1998 Tracker - Idle issues and stalling and at my wits end

[Perry]

Fixkick, I humbly request your assistance before I roll my tracker off a cliff!!!!! No but seriously, I'm really glad I found this board. I've been using a lot of the resources you authored to help me learn more about my vehicle and fix the little issues along the way. I was very, very relived to see you are still active somewhere, because I think I may need your level of expertise to get me through this.

So anyway buckle up because this is a hell of a read...

It all starts when I picked up a 1998 tracker, to replace my super rusty 2003. This 1998 is from the desert in the southern US, so it didn't suffer the same salty fate as trackers/sidekicks did here on the island of Newfoundland. It's a 2 door 4x4, 16valve. Has 115k on the clock but it was a tow behind rig, just took the old tow bar off it last week. Previous owner think about 20k is tow miles, and she bought it off someone who did the same thing.

When I test drove it, it started and ran perfect. It had a CEL but it was just a p0135 and p0740 so I wasn't too worried. It's 100% rust free and very clean so I pulled the trigger.

Now the second day I had it, it starts to get this weird stumble at idle. you can feel a little shake, and see the rpm drop for just a second. And the next day it started to stall sometimes when it was put into park or neutral. This is essentially where it is today, even after everything I've done to try and fix it. Some days it's very bad, and some days it hardly ever happens. Today it wasn't so bad, but only because I was trying to take some videos. If I had no camera it would be way worse. I think it's alive.

Currently the tracker is off the road, mainly because I don't want it out in the road salt, but also because I don't like to drive it with the stalling. It will also sometimes stall when you give it a tiny amount (5%) of throttle in gear and quickly let off the throttle, which has lead me to stall on left turns, which could also kill me. So I want to try and fix this before spring.

So here is what I have done so far:

-Spark plugs (gapped to .028")
-PCV valve
-Air filter
-Dist Cap
-Dist rotor
-Repaired exhaust manifold crack (done properly. drilled, preheated, nickle rods, cooldown, also put exhaust putty over weld)
-Upstream o2 sensor
-cleaned the Idle air control valve.

Also did a compression test (#'d from front to back)
- 1=190psi
- 2=180psi
- 3=180psi
- 4=185psi

When I took the plugs out, #1 was black. Stuck open injector I thought, especially considering I got a p0172 code after changing all the above parts (p0135 is fixed now, enters closed loop dead cold in about 30 seconds)

I swapped in a known good injector and fired her up, no change.

Then I went ahead and swapped in the IACV, TSP (whole throttle plate actually, didn't want to mess up TPS), #1 spark plug wire, and the injector harness you guessed it, no change.

I'm not sure what codes will come from this as OBD is still not ready since I disconnected the battery while messing with the above stuff. I'll try see if I can ready it tomorrow.

For the hell of it I went and put the IACV, TPS/plate, #1 injector, plug wire and my injector harness on the parts sidekick I have, you guess it again, runs PERFECT. This rust bucket has 2 year old 10% ethanol 87 crap gas in the tank and it runs perfect, while my good tracker still won't run right. alas I'm at my wits end.

After all this, I found a can a seafoam on the shelf and gave it a whirl, especially after seeing inside my TB. Put about 100 ml in the brake booster vac hose and mixed 10L of gas about 40:1 and put it in (it was almost empty). Can't tell if it made an difference. I am not a professional so I like to try snake oil sometimes :p

I only have a little scan gauge now, but I did pull some values. I'm waiting for my elm327 dongle in the mail to get the real good info like fuel trims and fancy graphs.

Now here is many videos of the issues I'm having, words are great but i feel like some people would rather watch/listen

As it runs today (notice the surge at 0:22): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...VVTjA/view [35s]

As it drives today (great power, shifting): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...Z3bWc/view [35s]

Shifting today(stalls flat on it's face): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...pqR3c/view [30s]

EGR Stall test today, doesn't shut off but it wants too: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...RBdEU/view [1m02s]

Cold-start and warm up, shifting and stalling on feb 13th(WARNING LONG AND BORING): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...RqQ28/view [29m55s]

Hot start, feb 13th(wasn't doing this too bad today,comes and goes): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...J1MlE/view [28s]

Stalling after letting off 55 throttle in gear, late December: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...wyaTQ/view [20s]

Parts sidekick with all the good tracker parts that i thought were causing the issue, running perfect: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...9VUVU/view [1m]


Photos:

plugs on feb 13th, these are new about 2 hours on them
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzqDCf...0RYQ2ozbVE
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzqDCf...mxSb0w5bFU

Serious carbon on throttle plate, cleaned it up
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzqDCf...nR5ZXdCbW8

slight difference in throttle plates. Left is white good tracker, right is parts sidekick.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzqDCf...0FiSE1PMTg

gunk on brand new PCV?: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzqDCf...ktncnB6Ync

But wait, there's more! Bonus WTF story. This white 98 tracker never had daytime running lights (DRLs) since I bought it, but it has the green indicator on the dash that comes turns off when I lift the handbrake and the red brake lights come one, and turns on again when the brake light goes off when I lower the handbrake.

well...

today after messing with the IACV, injector harness, and TPS plate I NOW HAVE DRLS?? How? and then when I was moving it around an hour or 2 later they are OFF AGAIN?!?! There is no way this could be related is there? I hope not...



edit: here is the info from my little scanner while I wait, these were taken after I swapped the parts and connected the battery.
Closed loop (open when WOT, normal?)
ignition 8
intake temp 45f
load 19
map 4.5psi
RPM 800
tps 0
coolant temp 185f

[fixkick]

hello and WELCOME.
the 5 photos at the end can not be seen , my guess lacking google accounts.
wow it stalled one video, going in to neutral, from in driver or reverse, crazy no?>
we can to test to find it, sure scan tool helps.

engine seems ok,, good engine.
its EFI sick (lots of tests)

or EGR sticking open (the stall test works, but defeat it until we fix it,, remove that vacuum line to it, main valve, and Golf TEE the hose so it cant suck air.
make sure the main valve is closed and can not leak exhaust at all.
or ISC sticking. electric. iAC clean with safe cleaners for plastics.


i spark timing ok? with timing freeze jump inserted hot?)
fuel pressure at spec, the FPR love to fail at this age.

scan too show ECT at 180f? or more, full engine temps are first. to check.
key on , parked over night, IAC = ISC BOTH READ NEAR SAME. dig? the will. scan tool test.


the DRL, we can fix easy
I will have to look up year, the under right finder, DRL resistor block was deleted.
the DRL may also go dead, CHarge lamp stuck on, failure
nad all brake lamps same , hand brake, dot4 fluid low, or difff valve sees errors, and brake lamp in cluster glows and DRL shuts down.
also burned pins on DRL module is top failure.

[fixkick]

more later, when i can watch longer videos, it stalls here now,,(weak wifi on beach)
we can find it.... im sure.

[fixkick]

stumbles.?
why not put a set of new, BOSCH mag wires on it?, , this is like the best thing you can do ,for weak spark suzuki.!!!!!
BOSCH 16valve = # 09360 ,or : # NGK8120 or beck
chasing bad spark is impossible, cant burn fuel with bad spark. so,,, (knock off that DUCK 1 , now, IMHO )
what is on the road, performance". (ok or ,stumbles?. is WOT good up hills ok,. accel ok?
When i saw D>N or R> N gear shift STALLS, I was GOBSMACKEd,! If face palm"

In my mind, you take the load off the engine and it stalls, I think that is impossible. but as we see NOT. what is that.?
The progression, of events(P/N means park /neutral)
The TRANNY P/N switch tells the PCM hey PCM no need for in gear idle profiles (aggressive) back to neutral/park profile via that PCM /TCM park wire input.
This PCM then goes to idle profile, in P/N mode out of gear mode. and regulates, idle at 800.rpm (ac/off)
so what can cause that, turns out not many.
classic failure 1:
#1 is TPS idle switch is not calibrated nor closed and at 0v at idle, (are the TV cables set 12mm slack ( per spec?)
ISC stuck (electr, iac) stuck but how, it was wide open (near) in Drive. how can it close more (does that going Neutral) and goes to far and sticks closed, seem "crazy"nahhhhhhh

my guess, is it starved for fuel or flooded. (not starve for aiir) id have used a hot right foot to prevent stall, can you ?, easy ,hard, or impossible)
keep in mind the human driving is just and effective ISC as the real ISC ,you can add air at any time with right foot.

before i discuss, EFI, lets to Day1 checks on all sidekicks\
1: crank pulley at 94ft/lbs ,that 17mm nut, with a/t box, most these cars, nobody reads the TSB on this or fails to do it know knowing how to lock a flywheel
none the the less, lots of engines sitting in barn, wrecked (crank snout destroyed)
my page just for that silly 17mm bolt is here, allways from SUnday
http://www.fixkick.com/engine/myclutch/f...locks.html

next'up, you have 2 door, did you know that all 2 doors, sufferer from (bad fuel pump ground) seems so, and with salt belt roads , 10x this.
I have a page for that too. and the under hood fuse boxes from H3LL same reasons
see G402? (ground)

http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/PUMP/de....html#G402

H3LL: photo 1 here
http://www.fixkick.com/electrical-failure.html

more simple fixes checks on G16bs all.
does engine stumble with gas cap in hand?
does rapping the MAP at idle. change RPM (screw driver bland in hand rap MAF with handle gently,taP ,tap? must not change rpm hot engine'
ever clean maf (from 6" afar , never close using maf cleaner spray?_
is that main induction pipe (top big) free of all air leaks, look closed check it carefully.
no new fuel filter.?

if engine is good, seems so (if spark timing not off cam belt did not slip)
if sparks good, Mag wires do that,
then its EFI


EFI needs things in this order, to function correctly
1: fuel pressure at spec. 30-37 PSI idle. (lower # is at higher altitudes) and at WOT, it drops about 6psi, from idle. if not FPR is shot. end story
2: MAF is ok, its the key stone part, if good all is good mostly... it sets all fuel rates. all the time,02 trims
3: at idle,stumbles only small vacuum leaks.? even vac chose cracks, cracks suck are and engine goes lean. and stubles.
at high RPM the small cracks are hidden, mostly
4tart engine ,it reaches 180f fast, say few miles,. some take 20 miles and are bad, some never reach 180f ever, and all are bad
5:ECt matches, 180f, scanned. hot. does it? so easy to do on any scan tool.. bam 180, mines 195, better mpg there. 1/2mpg? but engine loves it. AS DOES COOLING IN THE RAD CORE.
6: IAT is not very important, in fact 2 years, have nonE. 92/93'
7: o2 is not it, its off line,accelerating.....
8: i see the CEL glowing all the time if yes, the PCM will be in limphome and guess what idle controls are shut down in limphome, fix that first, do not ignore the CEL,, 740s is trans, p07xxx are all trans and not engine.
9: scan the car as it fails, collect ,DTC ERRORS, PENDINGS, FREEZE FRAME DATA AND IF CAN' LIVE PID SENSOR DATA.



that is all for this morning
ill try to get all videos to play, and not stall today.
and wait for you driving report, tell all it does ok, and now ok, hot .cold,engine, and all gears,or flat ground on hills and WOT.
i call that the good the bad and the ugly,paints a total picture of whats going on

good luck!




links to mag, there many but i see sales on bosch all the time, as low as $30!
mags
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-09360-Premi...B000BYENGC


http://www.ebay.com/itm/09360-Bosch-Spar...Swn9lXJ-j6




BECK/ARNLEY 1756081 (good price on mag) mag. beck catalog shows, spec, MAG core 500ohm/ft (this # is proof)

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chevr...e+set,7224


NGK 8120 $46

NGK Ignition Wire Set
SKU: #SE94
ITEM : # NGK8120
BRAND : NGK

Part Specifications

Core Material: Variable Pitch Ferrite Magnetic Core!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is what you want,MM be damned.

[fixkick]

VIDEO 1 , SCAN WHEN IT DOES THAT. SEE WHY?
VIDEO 2, SHOWS ENGINE SEEMS to have full power
vidoe 3, shows to Neutral stall , scan it as it did that/ right foot save it? shows to me idle controls dead. here. TPS not calibrated?
video 4: EGR test seems ok
video 5 , 1/2 hour video, my wifi goes tits up.
, engine temp hidden.. but we see it go to idle controls active and 800rpm(spec) about 16min idle goes out of control,TPS fails(idle switch)is throttle cable not set to12mm slack spec?
that scan is, omg wonky toy. 4.5maf what in the world is that.? 4.5vdc is bad maf, 4.5gr/sec (spec ilde is 1.5–4.0 grams per second)
zero tps, (a real scan tool ) shows this as, % throttle angle and raw volts. 0 is crazy. imo. but who knows, whats in that toy,
186f ECT, we have a winner on ECT and thermostat !!!
14.1v the alternator is NOT dead, good.
55f air temp, IAT, seems ok for your local weather

FPR is uselss on this car
the GPH, 0.23 is injector rates, nice feature but is based off closed loop modes and fuel trim.
11 degrees advance, . 11 from 5 ? or 11 total, only the tool maker knows. most tools do the math this way static 8 + 3 added =11.
seems ok there, but does 3000 rpm in park go to like 35degrees, ? as it should? no load on engine, advance is super aggressive.


video 6? is horrid, sounds like the engine trying to start backwards, as in spark timing way the hell wrong. timing belt slip , do that standard spark test? with the gun?
its struggling like heck here.
lack of air (isc stick closed hot) add 5% throttle here, start easy now???????? use that right foot to simulate a good ISC.
flooding
when it does start, the idle is wrong. it must go to like 1500 rpm then drop to 800 and hold like a rock
for sure that is gross misfiring, spark wires bad>?
is think i see the PCM hunt the ISC here, but can not hit 800 so it hunts, as all old kicks do, if it cant hits spec, hot RPMl (illegal today to hunt, ask toyota?)
so my guess is
TPS not calibrated
50% duty cycle is way off... and ISC can not hit, 800rpm hot. so open the bleed screw,say 1/2 turn CCW.

ok ilde controls are all wrong
but that is normal on a bad running engine,after IDLE controls are last thing to work right and last thing to calibrate.

TPS idle switch no closed
in limphome CEL glowing
someone screwed the idle bleed all the way in, evil that, it's duty cycle setting to 50% we turn the screw at 800rpm hot for the duty check hitting 50%
its ok to unscrew it to see if the ISC wakes, up, just count turns.. and s a waste time, in limphome or TPS switch not closed

at that last videos saw 800 fail. and the PCM went to hunt mode (or lean bog)
and id press throttle now, if i can hit 800 to 1000, easy,, then we know its starving for air, and the duty cycle was set wrong by the bad man....lol
if that is all true.then unscrew the bleed. fix it? 800 now. PRNDL, shift,and all positions give 800.? HOT all this is HOT. only
that is what i think, based on videos only.

[fixkick]

ever do this.
unbolt the distributor basebolt ever, if yes, when and why.
answer no:
connect the timing lamp, strobe.#1 spark lead
hot engines
idling ok
timing freeze jumper in place.(all years covered,i hope here)
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML
point to the scale on Tbelt cover, 0 mark is 0 degrees. to the left is advanced, some are 5deg BTDC others 8. (canada?)(hood sticker on ours tells this secret)
if timing is way off?, or way retarded, the cam belt slipped.
double trouble that.
means all else above is wasted effort (cept that 17mm crank bolt)

[Perry]

Thank for taking the time to looks at this problem. Here they are uploaded as attachments (small files).

Plugs from last week
       

carbon on throttle plate
   

Original TPS on left, one off parts sidekick on right.
   

Brand new pcv valve goop.
   

[Perry]

You are very technical fixkick, so I will try my best to keep up. I'll address what you've said so far best I can. I'm about to go back at it after some lunch.

or EGR sticking open (the stall test works, but defeat it until we fix it,, remove that vacuum line to it, main valve, and Golf TEE the hose so it cant suck air.
make sure the main valve is closed and can not leak exhaust at all.
or ISC sticking. electric. iAC clean with safe cleaners for plastics.

I'll try the egr today, and golf tee the vacuum hose and post results


i spark timing ok? with timing freeze jump inserted hot?)
fuel pressure at spec, the FPR love to fail at this age.

I'm not sure how to check spark timing, what is a freeze jump? I can borrow a timing gun if that's what you mean.


stumbles.?
why not put a set of new, BOSCH mag wires on it?, , this is like the best thing you can do ,for weak spark suzuki.!!!!!
BOSCH 16valve = # 09360 ,or : # NGK8120 or beck
chasing bad spark is impossible, cant burn fuel with bad spark. so,,, (knock off that DUCK 1 , now, IMHO )

I ordered NGK8120 back on feb 3rd, should be here today/tomorrow (they are in halifax now, big storms slowed delivery down)


what is on the road, performance". (ok or ,stumbles?. is WOT good up hills ok,. accel ok?

excellent, quicker than I expected a 1.6L 4 would ever be. NO MISSING at all when WOT just power, pulls great. I've had it on the highway for 15+ miles at 70mph and it was fine even when this issue first came up.


my guess, is it starved for fuel or flooded. (not starve for aiir) id have used a hot right foot to prevent stall, can you ?, easy ,hard, or impossible)
keep in mind the human driving is just and effective ISC as the real ISC ,you can add air at any time with right foot.

Yes, If I give it throttle while shifting into park or neutral it will not stall. The stall can always be saved by applying more throttle. But that's not how this is supposed to work, and I'm too slow to save the stall many times.


In my mind, you take the load off the engine and it stalls, I think that is impossible. but as we see NOT. what is that.?
The progression, of events(P/N means park /neutral)
The TRANNY P/N switch tells the PCM hey PCM no need for in gear idle profiles (aggressive) back to neutral/park profile via that PCM /TCM park wire input.

Yes, when the load comes off the engine it stalls. It stalls from gear to park/neutral, but also when you let off the throttle while crawling in gear (see video, 7th from top). Is there a way to test these signals? Could the aggressive idle profiles for gear be flooding out the more relaxed P/N profiles?


1: crank pulley at 94ft/lbs ,that 17mm nut, with a/t box, most these cars, nobody reads the TSB on this or fails to do it know knowing how to lock a flywheel

I plan to check this when I do the timing belt which is coming in the mail with the NGK wires. I've been working my way through your 60k service article.


next'up, you have 2 door, did you know that all 2 doors, sufferer from (bad fuel pump ground) seems so, and with salt belt roads , 10x this.
I have a page for that too. and the under hood fuse boxes from H3LL same reasons
see G402? (ground)

I'll clean this up today

more simple fixes checks on G16bs all.
does engine stumble with gas cap in hand?
does rapping the MAP at idle. change RPM (screw driver bland in hand rap MAF with handle gently,taP ,tap? must not change rpm hot engine'
ever clean maf (from 6" afar , never close using maf cleaner spray?_
is that main induction pipe (top big) free of all air leaks, look closed check it carefully.
no new fuel filter.?

I'll try the MAP out today, MAF has been cleaned with Contact cleaner (light spray), top induction pipe is tight, fuel filter was done by P.O., have receipt for work done at a shop. I have another brand new high quality one coming in the mail along with the NGK wires and timing belt kit for piece of mind.

I'm going to try test the fuel pressure today or tomorrow, it seems like the logical next step. I'm at sea level. I've gone over the vacuum lines 100 times now. they are all perfect.


video 6? is horrid, sounds like the engine trying to start backwards, as in spark timing way the hell wrong. timing belt slip , do that standard spark test? with the gun?
its struggling like heck here.
lack of air (isc stick closed hot) add 5% throttle here, start easy now???????? use that right foot to simulate a good ISC.

My compression is at least 180psi after a 5 minute warm up, dry. Timing must be good no? If I use my right foot to start it will start and catch at first flick of the key

at that last videos saw 800 fail. and the PCM went to hunt mode (or lean bog)
and id press throttle now, if i can hit 800 to 1000, easy,, then we know its starving for air, and the duty cycle was set wrong by the bad man....lol
if that is all true.then unscrew the bleed. fix it? 800 now. PRNDL, shift,and all positions give 800.? HOT all this is HOT. only
that is what i think, based on videos only.

Not sure if you mean the very last video posted, but that is actually my rusty parts sidekick, with my IAC, TPS, #1 injector and plug wire on it. As you can see it doesn't stumble or stall when shifting. This sidekick is rusted to bits and has a forever p0102 and p0463 code. runs good though (but high idle).


ever do this.
unbolt the distributor basebolt ever, if yes, when and why.
answer no:
connect the timing lamp, strobe.#1 spark lead
hot engines
idling ok
timing freeze jumper in place.(all years covered,i hope here)
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/IGN-FREEZE.HTML
point to the scale on Tbelt cover, 0 mark is 0 degrees. to the left is advanced, some are 5deg BTDC others 8. (canada?)(hood sticker on ours tells this secret)
if timing is way off?, or way retarded, the cam belt slipped.
double trouble that.
means all else above is wasted effort (cept that 17mm crank bolt)

I've never touched the distributor, except for the cap and rotor. The problem was there before I touched that. The Distributor and many other parts on this vehicle have tamper proof paint on them around the bolts/screws. So I don't think it's ever been messed with. I'll fiddle with the jumper today/tomorrow and see if I can get a timing light.



Thanks for all your help today, I'll report back with more updates. Please reply if you want anymore videos or pictures of certain situations/parts

[Perry]

Today I managed to knock a few things off the list.

I cleaned up the fuel pump ground behind the tail light. Sanded it down and cleaned all the connections, giving it a nice coat of dielectric grease too.
Did the same with the fuse box. The fuse box was much cleaner but i greased it up anyway to protect it.

I pulled the hose off the EGR, and blocked it with a bold (not a golfer). I noticed no change when blocking it off. Also, it's puffing out exhaust, not sucking air. Is this normal? maybe I had the wrong hose. Here is a photo.    

I tried tapping the MAP, no stumbles or misfires when I do that.

I got my hands on the timing gun today, but I ran out of time before I could get the timing cover off. I have all the 10mm bolts off, and the fan/shroud, as well as the 5 8mm bolts holding on the crank accessory pulley. Should have this finished by tomorrow to confirm the spark timing. I assume this is the freeze thing?    

Can't get my hands on a multi port fuel pressure tester, not looking to spend 130 bucks on one either. and they were on sale last week

Also, here is my hood sticker, just for confirmation.    


Overall it wasn't too bad today. Over the course of an hour or so fiddling with it it only stalled twice. Here is a video of the weird stalling it goes in gear https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzqDCfp...sp=sharing [1m]. It catches it's self, but just barely. Watch what is does at 12 seconds.

I also have another cold start to warm up video, with a quick drive around the block video. With an outside temp of 5c/41f it took about 8 minutes of idling to get down to 800rpm. I won't upload this one unless someone asks, it's boring as usual.

[fixkick]

cute the hood sticker shows the timing freeze pins? nice and 5deg, BTDC
yes your photo is the DLC, for freeze.

all sounds great your tests.
pvc shows water from short runs,
if engine is hot and drops below 800 rpm
turn the bleed screw, (top of TB rear ,under black cap) 1 turn CCw, SEE IF ISC WAKES UP. FROM SLEEP THIS ADDS AIR.
If that fails, check idle switch for 0v, TPS.
tps pin 2 to ground. using dmm meter, volts. key on. dont need to be running.
0v = idle
pin 1 is bottom pin

The bad idle deal
when you tickle the right toe as the RPM falls below (spec 800) a tiny amount now ,causes rpm to rise tells me the EGR is not stuck and that the engine wants air.
is cylinder 1 still running rich, and turning the spark tip black.... if yes, that is serious. sounds like injector or spark bad. there.
if there is no misfire, at idle then check idle switch for closure 0 volts, and if ok, set the bleed screw valve at turn out.
i can really hear engine well enough at idle drop to judge what its doing.
happy trails