned up)
the 89. has 2 parts. the VR device and the ignitor,
the VR gap can be wrong and spark is weak or random
the ignitor likes to fail or ,go bad hot. then work cold.
you need to test spark quality with a real, spark plug. the timing light is for timing. and new timing lights flash great with weak spark.

and the rotor spins CW.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html

the below assumes the owner knows, #1 is the front cylinder, F1,2,3,4R
this #1 below , i like to all 11am location.

---

how to test for spark
use a real fresh new (any brand or heat range , spark plug) gapped to .028"' this car does not HAVE HEI (high energy Ignition,)

http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/how_to...spark.html

check it in all 4 places and at the coil,. the spark must be robust. blue-white flash, not weak, orange and tiny.
like this video shows.

best is to start with a fresh set of Bosch Mag wires. (cap and rotor ) no china "noname " crap ignition parts allowed.

http://www.fixkick.com/videos/neat/neat.mp4

[hoffy30]

You guys are awesome. I really did switch every piece of wiring from 1 to the other. Complete dash assembly with all gauges and wiring. Engine had a rebuild 60,000 miles ago at 5 over. Am starting to question the fuel supply after reading your site. Definitely getting fuel to the throat of the TBI but possibly not at the plugs. Did visually check spark at #1 and it was there but not sure of the quality. Won't be able to go through your list till Monday but will let you know. Thanks again for all your help !

[fixkick]

You guys are awesome. I really did switch every piece of wiring from 1 to the other. Complete dash assembly with all gauges and wiring. Engine had a rebuild 60,000 miles ago at 5 over. Am starting to question the fuel supply after reading your site. Definitely getting fuel to the throat of the TBI but possibly not at the plugs. Did visually check spark at #1 and it was there but not sure of the quality. Won't be able to go through your list till Monday but will let you know. Thanks again for all your help !

great !
you can start any engine, with a no fuel in gas tank
its called test fuel.
ir it dont run on test fuel i's bad compression or bad spark. (pick one, ?)
in fact, you can keep it running on test fuel like this second guy , 2nd video. below.


first scotty ,. (he assumes the engine is good and has full compression, many dont, due to, well, timing belt wrong, etc.
but he is correct. if it can run on test fuel , time to forget the fuel injection. that is why i say pull the fuel pump relay, cant flood any engine with the pump dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064Ilsz8F...ature=fvwp

now see this next guy.

no fuel tank its DRY.
see him and your car and his car make spark the same way, your 89 has STANDalone dizzy spark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...Pm8#t=141s

when i was young, kids would drag cars in gear all over the hood, and it not starting.
they'd ask me, and id to the 3 tests. with 3 tools, and bingo.
compression, spark, fueling. in that order, works best , every time.

did you inspect the crank front snout for damage, and set the 17mm bolt to 94ft/lbs ,as the 1996 TSB states? I call this the day1 inspection ,after brakes and fuel leaks. this is 1st.
if the key or way, strips, the timing marks(all) are useless as can be...totally. and btw, this causes like 90psi compression, not 155+ as normal. this usually retards the cam like crazy.

---

89 engine
89, intake, and throttle body, the TB is quite different in 3 major ways. do not use 93 intake system on 89
keep it all 89, the engine and all wiring. i bet you did but just saying.
btw the 89 ISC burns up a 93 ECU. but you wont see that. as they match.

[hoffy30]

You guys are awesome. I really did switch every piece of wiring from 1 to the other. Complete dash assembly with all gauges and wiring. Engine had a rebuild 60,000 miles ago at 5 over. Am starting to question the fuel supply after reading your site. Definitely getting fuel to the throat of the TBI but possibly not at the plugs. Did visually check spark at #1 and it was there but not sure of the quality. Won't be able to go through your list till Monday but will let you know. Thanks again for all your help !

great !
you can start any engine, with a no fuel in gas tank
its called test fuel.
ir it dont run on test fuel i's bad compression or bad spark. (pick one, ?)
in fact, you can keep it running on test fuel like this second guy , 2nd video. below.

Okay, had a minute and checked compression 60psi on all cylinders. Tells me the cam is timed wrong but I have checked 3 times per directions on this site and would bet money it is correct. All initial timing done while on an engine stand and I took my time although I was using a Haynes manual. Have pulled timing cover and valve cover back off twice and confirmed marks and valve adjustment. What am I missing ?

first scotty ,. (he assumes the engine is good and has full compression, many dont, due to, well, timing belt wrong, etc.
but he is correct. if it can run on test fuel , time to forget the fuel injection. that is why i say pull the fuel pump relay, cant flood any engine with the pump dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064Ilsz8F...ature=fvwp

now see this next guy.

no fuel tank its DRY.
see him and your car and his car make spark the same way, your 89 has STANDalone dizzy spark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...Pm8#t=141s

when i was young, kids would drag cars in gear all over the hood, and it not starting.
they'd ask me, and id to the 3 tests. with 3 tools, and bingo.
compression, spark, fueling. in that order, works best , every time.

did you inspect the crank front snout for damage, and set the 17mm bolt to 94ft/lbs ,as the 1996 TSB states? I call this the day1 inspection ,after brakes and fuel leaks. this is 1st.
if the key or way, strips, the timing marks(all) are useless as can be...totally. and btw, this causes like 90psi compression, not 155+ as normal. this usually retards the cam like crazy.

---

89 engine
89, intake, and throttle body, the TB is quite different in 3 major ways. do not use 93 intake system on 89
keep it all 89, the engine and all wiring. i bet you did but just saying.
btw the 89 ISC burns up a 93 ECU. but you wont see that. as they match.

[hoffy30]

Okay: Started back at square 1.Have assumed that compression was good. Tested it and found 60psi on all cylinders. Tells me I have a timing issue but have checked and rechecked all of my alignment marks. The initial setup was done while on an engine stand although I was using a Haynes manual. Since then have puled cam and timing covers twice to verify marks per your site. Obviously missing something. Am going to remove timing belt and start from scratch using directions on this site. Will keep you posted. Thanks

[fixkick]

OK, no compression,
89 is easy if really and 89 still, it has NO FALSE MARKS in 89
just a titty. on the cam cog spoke. seen on my tbelt pages.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/sprocket1989-8v.jpg

first is the crank snout,
1: always look the first time, at it, did you , then never again. unless crank seal lets go. did you replace the seals?
2: set the crank cog bolt to 94 fl lbs. and never worry again.

you skipped a step here, i have all steps, even those ASSUMED by others to be good. and may not be.
rule one, is the cam is timed at #4 firing, when the cam wheel is titty at 12pm that IS defacto #4 firing,

if the cam is timed, right , then the lash is ALL wrong.

always check compression on all major engine work. that way, you dont burn up valves. or worse.

did you skip step 18?
or step 40?
www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html
the 8v is done quite unlike any 16v. the 8v is done with lash fully loose to , unload the cam bias. (belt tension steps)
then the last is done last. so if all steps are done then lash is good.


or step 2 and 10 here (open belt box, see install sheet)
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/8v-tbelt1w.jpg

[hoffy30]

Timing belt off and starting over. Looking at the valves with cover off and cam dimple at 12:00 #4 exhaust is at the top of the lobe and #4 intake is at the heel. Crank is torqued and lined up at 12:00. #4 piston is at the top of its stroke. Based on this can I assume that the timing marks are correct before reinstalling the t-belt ? There is no way I could have installed the cam incorrectly is there ? Thanks