'98 16v timing problem

[Rangerscott]

I followed everything on this site and still can not get the disty to line up correctly after replacing the head gasket.

The crank key sloy is in perfect condition with new woodruff key. Nice tight fit and is pointing up. The cam sprocket is installed correctly with the inner "E" to the cam pin and outer "E" pointed up for TDC 4. Installed tye belt, rotated twice and checked alignment. Tightened slack pulley and tensioner bolt.

Install disty at either TDC 1 or 4 and I have to rotate tye disty max right for the rotor to align with the post. Yes I do have a good rotor and only installs on the wide side on the top of the disty. After getting tye engine hot and timing it, the mark on the pulley stays to the right of the timing marks on the timing cover. With and without the timing plug "jumped."


Now if I take the timing belt off and rotate tye cam pulley clockwise 1 tooth, then I can get tye rotor tip to align with the post and have it almost completely centered on the hold down bolt. The mark on the crank pulley will align with the "0" on the timing cover and I can properly set tye timing that way.


So what could he tye problem? Ive pulled out tye disty several times and simulated being a tooth off with it but its very noticeable when you're a tooth off with the disty.

Only thing I can think of is maybe tye disty gear on the cam shaft rotated. I know theyre pressed on but Ive seen pics of a guys that came off his camshaft.

[gorkyb]

Hi Rangerscott, see the picture below of my 96 Tracker 16v. This picture shows my distributor timed 5 degrees btdc at 800 rpm (idle) and warm engine. I timed it with the timing freeze jumper in place. I am not 100% what you mean by "to align with the post"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1y3_E1jKbo

When I took this picture, cylinder #1 is firing. This means that the crank pulley's notch is lining up with the 0 mark on the plastic timing belt cover and the camshaft pulley's outer "E" mark is pointing at 6:00 o'clock (not 12 o'clock)

I hope this helps at least to give you a reference point. I am assuming our engines are the same.

gorkyb

[Rangerscott]

I know where it needs to be. The problem is I cant get it there while having the disty halfway on the mounting bolt. It has to be towards the right all the way.

[fixkick]

hello scott and welcome!
yes the dizzy can bet timed 4 why and run perfect. but only the 1pm way is stock, and the book keeps saying look at rotor over and over all over the book, so if not at 1pm that lays in pitfalls later.
but the short answer, is easy, your aligned below. so
pull dizzy and replant it so the rotor is 1pm and the slot is near middle.
easy huh? clear and mud.....

the mud part is the gear on the dizzy end is spiral cut.so the rotor turns, as you drop it, so back out 13 times, and get it right. 13 teeth IIRC. 1/2 joking 13 times...
hehehehehehe

ps:
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-procedure.html


yes , gorkys, Cam cog E points down not up. E at 6pm is #1 firing, and rotor at 1PM. asssumes cam timed 100% prefect.
good luck to you.

[Rangerscott]

Ive pulled the dizsy out so many times, Ive taken tye o-ring off just so I can do it easier. I still cant get the dizzy slott in the middle. Spiral gears are frustrating. Guess I could take off the disty housing and hold the the two gears together to see exactly where the disty gear is touching tye cam gear.

Ive pulled the disty just enough for me to spin the rotor and feel tye teeth. Every time I move the rotor till Im able to drop in tye disty, its too much.


Just an fyi. Im mechanically inclined and I do all my work. Im just getting frustrated with this.

[fixkick]

i think that is 13 teeth, 360 div by 13 is 27.7deg (dizzy degrees) per tooth. are you sure the cam is E spoke at 6pm. use silicon grease on o-rings for more slippery fit.
seems you cam is WAY off. ! in fact your test proves it is.

the crank fires at 5 BTDC. that is , only 2.5degress on the cam. 1/2. so that wont buy much.
mine aligns just like this.
are you running a POS china rotor. the ones that can be inserted 3 ways. try bosch parts, they fit 1 way , only.
lets look at this more simply, forget the crank,
only the cam the gear on the rear is fused.
so the E Cog spoke is as 6pm , the cam gear has E marks and I marks, no I marks allowed ever. so that means
the cam cog key , must be in the E slot not the I slot, if in the I slot that is for 3 cylinder engine.
that gets us to the cam, its note broken in half
now we land on the rear cam gear its fused and will not come off, it all that is true. then the dizzy drops in. just like this.
mine lands here
dont panic, i promise we can get this. im 100% sure.

Ive pulled the dizsy out so many times, Ive taken tye o-ring off just so I can do it easier. I still cant get the dizzy slott in the middle. Spiral gears are frustrating. Guess I could take off the disty housing and hold the the two gears together to see exactly where the disty gear is touching tye cam gear.

Ive pulled the disty just enough for me to spin the rotor and feel tye teeth. Every time I move the rotor till Im able to drop in tye disty, its too much.


Just an fyi. Im mechanically inclined and I do all my work. Im just getting frustrated with this. (it can be a pain.)

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i have 1 question.
is your compression bad above spec, 170PSI, WOT, then you got , "I" marked. sorry if did
"

[Rangerscott]

I know not to pay attention to "I."

[fixkick]

NO "I" spoke marks, no "I" keys, good.
you said.?

rotor indexed. to big flat
cam E at 6pm ,
belt timed for #4 firing TDC cam cog 12pm)
an you said the cam belt likes 1 tooth off, that is a bad sign , as is the rotor deal. 2x bad signs.

Questions.
is this the original cam, one that you saw run good once? or one that came with a rebuilt head.?
If the cam gear rear was pressed off during a cam regrind, my be it could be on wrong, ive never had to have mine pressed off
my last reground cam at Delta was never touched, at the gear.
as you can see if the cam is at 6pm the gear must align, and most not be off 1 tooth or the dizzy will be hard to time and get the base slot to fit.
the base only has , a little adjustment. so that dictates what can and can not work. as does the rotor tip landing in the field of the rotor gap.


i do not know if that gear , , but i see photo proof of it being pressed on and 2 index marks (only a cam shop would changes this)


there is and acid test.!
1: take some paint or liquid paper(my fav) or chock.
and lay a straight edge(ruler across the front cam cog, marking the #1 TDC exactly 180 from the E mark at the outer rim.
2: the turn the cam so that the new mark aligns perfectly with the top cam back pan mark (#4 during belt install)
now the cam is at true #1 firing. (regardless of the crank.)
3: if you cant get the rotor to aligned at 5BTDC and the rotor is not very close to center on the cap tower pin, (a normal gap there)
then the cam is no good. (gear)

put said mark here, at 6pm'

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silly question. the cam cog above is not reversed is it?

I always do a compression test , the moment the head hits the block + lash +belt timing, this audit , lets me know i did it correct. (and that the cam guy did his job too.... hint hint)

way 2:
?

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The cam gear was timed, day 1, in the factory.
see gear? and index?

find this cam notch, then on the gear find a gear titty mark, im sure it has one. they must align perfectly.!
do this only , IF the rotor is way off, using the cam top cog wheel only checks for TRUE TDC zero (if fail then look here)
IF not fail, then the crank pulley outer mark is wrong.

[Rangerscott]

All original parts. They just polished the cam when I rebuilt it 4 years ago.

[fixkick]

great input, i just made changes to the gallery here. BBC codes added. (direct links to photos) here is the 1st.....
the rotor not aligning (how far off never stated)
then the gear is wrong. see that here, and make sure the index aligns with the gear. how knows what PO did, (never try to get in their heads.)
PO : ran with belt off 1 notch, ran with all timing off.? who knows , all I know is what is,,,, and yours is wrong.
if you can not hit 5degrees (left on scale) BTDC, , in the whole range of the dizzy base slot then the gear is wrong.
the other possible is the , the crank shaft pulley rubber guts has slipped. (seen too) fooling the mech that timing is off when in fact not.
the pulley is only used during ignition timing. so....
if found out that with the TDC finder tool.


at TDC #1 , how far is rotor off, when dizzy base slot set min an max?

ACID TEST on cam gear and dizzy rotor alignment is here.


see warning here.
the rubber bond can shear here.

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one easy way to rule out the pulley (crank) slip.
add the #1 firing paint to the top cam wheel. with paint. 180deg from E rim mark per above.
then

put the cam top cog wheel at this new mark, to the 12pm back pan mark 12pm. #1 firing.
now look at the crank pulley see the 0 , v notch mark it must be very near 0 ,if not the crank pulley is toast. (stripped)

way 2 is using a real TDC tool, (or a 14mm bolts stop device)
or a drinking straw down the spark hole and daftly check, TDC for highest point (not too accurate )

i dont know how far off the rotor is,,, but if the added marks on the cam cog shows
1: the rotor aligns,using added cam cog marks, then the cam is good. if not its wrong. ( this is really easy to do with cam covers off)
2: if you are using the crank pulley marks to drop the dizzy then all bets off. (FSM way) the pulley must not be sheared,

the FSM assumes 2 things.
1: the crank pulley did not shear. (they do)
2: the cam gear is indexed at rear of cam.

if either are wrong, its a shop stopper.
in the case of #1 , remark the pulley and pray, it dont slip more.
in the case of #2 , hopeless. (due to rotor misalignment)

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comment 2
on any motor, any with rubber guts , harmonic dampener, type Crank pulleys,

when i remove any of them in hand , I mark the inside TDC mark then, using a ruler is see of the outer rim mark is still at the correct location. I use a Tri-Square tool to do that.
it finds the center of the pulley so i can project out the TDC marks to the other rim , in about 1min flat.

but rotor misalignment (not looking at crank pulley) is a cam issue

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see the TDC marks added to the cam cog ,below.
here, i just added it to the gallery.
i can assure you, assumptions are the killer of all good mechanics. do not assume, measure, and discover the real truth,
and do not discount 2 wrongs, some times, make a right. correcting 1 wrong, uncovers the next.

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warning 2
some cogs are marked on both sides, suzuki , in that case uses 1 cog for 3 engines.
the I marks are for 3cyl.
but if you have a DOHC motor, they run the cogs above and then flip the cog 2 , front to back on the second cam.
if you see marks on both sides, watch out. not saying this one has that. just that this is very common in Suz world. (they cut a fat hog there)

is your I key mark on the left?
for sure ive never seen every permutation of every suzuki cog, but I do know to look real careful.

Conclusion.
Do the TDC #1 acid cam cog timing test, if that passes and rotor aligns, then all is ok, cam to dizzy
if the above is good
then the pulley mark is wrong. (never trust the mark) always validate it.

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they are original, there are darn few other parts , made that are not.
the only question is, not indexed right or the crank pulley slipped.

damage or PO errors.
the PO may have found this error and timing it some other way to make him happy.. like using non stock, belt timing...
the acid test on the cam, per above proves this.
if the acid test passes, the crank pulley is bad.

just one test. and bingo.