1991 Vitara G16A frigid

[jwunsch]

Oh boy.. seems the code 13 (o2 sensor) comes up everytime I manage to drive the car to normal operating temps. So basically over 158F for it to measure the o2 sensor.

Can the ecu give fault 13 as the temps are going somewhat up and down. Should I leave it to be like that (and avoid driving) until the fan clutch arrives?

Measure with multimeter that there is connection between the wire/connector that goes to ecu and ground?

Any idea how to debug that. Its new generic sensor (has quite long cord, maybe cut it shorter?).

Went to suzuki today.. they dont have the original part anymore. Bosch part is again US order it seems.. ie 20$ for the part, 50$ for shipping + customs.

[fixkick]

Oh boy.. seems the code 13 (o2 sensor) comes up everytime I manage to drive the car to normal operating temps. So basically over 158F for it to measure the o2 sensor.

Can the ecu give fault 13 as the temps are going somewhat up and down. Should I leave it to be like that (and avoid driving) until the fan clutch arrives?

Measure with multimeter that there is connection between the wire/connector that goes to ecu and ground?

Any idea how to debug that. Its new generic sensor (has quite long cord, maybe cut it shorter?).

Went to suzuki today.. they dont have the original part anymore. Bosch part is again US order it seems.. ie 20$ for the part, 50$ for shipping + customs.

well nothing can be worse for EFI if the thermostat (and friends) can not do their job,  nothing but chaos can happen.
nothing else matters,  fix 180f make it hold there like a rock ,just like on all EFI cars.

does not all stores sell BOSCH sensors,  never heard  one say no ever.  are you off the grid ? (one guy here posts 200 miles from northpole, super off the grid) and on an ISLAND out there wow.

where are you,  ?  take a world Globe, and make a fist and show what end of what continent you are on/?// parts can be hard to buy in some places, like Vietnam and others Nepal.

im in texas, or could say, im south USA central zone. or just south USA, and not show exactly where. (0r Alaska or KISKA)

there many 02 sensors that fit, suzuki never made one ever. the buy them and sell them for 5 times retail..  20 = 100 bucks.
my 02  sensor page shows that. and 4 brands too... even generics work,. even 3 wire car to 4 wire sensor tricks here.


https://fixkick.com/sensors/OxyGen_sensor_help.html

this is the 3 wire sensor right? (usa is , others not) Bosch 15701

calif is 4 wire. !



ecat
https://www.boschautoparts.com/en/auto/o...rtID=15701

[fixkick]

mine ran very good with the 195F stat, (option)
the easy fix in stages, lacking parts, correct.?
is to get an electric fan off wrecked car and add 1 toggle switch, if you need fan action , (be only at a stop sign)
then flip the switch,
but the coolant will not ever go below 180f is 108F stat. it can go above only not moving car. mostly. then flip the switch if it does..
The engine must not go below 180f on an hot running fully warmed up engine.
the fan clutch also seized wastes fuel and power, and makes too much noise,
You already know the Radiator is over cooling the engine, card board proven. (only bad STAT or FAN clutch is cause)

[jwunsch]

mine ran very good with the 195F stat, (option)
the easy fix  in stages, lacking parts, correct.?
is to get  an electric fan off  wrecked car and add 1 toggle switch,  if  you need fan action , (be only at a stop sign)
then flip the switch,
but the coolant will not ever go below 180f is 108F stat.  it can go above only not moving car. mostly. then flip the switch if it does..
The engine must not go below 180f on an hot running fully warmed up engine.
the fan clutch also seized wastes fuel and power, and makes too much noise,  
You already know the Radiator is over cooling the engine, card board proven.  (only bad STAT or  FAN clutch is cause)

Thanks for info again. I will try now with the 180F stat until fan clutch and new o2 sensor arrives. I would prefer 190F stat in this climate, but I know a lot of cars running just fine with 180F. Will get new 190F for spring when I intend to flush the whole cooling system. Not fun to play with cooling fluids now that its freezing.. fingers get cold and stiff in 15 minutes.

I managed to find Bosch (11027) o2 sensor from Estonia, no customs. Also lists "Vitara (ET, AT) 1988-1991 | G16a 8v" as compatible car.

Live in Finland, Kerava (30k pop) quite near Helsinki. Not sure why the local big internet page enabled dealers like motonet/biltemat etc don't have that stupid bosch o2 sensor. Locally have like 1 carparts store + a few dealers, but none dealing with suzuki. A lot more if I start driving around... seems I gotta start picking betters stores. I haven't had old car's for 15 years, during that time all those store brands I used to know have vanished. :F

(link to location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/04200+...25.1020378 )

Current o2 sensor might be what ever shit... it does not even mention any brand on the package.. it just has some motonet specific part# (their own). Motonet's webpage picture has stamped "intermotor" but not their part number. 

Plan now to wait the fan clutch from USA, bosch o2 sensor from Estonia and then replace both.

Thank you again.. will report my findings back in end of Oct or beginning of Nov (estimated delivery for the fan clutch is 26th Oct).

[jwunsch]

Allright. Took a few weeks to find time to replace fan clutch and "what ever lambda with bosch lambda".

After removing fan clutch, it was really stiff compared to the new one. Neither of the freewheel very well, but old and new one differ like night and day. Bosch lambda had some kind of grey paste on the threads, which the unknown b$ brand did not.

After startup no fan rattle like before.

Took a quite long test drive in following phases. (50% of the RAD still blocked by cardboard).

1) Cold engine startup, from suburb (less than 1 km) to road, about 3 miles (5km) @ 50 mph (80km) to high way.
2) 12 miles ( 20 km) @ 60 mph ( 100km/h ) at highway.
- Cabin heat gauge was at 1/2 of the scale
- IR gun gives around 167F (75C) from stat housing.
3) 12 miles ( 20 km( @ 50 mph (80km/h) back on the country road next to above mentioned highway
- Cabin heat gauge came down to about 1/3 scale
- IR gun gives same 167F (75C) form stat housing
4) about 5 miles (8km) town cruising with several stop lights etc
- Cabin heat gayge came down almost the gap between Cold and "normal".. say 2-3mm (0.0787401575 inches) above the gap between C and normal.
- IR gun gives 165-167F (72-75C) from stat housing

After phase 1 idle rpm was allways OK.

No CEL light.

Conclusions.
- Bad fan clutch
- Bad lambda

Suspections about cabin/dash temp gauge. In this -91 Vitara for Swedish market with G16A engine the gauge seems to work logically compared to engine load. Thus I suspect it does actually measure temperature from somewhere else than stat housing. And most probably ECU reads the stat housing as I had always good idle around 800 RPM even tho the dash gauge was going anywhere between nearly cold and 1/2 of the scale.

Suggestions: If you live in country with winter temps (temp goes 5-30 below freezing), 80C ( 167F ) STAT is b$. I am going to the 88/90 (190/194F) STAT when I can find it somewhere.

Thank you fixkick for your info and help.

== EDIT ==

Ach.. Forgot the outside temp.

On the afternoon test drive outside temp was 2C (35.6F).

[fixkick]

Allright. Took a few weeks to find time to replace fan clutch and "what ever lambda with bosch lambda".

After removing fan clutch, it was really stiff compared to the new one. Neither of the freewheel very well, but old and new one differ like night and day. Bosch lambda had some kind of grey paste on the threads, which the unknown b$ brand did not.

I'd bet any 28 year old fan clutch on earth runs right, how could it?

After startup no fan rattle like before. (my gwad the bearings are bad too,,,, but fully 100% expected after billions of spins in 28 years)

Took a quite long test drive in following phases. (50% of the RAD still blocked by cardboard).
Keep in mind the stock gauges has no "C" numbers on it, it is only there to tell you, See yesterday I was ok but NOT NOW ! the gauge is TOY GRADE,  (it does work for sure)
NO OUTDOOR TEMPS STATED,  20C,   0C   -50C? what?

1) Cold engine startup, from suburb (less than 1 km) to road, about 3 miles (5km) @ 50 mph (80km) to high way.
2) 12 miles ( 20 km) @ 60 mph ( 100km/h ) at highway.
- Cabin heat gauge was at 1/2 of the scale, (mine never moved off center on all  3 cars I had)
- IR gun gives around 167F (75C) from stat housing. (well this always reads tiny bit low, heat sinking errors)
3) 12 miles ( 20 km( @ 50 mph (80km/h) back on the country road next to above mentioned highway
- Cabin heat gauge came down to about 1/3 scale (means thermostat closed and RAD IS AT SIBERIAN TEMPS)means thermostat is out of  control. (needs more cardboard LOL)
- IR gun gives same 167F (75C) form stat housing (my guess you stopped and engine cooling recovered. sure.... as expected as car is not moving now.
4) about 5 miles (8km) town cruising with several stop lights etc
- Cabin heat gauge came down almost the gap between Cold and "normal".. say 2-3mm (0.12 inches) above the gap between C and normal.
- IR gun gives 165-167F (72-75C) from stat housing(car is parked and rad warms up, not moving and thermostat wakes up and bingo ,normal)

After phase 1 idle rpm was allways OK.

No CEL light.

Conclusions.
- Bad fan clutch
- Bad lambda

Suspections about cabin/dash temp gauge. In this -91 Vitara for Swedish market with G16A engine the gauge seems to work logically compared to engine load. Thus I suspect it does actually measure temperature from somewhere else than stat housing. And most probably ECU reads the stat housing as I had always good idle around 800 RPM even tho the dash gauge was going anywhere between nearly cold and 1/2 of the scale.

Suggestions: If you live in country with winter temps (temp goes 5-30 below freezing), 80C ( 167F ) STAT is b$. I am going to the 88/90 (190/194F) STAT when I can find it somewhere.

Thank you fixkick for your info and help.

91vitara, not in USA, but  Swedish market coded in fire wall VIN tag. code E17 = Sweden and only parts for E17 should be used on this car,  not other markets, oK
the code 24 seen here is CODe market E24  see how I have you tag marked,? 

The G16A is 8valve engine with 8valve, intake MAnifold and all sold that year have 3 heat sensors .
2 are on the thermostat well.  and 1 far far rear for AC engine overheat that shuts AC down 100% if the engine overheats, the FSM covers this, buy FSM? used?

the dash gauge water temp has the 1 wire sensor on the thermostat well,  if you pull the wire key on warm engine, the gauge goes dead.  proof for sure that I told you as fact.

rule #2, is when the engine warms up 100% ';and hits 180F (stat markings dictates)  the gauge must not go up or down , while driving ever. (steady is NORM)
if it goes up that means thermostat is bad (stuck) or you have cooling tubes in the RAD clogged, or other reasons, even water pump impellers missing happens.
Any time the thermostat loses control , the cooling systems bad. no ifs, ands or buts.

That includes 10 milliion bugs in the RAD front. or AC condenser front, which ever is most front, now
(said all that for other readers).


in your  case the fan was dead.  simple and cave man easy cure, replace it or upgrade it or whatever,. works or works better.



all that is normal.. you report NOW,  but for a fact some folks in Siberia, run  pull up window shades in front of the RAD, as temps go to -50c the even have to pull the shade mostly up.

My buddy in Alaska , a full, ASE, and pilot (he flies to work in tiny Cessna) they  dont turn off the engine at all in dead winter,  or they will never start up,. for sure diesels.
even with 2 doubled up huge batteries,. yah.
On one back-hoe , they sprayed the engine with expanding foam . just to get the thermostats to work.  or it ran frigid full time. and nasty burn of fuel.
He works  for the state, and does all heavy machinery there.
Including RAD blocks with card board or better.
I love Listening to him on topic of ENGINES AND -50C (-70c is record there)

Id play more with cardboard, I would.   looks like you are on a ROLL!

[jwunsch]

Allright. Took a few weeks to find time to replace fan clutch and "what ever lambda with bosch lambda".

After removing fan clutch, it was really stiff compared to the new one. Neither of the freewheel very well, but old and new one differ like night and day. Bosch lambda had some kind of grey paste on the threads, which the unknown b$ brand did not.

I'd bet any 28 year old fan clutch on earth runs right, how could it?

After startup no fan rattle like before. (my gwad the bearings are bad too,,,, but fully 100% expected after billions of spins in 28 years)

Took a quite long test drive in following phases. (50% of the RAD still blocked by cardboard).
Keep in mind the stock gauges has no "C" numbers on it, it is only there to tell you, See yesterday I was ok but NOT NOW ! the gauge is TOY GRADE,  (it does work for sure)
NO OUTDOOR TEMPS STATED,  20C,   0C   -50C? what?

1) Cold engine startup, from suburb (less than 1 km) to road, about 3 miles (5km) @ 50 mph (80km) to high way.
2) 12 miles ( 20 km) @ 60 mph ( 100km/h ) at highway.
- Cabin heat gauge was at 1/2 of the scale, (mine never moved off center on all  3 cars I had)
- IR gun gives around 167F (75C) from stat housing. (well this always reads tiny bit low, heat sinking errors)
3) 12 miles ( 20 km( @ 50 mph (80km/h) back on the country road next to above mentioned highway
- Cabin heat gauge came down to about 1/3 scale (means thermostat closed and RAD IS AT SIBERIAN TEMPS)means thermostat is out of  control. (needs more cardboard LOL)
- IR gun gives same 167F (75C) form stat housing (my guess you stopped and engine cooling recovered. sure.... as expected as car is not moving now.
4) about 5 miles (8km) town cruising with several stop lights etc
- Cabin heat gauge came down almost the gap between Cold and "normal".. say 2-3mm (0.12 inches) above the gap between C and normal.
- IR gun gives 165-167F (72-75C) from stat housing(car is parked and rad warms up, not moving and thermostat wakes up and bingo ,normal)

After phase 1 idle rpm was allways OK.

No CEL light.

Conclusions.
- Bad fan clutch
- Bad lambda

Suspections about cabin/dash temp gauge. In this -91 Vitara for Swedish market with G16A engine the gauge seems to work logically compared to engine load. Thus I suspect it does actually measure temperature from somewhere else than stat housing. And most probably ECU reads the stat housing as I had always good idle around 800 RPM even tho the dash gauge was going anywhere between nearly cold and 1/2 of the scale.

Suggestions: If you live in country with winter temps (temp goes 5-30 below freezing), 80C ( 167F ) STAT is b$. I am going to the 88/90 (190/194F) STAT when I can find it somewhere.

Thank you fixkick for your info and help.

91vitara, not in USA, but  Swedish market coded in fire wall VIN tag. code E17 = Sweden and only parts for E17 should be used on this car,  not other markets, oK
the code 24 seen here is CODe market E24  see how I have you tag marked,? 

The G16A is 8valve engine with 8valve, intake MAnifold and all sold that year have 3 heat sensors .
2 are on the thermostat well.  and 1 far far rear for AC engine overheat that shuts AC down 100% if the engine overheats, the FSM covers this, buy FSM? used?

the dash gauge water temp has the 1 wire sensor on the thermostat well,  if you pull the wire key on warm engine, the gauge goes dead.  proof for sure that I told you as fact.

rule #2, is when the engine warms up 100% ';and hits 180F (stat markings dictates)  the gauge must not go up or down , while driving ever. (steady is NORM)
if it goes up that means thermostat is bad (stuck) or you have cooling tubes in the RAD clogged, or other reasons, even water pump impellers missing happens.
Any time the thermostat loses control , the cooling systems bad. no ifs, ands or buts.

That includes 10 milliion bugs in the RAD front. or AC condenser front, which ever is most front, now
(said all that for other readers).


in your  case the fan was dead.  simple and cave man easy cure, replace it or upgrade it or whatever,. works or works better.



all that is normal.. you report NOW,  but for a fact some folks in Siberia, run  pull up window shades in front of the RAD, as temps go to -50c the even have to pull the shade mostly up.

My buddy in Alaska , a full, ASE, and pilot (he flies to work in tiny Cessna) they  dont turn off the engine at all in dead winter,  or they will never start up,. for sure diesels.
even with 2 doubled up huge batteries,. yah.
On one back-hoe , they sprayed the engine with expanding foam . just to get the thermostats to work.  or it ran frigid full time. and nasty burn of fuel.
He works  for the state, and does all heavy machinery there.
Including RAD blocks with card board or better.
I love Listening to him on topic of ENGINES AND -50C (-70c is record there)

Id play more with cardboard, I would.   looks like you are on a ROLL!

Yeah my plate info was in the first post (really old):

"
 - Plate in engine compartment.
  - TYPE: ETA01V
  - LAK625K17 (SWE, car has actually been sold in neighbor country FIN)
"

I have ordered FSM 2 months ago.. for number of excuses I still dont have it (annoying dealer.. sigh they already lost one copy).  So I downloaded "Haynes 1986-2001 Samurai Sidekick X-90 Vitara Tracker Complete.pdf"

Luckily I live in south Finland.. for us the worst at winter is usually -25C - -30C and only for a week or two. In Lapland (North Finland) there has been a record of -51,5C, but usual winter goes only to -32C - - 35C (problematic enough for diesels). Which is why its very hard to find a used car there without electric engine block heater or webasto type diesel heater so that you can pre heat engine before startup. (Also its common here work generators/aggregates to have a heater block where you blow with natural gas torch for 15-30 minutes before startup. Dont need to keep starting so long and can manage with less batteries).

I have to debug the temperature gauge variations more later on. Now the car heads to a welder to get a few rust spots fixed (tomorrow). I have access to place where I can weld only at summer for now. So had to buy the work.

Anyhow at least it does not throw up error codes anymore so there is hope to pass yearly vehicle inspection so that the car is allowed for public roads. Also I intend to replace higher temperature stat there just in the hope to get more heat into the cabin. 

Nice to hear about those window shades. We were already thinking about those with my GF, now that someone else also uses those. I will definitely go to find some used shades and tinker them in front of the RAD. Lasts longer than cardboard and can be adjusted. Anyhow if I go off-road in the summer the RAD probably needs to be fully clear or its going to overheat.

Thanks again for the extra info. Hope this thread helps someone else at some point.

[fixkick]

Allright. Took a few weeks to find time to replace fan clutch and "what ever lambda with bosch lambda".

After removing fan clutch, it was really stiff compared to the new one. Neither of the freewheel very well, but old and new one differ like night and day. Bosch lambda had some kind of grey paste on the threads, which the unknown b$ brand did not.

I'd bet any 28 year old fan clutch on earth runs right, how could it?

After startup no fan rattle like before. (my gwad the bearings are bad too,,,, but fully 100% expected after billions of spins in 28 years)

Took a quite long test drive in following phases. (50% of the RAD still blocked by cardboard).
Keep in mind the stock gauges has no "C" numbers on it, it is only there to tell you, See yesterday I was ok but NOT NOW ! the gauge is TOY GRADE,  (it does work for sure)
NO OUTDOOR TEMPS STATED,  20C,   0C   -50C? what?

1) Cold engine startup, from suburb (less than 1 km) to road, about 3 miles (5km) @ 50 mph (80km) to high way.
2) 12 miles ( 20 km) @ 60 mph ( 100km/h ) at highway.
- Cabin heat gauge was at 1/2 of the scale, (mine never moved off center on all  3 cars I had)
- IR gun gives around 167F (75C) from stat housing. (well this always reads tiny bit low, heat sinking errors)
3) 12 miles ( 20 km( @ 50 mph (80km/h) back on the country road next to above mentioned highway
- Cabin heat gauge came down to about 1/3 scale (means thermostat closed and RAD IS AT SIBERIAN TEMPS)means thermostat is out of  control. (needs more cardboard LOL)
- IR gun gives same 167F (75C) form stat housing (my guess you stopped and engine cooling recovered. sure.... as expected as car is not moving now.
4) about 5 miles (8km) town cruising with several stop lights etc
- Cabin heat gauge came down almost the gap between Cold and "normal".. say 2-3mm (0.12 inches) above the gap between C and normal.
- IR gun gives 165-167F (72-75C) from stat housing(car is parked and rad warms up, not moving and thermostat wakes up and bingo ,normal)

After phase 1 idle rpm was allways OK.

No CEL light.

Conclusions.
- Bad fan clutch
- Bad lambda

Suspections about cabin/dash temp gauge. In this -91 Vitara for Swedish market with G16A engine the gauge seems to work logically compared to engine load. Thus I suspect it does actually measure temperature from somewhere else than stat housing. And most probably ECU reads the stat housing as I had always good idle around 800 RPM even tho the dash gauge was going anywhere between nearly cold and 1/2 of the scale.

Suggestions: If you live in country with winter temps (temp goes 5-30 below freezing), 80C ( 167F ) STAT is b$. I am going to the 88/90 (190/194F) STAT when I can find it somewhere.

Thank you fixkick for your info and help.

91vitara, not in USA, but  Swedish market coded in fire wall VIN tag. code E17 = Sweden and only parts for E17 should be used on this car,  not other markets, oK
the code 24 seen here is CODe market E24  see how I have you tag marked,? 

The G16A is 8valve engine with 8valve, intake MAnifold and all sold that year have 3 heat sensors .
2 are on the thermostat well.  and 1 far far rear for AC engine overheat that shuts AC down 100% if the engine overheats, the FSM covers this, buy FSM? used?

the dash gauge water temp has the 1 wire sensor on the thermostat well,  if you pull the wire key on warm engine, the gauge goes dead.  proof for sure that I told you as fact.

rule #2, is when the engine warms up 100% ';and hits 180F (stat markings dictates)  the gauge must not go up or down , while driving ever. (steady is NORM)
if it goes up that means thermostat is bad (stuck) or you have cooling tubes in the RAD clogged, or other reasons, even water pump impellers missing happens.
Any time the thermostat loses control , the cooling systems bad. no ifs, ands or buts.

That includes 10 milliion bugs in the RAD front. or AC condenser front, which ever is most front, now
(said all that for other readers).


in your  case the fan was dead.  simple and cave man easy cure, replace it or upgrade it or whatever,. works or works better.



all that is normal.. you report NOW,  but for a fact some folks in Siberia, run  pull up window shades in front of the RAD, as temps go to -50c the even have to pull the shade mostly up.

My buddy in Alaska , a full, ASE, and pilot (he flies to work in tiny Cessna) they  dont turn off the engine at all in dead winter,  or they will never start up,. for sure diesels.
even with 2 doubled up huge batteries,. yah.
On one back-hoe , they sprayed the engine with expanding foam . just to get the thermostats to work.  or it ran frigid full time. and nasty burn of fuel.
He works  for the state, and does all heavy machinery there.
Including RAD blocks with card board or better.
I love Listening to him on topic of ENGINES AND -50C (-70c is record there)

Id play more with cardboard, I would.   looks like you are on a ROLL!

Yeah my plate info was in the first post (really old):

"
 - Plate in engine compartment.
  - TYPE: ETA01V
  - LAK625K17 (SWE, car has actually been sold in neighbor country FIN)
"

I have ordered FSM 2 months ago.. for number of excuses I still dont have it (annoying dealer.. sigh they already lost one copy).  So I downloaded "Haynes 1986-2001 Samurai Sidekick X-90 Vitara Tracker Complete.pdf"

Luckily I live in south Finland.. for us the worst at winter is usually -25C - -30C and only for a week or two. In Lapland (North Finland) there has been a record of -51,5C, but usual winter goes only to -32C - - 35C (problematic enough for diesels). Which is why its very hard to find a used car there without electric engine block heater or webasto type diesel heater so that you can pre heat engine before startup. (Also its common here work generators/aggregates to have a heater block where you blow with natural gas torch for 15-30 minutes before startup. Dont need to keep starting so long and can manage with less batteries).

I have to debug the temperature gauge variations more later on. Now the car heads to a welder to get a few rust spots fixed (tomorrow). I have access to place where I can weld only at summer for now. So had to buy the work.

Anyhow at least it does not throw up error codes anymore so there is hope to pass yearly vehicle inspection so that the car is allowed for public roads. Also I intend to replace higher temperature stat there just in the hope to get more heat into the cabin. 

Nice to hear about those window shades. We were already thinking about those with my GF, now that someone else also uses those. I will definitely go to find some used shades and tinker them in front of the RAD. Lasts longer than cardboard and can be adjusted. Anyhow if I go off-road in the summer the RAD probably needs to be fully clear or its going to overheat.

Thanks again for the extra info. Hope this thread helps someone else at some point.\\

good news, thanks,  yes the pump heaters are cute.
was tad below -5C here  last night and we  were, in shock.... old candy bottoms here. , we should have moved to the Florida keys. (end)
remove the battery negative lug before welding so the ECU is not blown  up. the grounds in suzuki are a horror.

sounds good all that, good luck,  and keep the socks dry....