04-25-2017, 10:11 PM
lots of progress ! and the double failed, distributor, wow. great work there.
THe ect read live 0.65vdc hot 180f engine (across its pins ,running, black probed) or
stall engine, key on , pull ECT plug, measure ECT pins, 300 ohms (or on LCD meters .3K means same thing)
OK YOU GET A BETTER STATIC TIMING BUY CRANKING WITH FUEL PUMP RELAY PULLED. (KILL FUEL)
THIS PREVENTS IT FROM STARTING AND YOU CAN BALL PARK THE DISTRIBUTOR NEAR SAY 10DEG BEFORE TDC. (what ever spec is)
And you are correct getting timing exact (spark) takes a hot engine and 800 rpm, regulated.
what is next well the idle switch, on this car its a horror to set,
on this year the crazy TBI is devoid of the AIR bleed screw.
so one must do 2 things at once, not easy.
the one fiddles the idle stop for 800 rpm, and then adjust the TPS for[b] 50 to 300 ohms[/b]. on the idle switch pins, (its a carbon switch thus the odd readings) 50 to 300 is the sweet spot (my data)
the details are here. the goal is to get 0v on the idle switch at HOT idle, this is first or there will be no idle regulation;
link : (my page just for this 89/90 TBI engine) has factory data there too.
http://www.fixkick.com/All-Pdfs/M89/TPS/...ation.html
2000 RPM hot, (and that hellatious. suzuki illegal hunting,)
here is what id do if saw that. (first make sure idle switch reads ,0.0vdc, at hot idle, it must, if not fix that now, TPS cal)
1: is the DP retraced, I look next at end of DP shaft there must be and air gap at the end of the dash pot shaft, (PD end to bell crank stop) 1
OK DP is working , retracted 100% and passes vacuum leak down tests. as does distrib now.
2: I'd grab the throttle bell crank in the end of the TBI shift (cable bell crank) (if it moves there is something blocking it)
I now force the throttle by hand at the TB shaft and force it closed hard, man handle it. idle ok now? NO.
3: I then turn the idle stop CCW (counter clock wise) out, and see RPM drop, oops, it does, and magically when i get ear 900? the ECU takes over
and with ISC drops idle to 800 and it now regulates.at 800 now.
4: Ok its till screams. RPM. so i pinch all hoses, to finder the leaker,
one trick is unplug ISC, wires, (difficult) rpm must drop to 400 or even stall , if not there is a huge leak of air.
AKA: vacuum leaks, MOST vacuum leaks do 4 things, HIGH RPM, and surging and no 800 regulation
The iSc can in fact hide small leaks, but if excessive , it goes out of control as yours does
and all old suzuki hunt idle, (illegal today) it trying to find 800 and can't, it closes the ISC and 800 can not be reached so the silly thing hunts.
on newer cars, its shuts the ISC fully , no hunts allowed, and then sets DTC errors. for idle out of control but not back in 1989 to 1999
my answers wildl drift off to other vectors, as , for other causes depending on what you find above.
for example all small vacuum hoses do not leak
we check brake booster for leaks.
or check TBI base gaskets for leaks. (it has water path too)
I can be as simple as previous owner played with the stop screws. (there are 3) TB stop screw, DP stop screw, TPS calibration screws)
the 4th is ISC screws are hidden, and is new.
one trick on 80/90 is to add a switch on the ISC wire.
open switch, see 400 rpm, if not huge leaks, (400 is not a spec, its ball park , one way to say this , is idle 800 drop about 1/2)
this trick kills the ISC dead, (hARMLESSLY)
LINKS
tps cal 89.
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/TPS...only-calib.
spark timing 89 with factory pages,.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html
(04-25-2017, 12:37 PM)Banned Wrote: Thanks so much Fixkick for a very detailed answer and very much appreciate what you do for us,LIVE TESTS:
this is what I've done since:
Replaced distributor w/re-manufactured, for kicks applied vacuum 400mm and held.
Not able to do timing since idle's all over the place. The dizzy I replaced also had something loose inside, one of the
weights (springs) seemed to be loose, broken. Also the rotor spring back did not go back smoothly as does the new one.
After a few test drives the surge seems to be faster than before and after car warms up.
I SUSPECT YOU HAVE THE DECIMIAL POINT WRONG IN EACH OF THE BELOW.
THE METER I GUESS, IS AN AUTORANGER AND WITH LCD DISPLAY AND ON OHMS THERE IS "K" SYMBOL YOU MISSED SEEING? JUST LIKE CARS TACHOMETER.
Yes the MAT (not IAT) was bad, had a big crack just like in the pictures you have on your site, vacuum is a pretty and mighty powerful force, no? and these are the characteristics I recorded. ,,MAT IS OLD NAME AND IS OK TO USE.
(DECIMAL POINTS WRONG) BUT I CORRECTED 176 FOR YOUR, THIS IS IAT, INTAKE AIR TEMP IN PAN OF HOT WATER IT'S WINNER.
in PAN OF hot water:F 70° = 2.34 Ω
104° = 1.63 Ω
140° = .77 Ω
176° = .38 Ω (380 OHMS IS CORRECT NEVER, .38) (LCD SHOWS .38k = 380 OHMS)
212° = .21 Ω
ohms spiked severely at least once as water temperature rose between 140 and 176
MAT was replaced, also seemed to not have been tightened by previous bad guy and had a steel corroded washer that did not fit very well on center.
BOTH SENSORS NORMALLY READ THE SAME, THE IAT (MAT OLD NAME) READS SAME AS ECT. ONLY THE AIR SENSOR , IAT IS FASTER, (LESS MASS)
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/ECT/my-plot-ect.JPG
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/temp-sensors.html
Today I was in hot water PAN again as I've had suspicion of the ECT sensor or possibly the bad guy that installed the thermostat did not do it right:
ECT sensor test
Key on/motor off
Result: Voltage 4.71v Visually: ok
Characteristics:
Laser digital Thermometer
32° = 5.89 Ω 589 OHMS IS CORRECT NUMBER, DECIMAL POINT IS WRONG . mine reads exactly same
68° = 2.05 Ω
70° = 1.95 Ω
104° = 1.00 Ω
140° = .46 Ω
176° = .27 Ω VERY NORMAL 270 OHMS, 300 IS PAR.
THE DATA SHEETS ARE HERE FROM SUZUKI AND GEO.
AND MINE.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/temp-sensors.html
KEEP IN MIND THE SENSORS ARE NOT PRECISION, AT ALL, -+10 or +-20% accuracy, says suzuki or GM depends on year what they said.
Analog Thermometer
32° = 5.88 Ω
65° = 2.66 Ω
104° = 1.36 Ω
140° = .59 Ω
176° = .35 Ω 350ohms , the DP is wrong, sorry.
Also today: Checked thermostat for proper installation, position and visual inspection.
Result: hot water test begins to open at 178°, full open at 180° degrees, weep hole to front and visually looks like a new part.
Also replaced wires with Bosch, nice fitting, the previous had corrosion even though they were replaced a few years ago, yeah some off brand junk, dizzy cap and rotor also new with good quality type.
CEL never goes on except when ignition on/motor off.
CODES: 12, 12, 12... all day and all night long for the last 5 years I've owned it. Never throws anything else even though it idles like a mongrel from hell.
CODE 12 ONLY ,MEANS (SENSORS DIDNT FALL OFF, OR SHORT OR OPEN) CODE 12, IS GOOD, BUT TELLS LITTLE. BUT GOOD TO KNOW.
ISC at 6.6 ohms and sealed nicely. ISC is only a few years old. (GOOD , I DIDNT KNOW THAT, GOOD )
PCV test. at idle, placing finger over nipple, ticks and sucks replaced a few years ago..
Cleaned vacuum nipple at manifold for dashpot vsv vacuum supply and replaced vacuum hose
(nipple to vsv)
Re-grounded fuel pump ground at L tail lamp. Oiled fuel pump terminals at rear lamp housing and ground.
Checked engine grounds and ECM ground for positive contact.
Will test for fuel pressure and injector drip next after I reinstall the coolant thermostat and ECT sensor.
I tried the timing light on the injector with motor idling but could not see any fuel spray pattern...
also will try timing the darn thing if I can get it to idle at 800 for a few seconds which it does after warming car up and turning it off for about 10 minutes, it idles nicely but then it starts gaining speed until it reaches 2000 and then it starts its surging.
THe ect read live 0.65vdc hot 180f engine (across its pins ,running, black probed) or
stall engine, key on , pull ECT plug, measure ECT pins, 300 ohms (or on LCD meters .3K means same thing)
OK YOU GET A BETTER STATIC TIMING BUY CRANKING WITH FUEL PUMP RELAY PULLED. (KILL FUEL)
THIS PREVENTS IT FROM STARTING AND YOU CAN BALL PARK THE DISTRIBUTOR NEAR SAY 10DEG BEFORE TDC. (what ever spec is)
And you are correct getting timing exact (spark) takes a hot engine and 800 rpm, regulated.
what is next well the idle switch, on this car its a horror to set,
on this year the crazy TBI is devoid of the AIR bleed screw.
so one must do 2 things at once, not easy.
the one fiddles the idle stop for 800 rpm, and then adjust the TPS for[b] 50 to 300 ohms[/b]. on the idle switch pins, (its a carbon switch thus the odd readings) 50 to 300 is the sweet spot (my data)
the details are here. the goal is to get 0v on the idle switch at HOT idle, this is first or there will be no idle regulation;
link : (my page just for this 89/90 TBI engine) has factory data there too.
http://www.fixkick.com/All-Pdfs/M89/TPS/...ation.html
2000 RPM hot, (and that hellatious. suzuki illegal hunting,)
here is what id do if saw that. (first make sure idle switch reads ,0.0vdc, at hot idle, it must, if not fix that now, TPS cal)
1: is the DP retraced, I look next at end of DP shaft there must be and air gap at the end of the dash pot shaft, (PD end to bell crank stop) 1
OK DP is working , retracted 100% and passes vacuum leak down tests. as does distrib now.
2: I'd grab the throttle bell crank in the end of the TBI shift (cable bell crank) (if it moves there is something blocking it)
I now force the throttle by hand at the TB shaft and force it closed hard, man handle it. idle ok now? NO.
3: I then turn the idle stop CCW (counter clock wise) out, and see RPM drop, oops, it does, and magically when i get ear 900? the ECU takes over
and with ISC drops idle to 800 and it now regulates.at 800 now.
4: Ok its till screams. RPM. so i pinch all hoses, to finder the leaker,
one trick is unplug ISC, wires, (difficult) rpm must drop to 400 or even stall , if not there is a huge leak of air.
AKA: vacuum leaks, MOST vacuum leaks do 4 things, HIGH RPM, and surging and no 800 regulation
The iSc can in fact hide small leaks, but if excessive , it goes out of control as yours does
and all old suzuki hunt idle, (illegal today) it trying to find 800 and can't, it closes the ISC and 800 can not be reached so the silly thing hunts.
on newer cars, its shuts the ISC fully , no hunts allowed, and then sets DTC errors. for idle out of control but not back in 1989 to 1999
my answers wildl drift off to other vectors, as , for other causes depending on what you find above.
for example all small vacuum hoses do not leak
we check brake booster for leaks.
or check TBI base gaskets for leaks. (it has water path too)
I can be as simple as previous owner played with the stop screws. (there are 3) TB stop screw, DP stop screw, TPS calibration screws)
the 4th is ISC screws are hidden, and is new.
one trick on 80/90 is to add a switch on the ISC wire.
open switch, see 400 rpm, if not huge leaks, (400 is not a spec, its ball park , one way to say this , is idle 800 drop about 1/2)
this trick kills the ISC dead, (hARMLESSLY)
LINKS
tps cal 89.
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/TPS...only-calib.
spark timing 89 with factory pages,.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html
http://www.fixkick.com