11-08-2015, 09:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015, 10:02 AM by LuisCarlos.)
[quote='fixkick' pid='4792' dateline='1446757119']
"the bleed screw (air) is on the top front of the TB, upper half, air horn.
it is just a cone valve. screws, that lets in air, this screw, adjusts duty cycle."
-Yes, it's that I mean..
"that videos , the audio sounds like engine is misfiring badly..... why? or is this just poor audio, (could be)"
- I think are the engine vibration the camera is on the dashboard.. But in the next videos you can hear them much better..
-I made two video more, in cold and in hot, and some comments about when cranking in hot. There are other man looking it also, he'e name is Pancho I saiy him good morning in Spanish, I say you that to not confuse about languages.. You don't need say nothing in that videos as an answer, how you prefer..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4u_cUE408
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0upbhK9lA
-Today, I replaced the new thermostat, you can see photo in gallery later, and I replaced a new air hose in ISC valve, so the vitara working better, the engine sound better and reprise is better too, but the problem continue the same, as you can see in the video when the engine in hot..
"this comment i can not understand below.
'But If I pinch the air hose as you can see also in the photo gallery and when I start the engine in HOT and the idle is about 1000 r.p.m, the idle come down to 800 r.p.m, and if I stop pinching, it return again to 1000 '"
-Did you see that photo in gallery when I'm pinching the ISC air hose ? Well, when I start the engine in hot and the idle is close to 1000 r.p.m, then, I pinch ISC air hose with my finger, and the idle come down to 800 r.p.m as normal OK, But after two second or three pinching, I release that air hose by removing my fingers and the idle come again to 1000 rpm..
But when the idle is normalized i.e 800 r.pm, if I pinch that ISC air hose again nothing anormal happen the idle continue to 800 r.p.m..
"ok, you start the hot engine. and it might stick at 1000 , but for how long, seconds? 1 min?"
-All the time, the neddle is held in that position, never ccome down from that position, only if you give a little bit to the foot pedal it come down to 800 r.p.m, you can see very well in the second video. Althouh since I removed and replaced again the old thermostat waiting to the new one, the idle become 900 r.p.m now..
"but when did pinch it."
- When the engine in hot and idle is close to 1000 r.p.m. then it come down to 800 r.p.m but when I release my fingers from that air hose the idle rises to 1000 r.p.m agian, this is the same answer I told you above, but just in case, not problem to repeat it again..
"wait until its 800 rpm hot, then pinch it, if the RPM does not drop to like 400 and stall you have a huge air leak.
understand there is no air flowing during that pinch except the bleed, "
- I understand, what do you want to mean, so if I pinch when the engine is hot and idle is 800 r.p.m it have to drop to 400 r.p.m more or less ?
-Incredible!! Because I think as I told yoy above when I pinch it nothing happen about, and the idle continue in 800 rp.m, that is very interesting too..
-Tomorrow morning I'm going to test that agian, of course.. Its half past nine p.m now..
1: ISC is now pinched off, a the air tube (not water)
2: the IAC is closed, 100% if water temp is 3180F, (i use pyro guns to see truth)
3; TV is 99.9% closes, it flows zero air. now.
-Yes, as it should be, of course.. I'm understood that very well..
"you have a massive air leak.
not sure where.
but do."
-Yes, probably like a tunnel, rather a huge tunnel.. Yesterday, I check all hoses, and I couldn't find any leaks, only the ISC air hose that we are speaking about pinch, but it's replaced today and the problem in hot continue being the same.. I have also new vacuum hoses to replace all of them
"if the mech did his job, read the FSM , he would have seen the duty check and found duty cycle way off , closing the bleed."
-That bleed idle screw is open about three turns before reaching the end, I saw that cone in the old TBI..
"again he bleed is here.
this hole has a black rubber plug, remove it. behold the bleed (duty cycle adjuster)"
-Yes, it's the same what I say with the rubber plug..
"elaborate that pinch test again. please.
start at
HOT.
and 800RPM HOT
then pinch the ISC air hose, what is RPM?"
now set bleed closed 100% gently, (turn screw as you pinch it, what is RPM now (stalled is correct answer)) (its not a FACTORY SCREW at all its a standard service point)"
--I'll do it tomorrow and I'll tell you what happened exactly. The ISC air hose is new I replaced it this afternoon.. So, when that hose is pinch I set the bleed screw 100 % closed gently, then I'll see what is the r.p.m. or what happen then, but I think that if ISC air hose is pinched and bleed idle screw is closed, so the engine switched off, or not ?
-Yes, I know this screw has not problem to regulate idle, today, I turn a bit it because after I replaced the new thermostat 88º C, the idle rises to 850 r.p.m so I set again to 800 r.p.m.. By the way, the old thermostat was to work to 82º C
-You can see photos in the gallery of them and some details..
law of the west. engine can not run with zero air supply, if it does?, BINGO>.
-Yes, as every living thing, of course..
"this is a very common failure. on all engines. old."
-I see..
"duty signals. (air leaks look like wave top 1 of 3)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ISC/pwm2.jpg"
-High and low idle, I see too..
"if say the engine runs with ISC air line pinched, (i use a C clamp)
then i then start pinching hoses every where!, to see if one is leaking air . do not skip possible lines that can leak,.... due care looking.
-I'll do too.. But ISC air hose is new and of good quality, I'll do also pinch test with it using a clamp because is more hard than the old one..
"on this 8v engine, all points to the plenum that can leak air are suspect. (aka vacuum leaks"
-I don't understand the word "plenum" but I think it's about hose and pipe system or there are something else more as gasket and like that ?..
"one guy here, had and EGR that was cracked in half, sucking air. he sent a photo of that, and we said , gee you didnt see that huge crack on the side,? LOL
the EGR can be blocked with a solid gasket at its base. (made by hand or even a Cereal box paper for testing."
--I was thinking to ask you about EGR system, but you did it before than me, Then, would be the EGR system involved in air leaks because exahust extra in the engine ? I opened it a years ago to clean the soot, but there was not any part blocked, I put a new gasket where the EGR joins to TBI with the two screws..
-I'm going to open it again to sse and to clean it if necessary
"ok seen this little horror too.
the mech fails to buy real gaskets on the TB. so fails to block those hole seen here."
-The gasket base of my old TBI was made by hand, the mechanic showed me it. That could be when I took the vitara to other workshop about ten years ago, and they put the first TBI from the scrap with TBI screws sealed in yellow color, I have remembered after, maybe they replaced the old thermostat made in Spain too, but the vitara passed the Technical Inspection always until the last years..
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...view1W.jpg
"see those 5 small holes, they must never be unblocked, on a running car."
-When the TBI new came fron Santana it was complete but without the gasket bottom so we had to wait almost a week more to bring that gasket from Santana to set the TBI on the engine.. For that I think that gasket is blocked thouse holes.. I hope so..
"if only i could watch you do the pinch test. im sure your doing it right.
but????
what is rpm after the pinch. ?"
-800 r.p.m when the idle is normalized, anyway, I'm going to test it tomorrow..
-Last time when start the engine in hot and the idle was closed to 1000r.p.m as you can see in the second video, and I pinched that air hose idle come drop to 800 r.p., but when I release my fingers idle rises again to 1000 r.p.m, but I'm going to test it agian very attentive..
"the 800 and 1000 rpm , forget this, its just the ECU cant control ISC, as is all so common with air leaks. forget it."
-I'll do it..
concentrate on the ISC pinch, do it step by stem and report RPMs...
-I'll do it too..
"in your mind, imagine all air supplies end, and imagine it stalling... or almost stalls..."
-I hope that event..
"ive never done a ISC pinch with the bleed backed off 100%. so it might run at 400 rpm and shake hard the engine."
-And is possible the engine turn off ? Without any air supplies the engine can't breathe..
did the mech use the right base gaskets? or just used RTV?
-We were waiting a week to bring a new TBI gasket bottom from Santana to finish the work..
-Did you see in the gallery the spark plug ? You can sse thermostat and about oxygen sensor in the gallery..
"the devil really is in the details."
-He uses a microscope to make his job very well and in detail..
"the bleed screw (air) is on the top front of the TB, upper half, air horn.
it is just a cone valve. screws, that lets in air, this screw, adjusts duty cycle."
-Yes, it's that I mean..
"that videos , the audio sounds like engine is misfiring badly..... why? or is this just poor audio, (could be)"
- I think are the engine vibration the camera is on the dashboard.. But in the next videos you can hear them much better..
-I made two video more, in cold and in hot, and some comments about when cranking in hot. There are other man looking it also, he'e name is Pancho I saiy him good morning in Spanish, I say you that to not confuse about languages.. You don't need say nothing in that videos as an answer, how you prefer..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4u_cUE408
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0upbhK9lA
-Today, I replaced the new thermostat, you can see photo in gallery later, and I replaced a new air hose in ISC valve, so the vitara working better, the engine sound better and reprise is better too, but the problem continue the same, as you can see in the video when the engine in hot..
"this comment i can not understand below.
'But If I pinch the air hose as you can see also in the photo gallery and when I start the engine in HOT and the idle is about 1000 r.p.m, the idle come down to 800 r.p.m, and if I stop pinching, it return again to 1000 '"
-Did you see that photo in gallery when I'm pinching the ISC air hose ? Well, when I start the engine in hot and the idle is close to 1000 r.p.m, then, I pinch ISC air hose with my finger, and the idle come down to 800 r.p.m as normal OK, But after two second or three pinching, I release that air hose by removing my fingers and the idle come again to 1000 rpm..
But when the idle is normalized i.e 800 r.pm, if I pinch that ISC air hose again nothing anormal happen the idle continue to 800 r.p.m..
"ok, you start the hot engine. and it might stick at 1000 , but for how long, seconds? 1 min?"
-All the time, the neddle is held in that position, never ccome down from that position, only if you give a little bit to the foot pedal it come down to 800 r.p.m, you can see very well in the second video. Althouh since I removed and replaced again the old thermostat waiting to the new one, the idle become 900 r.p.m now..
"but when did pinch it."
- When the engine in hot and idle is close to 1000 r.p.m. then it come down to 800 r.p.m but when I release my fingers from that air hose the idle rises to 1000 r.p.m agian, this is the same answer I told you above, but just in case, not problem to repeat it again..
"wait until its 800 rpm hot, then pinch it, if the RPM does not drop to like 400 and stall you have a huge air leak.
understand there is no air flowing during that pinch except the bleed, "
- I understand, what do you want to mean, so if I pinch when the engine is hot and idle is 800 r.p.m it have to drop to 400 r.p.m more or less ?
-Incredible!! Because I think as I told yoy above when I pinch it nothing happen about, and the idle continue in 800 rp.m, that is very interesting too..
-Tomorrow morning I'm going to test that agian, of course.. Its half past nine p.m now..
1: ISC is now pinched off, a the air tube (not water)
2: the IAC is closed, 100% if water temp is 3180F, (i use pyro guns to see truth)
3; TV is 99.9% closes, it flows zero air. now.
-Yes, as it should be, of course.. I'm understood that very well..
"you have a massive air leak.
not sure where.
but do."
-Yes, probably like a tunnel, rather a huge tunnel.. Yesterday, I check all hoses, and I couldn't find any leaks, only the ISC air hose that we are speaking about pinch, but it's replaced today and the problem in hot continue being the same.. I have also new vacuum hoses to replace all of them
"if the mech did his job, read the FSM , he would have seen the duty check and found duty cycle way off , closing the bleed."
-That bleed idle screw is open about three turns before reaching the end, I saw that cone in the old TBI..
"again he bleed is here.
this hole has a black rubber plug, remove it. behold the bleed (duty cycle adjuster)"
-Yes, it's the same what I say with the rubber plug..
"elaborate that pinch test again. please.
start at
HOT.
and 800RPM HOT
then pinch the ISC air hose, what is RPM?"
now set bleed closed 100% gently, (turn screw as you pinch it, what is RPM now (stalled is correct answer)) (its not a FACTORY SCREW at all its a standard service point)"
--I'll do it tomorrow and I'll tell you what happened exactly. The ISC air hose is new I replaced it this afternoon.. So, when that hose is pinch I set the bleed screw 100 % closed gently, then I'll see what is the r.p.m. or what happen then, but I think that if ISC air hose is pinched and bleed idle screw is closed, so the engine switched off, or not ?
-Yes, I know this screw has not problem to regulate idle, today, I turn a bit it because after I replaced the new thermostat 88º C, the idle rises to 850 r.p.m so I set again to 800 r.p.m.. By the way, the old thermostat was to work to 82º C
-You can see photos in the gallery of them and some details..
law of the west. engine can not run with zero air supply, if it does?, BINGO>.
-Yes, as every living thing, of course..
"this is a very common failure. on all engines. old."
-I see..
"duty signals. (air leaks look like wave top 1 of 3)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ISC/pwm2.jpg"
-High and low idle, I see too..
"if say the engine runs with ISC air line pinched, (i use a C clamp)
then i then start pinching hoses every where!, to see if one is leaking air . do not skip possible lines that can leak,.... due care looking.
-I'll do too.. But ISC air hose is new and of good quality, I'll do also pinch test with it using a clamp because is more hard than the old one..
"on this 8v engine, all points to the plenum that can leak air are suspect. (aka vacuum leaks"
-I don't understand the word "plenum" but I think it's about hose and pipe system or there are something else more as gasket and like that ?..
"one guy here, had and EGR that was cracked in half, sucking air. he sent a photo of that, and we said , gee you didnt see that huge crack on the side,? LOL
the EGR can be blocked with a solid gasket at its base. (made by hand or even a Cereal box paper for testing."
--I was thinking to ask you about EGR system, but you did it before than me, Then, would be the EGR system involved in air leaks because exahust extra in the engine ? I opened it a years ago to clean the soot, but there was not any part blocked, I put a new gasket where the EGR joins to TBI with the two screws..
-I'm going to open it again to sse and to clean it if necessary
"ok seen this little horror too.
the mech fails to buy real gaskets on the TB. so fails to block those hole seen here."
-The gasket base of my old TBI was made by hand, the mechanic showed me it. That could be when I took the vitara to other workshop about ten years ago, and they put the first TBI from the scrap with TBI screws sealed in yellow color, I have remembered after, maybe they replaced the old thermostat made in Spain too, but the vitara passed the Technical Inspection always until the last years..
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...view1W.jpg
"see those 5 small holes, they must never be unblocked, on a running car."
-When the TBI new came fron Santana it was complete but without the gasket bottom so we had to wait almost a week more to bring that gasket from Santana to set the TBI on the engine.. For that I think that gasket is blocked thouse holes.. I hope so..
"if only i could watch you do the pinch test. im sure your doing it right.
but????
what is rpm after the pinch. ?"
-800 r.p.m when the idle is normalized, anyway, I'm going to test it tomorrow..
-Last time when start the engine in hot and the idle was closed to 1000r.p.m as you can see in the second video, and I pinched that air hose idle come drop to 800 r.p., but when I release my fingers idle rises again to 1000 r.p.m, but I'm going to test it agian very attentive..
"the 800 and 1000 rpm , forget this, its just the ECU cant control ISC, as is all so common with air leaks. forget it."
-I'll do it..
concentrate on the ISC pinch, do it step by stem and report RPMs...
-I'll do it too..
"in your mind, imagine all air supplies end, and imagine it stalling... or almost stalls..."
-I hope that event..
"ive never done a ISC pinch with the bleed backed off 100%. so it might run at 400 rpm and shake hard the engine."
-And is possible the engine turn off ? Without any air supplies the engine can't breathe..
did the mech use the right base gaskets? or just used RTV?
-We were waiting a week to bring a new TBI gasket bottom from Santana to finish the work..
-Did you see in the gallery the spark plug ? You can sse thermostat and about oxygen sensor in the gallery..
"the devil really is in the details."
-He uses a microscope to make his job very well and in detail..