1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!"

[Michtrackerproject]

2 dr. -4wd ,, 1991 different truck then original post I gave up on the trans swap on 5spd manual truck.. bought 2 other trackers, one for parts was a 1995 so not a lot to use on the 91.. different motor, manual truck no use on the automatic truck,, in the end I will have one 5spd manual and the Now current wife project truck , automatic.. but still hunting the un-findable 3l30.. only have about 800 dollars into all 3 trucks right now so a 1000 to 2000 dollar trans is way out of my budget,.. current topic truck is the one with a bad trans , originally a auto truck,, from what i can tell.. possible its a swap conversion would explain the unhooked connections and the missing bell crank for the kick down I will have to get the vin checked for factory equipment..so long story short maybe original trans in 3spd auto that seems to be burnt toast,,..

[fixkick]

that's the deal on a/t
none last forever like a 30k lubed, 5speed box. you can keep them going for 500k easy, if you just change the GL4, on schedule,. and clutches at 250k,
but there are NO a/t boxes that last. all fail. and that is why when found they are long ago dead, or near dead. (buy the rebuild kit hold bag in hand, all that fails fast a ton of seals, clutch pack plates ,etc.)
there are no cheap rebuilds on any A/t. (due to)
the labor to rebuild the A/t is over 10+ hours. (me be like 20hr) for a seasoned pro 10, so that be like $500 just on labor.
the parts, a $200 kit.
i have the nice video link of a full A/T build, it runs for days...so it seems... after watching it , you will know how hard it is.... tedious
and the risk,
if i build an M/T box i know it will fly.
but not a n A/t there is always risk and on the 3 speed, 2 x the risk if the 4speed. due to the 3 speed does all shifting.(VB)
the tricks to rebuild it and lower risk are a trade secret, but is easy, ill tell you, they use air pressure to test all servos.
the use air to simulate hydra. pressure, and find things, stuck , or leaking,.

the m/T if the gears are good, it's $125 bearing kit and 2 hours work (bench time)
in the end, it's a matter of luck or labor.
I've watch friends (helped ) swap junk yard transmissions 3 times, before one worked right. (the 7 day warranty deal, so must take a vacation... to do that.)

the 3sp does not need a working (x)
x; kick down. if missing it still shifts but early, and passing many not down shift. but might if next part is hooked up.
x: the vacuum modulator, on hills, if this is missing (easy hook up, for sure) it will not up/down shift going up hills. if left unconnected the a/t thinks all driving is on hills (zero vacuum) so will shift late , up hills. and reverse going down at huge 26" HG vacuum
x: TCC lockup, missing, so gear 3.5 is missing lock up. no big deal if not driving fast on freeway, 3rd gear is ratio 1:1 but the TC slips a bit. like a 1968 opel...

its a 1991 car.
if this car is a Tracker the glove box, lid has this huge sticker, called GM RPO
and all options are there.
type RPO
in my web site search box and its there.

here it is , off the offical, gm micro fiche (films)
http://www.fixkick.com/specs/RPO/RPO.html

I inverted white on black to black on white, , cool no?
the M codes are transmissions.

---

it's a tracker project
are all cars that?
if all 3 are the glove box, is king
even tells you if car is fed./calif or for the canada buyer.

the 4speed can be shifted manually
but you get to skip 2nd gear. doing that (per fsm method)
but if you make your own shift'er (switch) you can in fact shift all gears, manually) 1,2,3,4,R, N and lock tcc, +p/n (a complex switch but is simple electrically)

---

old 3L30s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic_180
old and hard to find used, that work, super hard. (think old hard dried , cracked seals, and super worn out clutch plates and weak pumps or leaks to/from, it.)
3L30's ended a long long time ago, the USA mail carts (jeep funny cars) use it too. and are long gone now, or USPS killed them all , driving in 1st gear for ever.



then it (Aisin) migrated to (mutated) and now 4 speed but is longer case, so all prop shafts don't fit? but maybe the 4wd adapter plate fits?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_4L30-E_transmission
some Chevy Trackers used transmissions (1997-2004) all the ones ive seen are 03-72LE (A44de, actual with suz, tail)
GM 41 (4L30-E) (Electronically Controlled)

transmission swaps (a/t) are further complicated buy users needs and expectations.
(what can you do with out? TCC? lock up, Power/normal switch, actual auto shifting need that? (and the OD switch)
needs vary.
with 5sp, its just one thing, no extras, or magic.

id attempt to rebuild mine, my self if mine died. (just helped my ex boss do one, 14 nights, 2hrs each) no free lunch ever on a/t labor, ...
but then adds the specter of down time,.

transwaps are endless,

they are playing with 4speed, here, swapping.
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=68191.0

[fixkick]

here is a good primer video.
also there are good books to read, that show all steps, and the secret , tests, done during assembly. (validation steps to assure a box that runs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0c50zWWis

if you watch all videos, (free) you learn all that things that can go wrong (seems endless on any A/t?)


i have most the GM books.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/transmis...tid=258781

be ready to make your own tools. or adapters for you shop press.

the major sellers of kits also sell the CD for your exact box.
be wise to have that too.


note how the vid guy starts with clean case, and clean bench.
many videos, look like the guy wants dirt in the box.
rule 3? cover all parts with plastic tarp, at any stop point, even lunch so dirt from air (wind?) does not land on parts.

at the least the Videos, show that the man earns his 10 hours labor. and is highly skilled. (he will never need to find a job, they find him, in fact the path to his shop, never grows grass)

[Michtrackerproject]

great link on the, swapping.http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=68191.0 but still Greek to me,, if I cant see it ,, its like describing a cloud to the blind.... But if I am understanding I could run the 03-72LE but only shift manual, . fitment books list the motor trans combo working up till 94 ,, for older trackers, ,, some listing the 03-72LE .. but I have not seen any cross reference that explains how this works, unless early pre 95 used a different tcu.. .....its like geo made a different tracker at each build location and year,, its maddening.

[fixkick]

(swaps topic is endless. after all , there are no 2 swaps the same,,, endless and complex to the nth degree , )

what you don't have is a working autotrans, finding one, takes trying it and failing, (repeats) huge efforts there , possible, can be endless.....(used parts)
mixing car parts is Greek ! (lots of years, and options, built)

there is no more complex topic on cars at all. (cept maybe a turbo build and custom ECU tuning)
after all it's really Re-engineering you are doing, (first reverse engineering things, in many cases, and lacking the EPC , very hard)

the transmission have load ratings. and must match engine torque, and most shift right. (but you are using OEM original parts) so skip this.
if you have a bigger engine, the low torque rated 3L30 will not like that excess torque nor shift fright. (case in point, adding a torque'y diesel)
OEM swaps:
Ill attempt to document the parts differences. on 1 body and 1 engine. 2dr, 8v.
mounts, harnesses, TCM, side braces ,shift'ers , cables , consoles , and other parts, it's non trivial.

no, the 4speed can be installed 3 ways.
way 1, just bolt it in and run it way1.
if you do that it shifts 3 gears. of the 4 , skipping gear 2. (tcm is missing)
way 2: (tcm still missing)
if if you design a switch box like my test drawing shows. you can in fact shift all gears, manually , after all that is what the TCM does, remotely
this is for testing, to design a shifter , a lady can shift , takes skills. but this is how it shifts. 4 gears. a simple 2 pin binary pattern is used. 0v and 12v.
http://www.fixkick.com/tranny/TCM/test2.jpg

or
way3:
install all 4speed parts and it works like new. auto-shifting. with TCM.
i have no idea what your goals are, like new, or some hack method, (im for all 3 ways , if it moves this old, its a blessing , no?)
that is correct , my swap page warns you on the spline rules.


off my swap page, (splines)
"The transfer case changed in 96 with new out put spline changed. (and for sure prop shafts)
Input is the same. to XFR case. input spline count is 23 ,BTW.
All t-case (transfer case or xfr case) input splines from 89 to at least 98 are the same size and count.
T-case output shaft splines are the same from 89-95 (26 spline) and from 96 to at least 98 they are 16 spline.
The output shaft size is 30mm (1.81"). on all."

changes.
evolution.
the maker of this car does not make transmissions.
so they must use parts off the shelf.
the 3 transmissions are different lengths.
so there are many prop shaft made

The 3speed is GM trans made in France. (used on may cars)
the 4speed is from Aisin maker in Japan,. totally unlike the above, but both have a 4speed adaptor that fits the Aisin transfer case, as an option
to make them fit takes adaptors and new prop shafts (drive shafts)
and mounts.
and the 4speed is electric shifted, so no magic there, if car is 3speed, the new 4speed cant shift automatically. (no tcm, no harness there)

seems what you need is working a/t , that be step 1. finding one that works can shifts and not slip
then get the parts, needed to fit it right.
the EPC shows all parts, and all p./n and what matches.

all 3 tranny bolt and fit the engine, the bell housings, all 3 fit as does the clutch.
that means next the tranny mounts need to fit up.
there are 7 suzuki transmission mounts, for 2door/4door, 3 transmissions, and if 2wd or 4wd. and 8v and 16v engines
but if all 3 cars are 2door, and 4wd
the cross member (trans) is same , but in 1994 , has small change, and new bolts. and new rubber mount type, the mount changed in 1992/3
these parts do not change for trans type. (due to all fit the 4wd gear box same spot)
now props.


but if only 3/4speed swaps its the same, if same body, and engine
there are 3 generation of sidekick. in 10 year run , many federal laws dictate changes, and many other reasons.
89-91
92-95 ( some minor changes 92/93/94)
96-98 (vast federal rules, like OBD2, and crash laws, abs, air bags and more.

the 4 speed has side mounts not used on the 3speed
and last the prop shafts.

i made a pdf for you. C = 2 door (canvas top) V = van 4door (codes by suz)

here is my list 3 to 4 speed. or 5 to a/t
made from the EPC (electronic parts catalog data base)
the 4speed has special side mounts , no 3speed has it. 5sp side mounts useless
cables TV and shift different.
if 3sp to 4sp , you must plug up vacuum modulator line.,
console different. (shift) and Power/normal switch missing and 0D switch.
harnesses different, on all, and in dash for TCM hook up and cluster (od lamp etc) and under car. at trans,
a/t oil lines and a/t cooler will be missing on 5sp car. if m/t/? now need new radiator, or external cooler.
vents on trans. new.
PRNDL switch and harness are different. (left side of box)
tcm missing. 4sp only. (1997+ new PCM needed if 5sp to a/t swap.
prop shafts wrong, and if 96+ splines wrong rear.


below pdf is 92-95 props
in 96 all this changed, if you find 96+ parts, ask. for sure the rear prop yoke will not fit early transfer cases.
i am not covering 2wd here, nor 4 doors.

need adobe pdf reader, have that? if not, load it?
http://jeepdied.com/look/alien-stuff/props-92-95.pdf

i will add 96+_ props later
cheers !

---

the zuk swap link

as you my not know
some , dont want to run the Vitara, 03-72LE box
and then find some old Volvo A44 box (no DE on end) means not shifted by TCM.
so buy this box, and add the vitara 4wd adaptor to this box
it now shifts, TCM free.
see?
some folks find a non E box. (e= tcm shifted)

my tranny page shows this at the end
quoting my own page
Some guys , took out their A44DE and put in a real hyrdmatic trans from below and trashed the TCM. (minding tail shaft 4wd adaptor...)
DODGE D50 PICKUP 2 4L -- L4 -- 3 0L V6 1987-89 AW372 (A44D)
DODGE D50 PICKUP 3 0L V6 4X4 1987-89 KM148 (A44D)
DODGE RAIDER 1987-89 AW372 (A44D)
DODGE RAIDER PICKUP 2 4L L4 -- 3 0L V6 1987-89 AW372 (A44D)
DODGE RAIDER PICKUP 3 0L V6 4X4 1987-89 KM148 (A44D)
DODGE RAM 50 1987-89 KM148/A44D
GEO TRACKER 1 6L L4 1996-98 03-72LE (A44DE)
ISUZU AMIGO 2.6L L6 1992-95 03-72L (A44DL)
ISUZU IMPULSE 2.0L -- 2.3L L4 1988-89 03-72L (A44DL)
ISUZU IMPULSE 2.0L L4 W/TURBO 1986-87 03-72L (A44DL)
ISUZU PICK-UP 3.1L V6 1988-95 03-72L (A44DL)
MAZDA MIATA 1.8L L4 1998-99 A44DE
MITSUBISHI MONTERO 2.6L L4 -- 3.0L V6 (4X4) 1990-5/94 AW372L (A44DL)
MITSUBISHI MONTERO 2.6L L4 (4X4) 1987-89 KM148 (A44D)
MITSUBISHI PICKUP 2.6L L4 -- 3.0LV6 1987-89 AW375 (A44D)
MITSUBISHI PICKUP 2.6L L4 -- 3.0LV6 (4X4) 1987-89 KM148 (A44D)
MITSUBISHI VAN/WAGON 2.4L L4 1987-90 AW372L (A44DL)
SUZUKI SIDEKICK 4 DOOR 1.6L L4 1992-98 03-72LE (A44DE)
SUZUKI SIDEKICK 4 DOOR SPORT 1.8L L4 1996-98 03-72LE (A44DE)
SUZUKI X90 1.6L L4 1995-98 03-72LE (A44DE)
TOYOTA 4 RUNNER 2.4L L4 1989-91 A44D
TOYOTA VAN 2.0L -- 2.2L L4 1984-86 A44DL
end.

you need to use the suzuki bell housing and suzuki 4wd extension adapter.
Volvo for use in the 960/S90 (no tcm years)
volvo calls it the aw72L (even more rare, in year 2016)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_t...sion#A44DL

finding any A44 box,used and good, is kinda hard.

[Michtrackerproject]

Ok so 03-72LE will work and shift without the brain? those I can find and I have passed up 3,, due to ecu tcu issues and compatibility, tcc lock is still the same plug is it not, so tcc will lock up from signal in existing harness of 90-92 trucks and should bolt in? and current care has auto ecu.. so I just need the tcm ? for the 03-72LE a44de? or is that part of the ecu in pre 96,>? and if I find a a44 non- E trans ill still need to run adapters ? for transfer case Bell housing Trans mounts unless its out of a tracker,>? example I find a 2wd Volvo .. with a44 box would the transfer case bolt up and bell housing and torque converter..so many questions.

I am Going after a 3l30 this week from junk yard new arrival at yard and truck looked to have been driven very recently,, maybe got stuck because the whole back end is torn off of it due to rusted frame,, so Maybe.. just maybe decent working trans that will work for now, so I can rebuild the other here's hoping. I would rather run a newer trans maybe a44 series or 700r4,. personally I could care less what I run but due to it not being a car I will drive every day and will be for my Woman, it needs to be simple,, stop and go.. and not take forever and a boat load of cash to get sorted,, she's waited 2 years already since we got the first tracker 5spd manual that I mistakenly thought I could convert easily.. silly me, nothing used is easily found and anything running is thousands of dollars to buy, thus the search ,,
Lastly I am very grateful for all the feed back/ info.

[fixkick]

the TCC lock on both A/T boxes, needs an ECU, marked (us-at, on its sticker , the mt ECU is marked US-MT)US = USA.
The TCC is controlled by the ECU on 3speed
the TCC on the pre 1997 cars is controlled by the TCM only
in 1997, the TCM was moved to the ECU and renamed PCM, now the PCM does both a/t boxes alone, no physical TCM box is present.l

or a manual switch (DIY) (TCC) in the cab can do the same thing, it's just a 12vdc solenoid, for TCC. (lock , unlock)
the 4speed when that connector pulled (4speed) shift solenoids (x2), you can shift 3 of the 4 gears.(unplugged, per FSM, stated test)
shift order (per fsm)
1,3,4 (skips2) this happens by virtue of the transmission shift valve inside the box (lever and cable to it) (it will never autoshift lacking the TCM,ever but you can buy a $500 programmable TCM and program it.)
With the cable unplugged,due to the now missing factory TCM


the TCM is complex ,see the schematic for it below, it runs the 2 (4speed logic) shift solenoids, and the TCM has many inputs. (all missing on 3speed and 5speed car !))
the volvo box (rare ) and others, (rare now due to age) are A40 boxes, 3 and 4 speed,
take off the bell and rear extension case and the suzuki transfire case adapter bolts on , (so they say, and is not simple project. most those posts are old, back when A40s were laying around doing nothing... )

the only kinda easy conversion is the TH180 (3L30 verson) the others are vastly more complex, if auto-shifting is desired.
The TH180 series have no TCM brain, its got a Hydraulic brain inside, so if TCC is not needed, it shifts all 3 gears, all by its self. (all the magic is inside the box)
finding good 20 year old a/t boxes is only a dream.. IMO

NO A/T is simple. 100s of parts inside , and have a low life span. (viewed in the 25 year, frame of thought)
the best way to get one, is buy a Sidekick/tracker, 89 -98 2door, with 3L30 , one that was wrecked or the engine blew up. (and cross fingers the 3speed was good)
Keep in mind many sidekicks are sitting in barns , long ago the $2500 to fix , A/T died. and was parked, ($1500 for rebuild and $1000 to put it in, )


the bad thing is the wrecking yards don't show, below , wreckers network link, is , 2door 4door or 3 or 4 speed, but usually in usa they match, 3 speed= 2 door.
http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

one way to find used parts , is to use craigs list, use "all of craigs" to search all USA listings. google the quoted text to left here.
or create a WTB (wanted to buy) on Craigs, wanted "Suzuki sidekick/tracker 3speed automatic transmission.": see what pops up.


the transmissions, with "E" on the end, do not autoshift , by them selves ,ever.... they can't, lacking the external brain and sensors to that brain.
they have a TCM (only) auto shifted, valve body. The valve body has no BRAINS of any kind.

the VB has 2 solenoids there, see them below, (sol3 is TCC)
This box needs a TCM to shift them. (unless you make a custom switch box to do that as I have done, but turns the DE box i not a manual box doing that. the drive throws a rotary switch)



here is the GEO tracker 1996, 4speed TCM wiring
as you can see it has lots of inputs.
note page 1.
note the serial line there. (ECU to TCM) a key feature. that.
the A/T ECU talks to the TCM to let it know engine loads.
they work as a team. (the FSM covers this in the preamble of the 4speed chapter)

http://www.fixkick.com/tranny/TCM/FSM-TCM-SCH.pdf

[Michtrackerproject]

ok let me try this .. the current truck has an automatic in it, . 3spd th180 that's junk,, will the ecu tcm run a 03-72LE / a44de or is it change harness and ecu tcm ..only solution,?. and as for craigs list I use it a lot,, and I had an wtb add up.. almost all of the replies have been the 03-72LE / a44de 4spd .. or the likes.

[fixkick]

yes, my ecu page, see the list of all ecu's shows that all things same, the 3sp and 4sp ECU are same
but i cant answer for the all things word.
look at this list please. (ECU's there are many)

2 links here, covering all USA an Canada, ECU ( and Puerto Rico)
all of them

see Real ECU here;

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU.html#EPC

lets pretend you want to swap a 95 and 95 ECU, from 3sp to 4sp (just ecu)
Note page does not mention 3sp and 4sp, that is because they are the same , with is not same
are the other criteria
engine type. 1 injector or 4
there are 8, 1995 ecu , in N.America, and way more world wide, (smog parts,4wd/doors/MT version, and Ecode markets)
you tell me the ecu you have now, p/n and can answer way better,
the ecu has a tag and an number .
looks like this.
http://www.fixkick.com/specs/Body-TAGS/h...ge_32.html




(harness question are even more complex. short answer all are different, by trans, body door count, engine, 2wd/4wd, lots and lots of harnesses.
ill later to day ,do a harnesses EPC look up.
this is the most hard question of all, (vast harness configurations exist)
but will try. 3sp and 4sp, swap. (not m/t as we already know its wont work at all)

---

try to understand the car comes in many forms, not just 3 or4 speeds
2door
4doors
8v
16v
2wd
4wd (and all permutations there of)
MT 5sp
AT 3sp
AT 4sp
all those. cars run different parts, and harnesses tops this list. (and matching ECU.)
mixing parts between them can be hard work.
lots of home work !
and smog rules. (smog parts change by country and state, EGR tops list and EVAP)
The ecu is also tuned for the weight of the car, (door count tell it that)

---

also expectations come in to play.?
1: passing a smog test>? on pre 1996 cars in usa is super difficult (low VW today) the pre 96 bet the rolling dyno sniff test here, IM240 tests.
2: just runs ok, dont care if CEL lamp warning glows all day. and code 51 DTC errors. all day.? (ecu might run funny like this in USA only)
3: might have flat spots in the throttle due to ECU mismatch or smog parts not right matching ECU and harness? (EGR tops this list)
4: car moves and shifts gears, 1,2,3, or even 4, (or ok to skip a gear?) (is home made manual shift'er ok? on 4sp,. hummmmmmmmm)
5: car moves shifts all gears automatically. but TCC don't work., (m/t to 3sp this is what you get)
6: some cars have ABS and 4wd and ABS WORK TOGETHER.
7: Some cars have RWAL (rear wheel antilock brakes) and works with ECU and and 4WD modes... (goes off line in 4wd it does) (danger if not)


exceptions, are never known unless stated.

---

in the usa, finding a 3sp is like this
find a 2door, most have a 3sp. if not m/t
the short car is lighter and runs the low torque rated 3sp.
2doors. most have it.
the 4dr have 4speed, here.
outside usa, lots of other mixes....

[fixkick]

EPC harness review. (seems just the trans harness 57 matters.) there are no pages , that shows, 3AT/4AT wiring differences.
all things equal (doorcount,2wd/4wd/AT/year/8v/16v)
the harness id's and factors below. (only usa, outside usa vast count)
I.D: , what..harness
1: main, there are 30 main harnesses, but AT3 and AT4 are same, all else same! (doors/engine/2wd/4wd/years/etc)
31: cluster IP, harness years/and doors. (x5)
35:floor, all same but door count.
39:rear lamp , just door count.
43- engine, year, doors , 8v and 16v , m/t and AT (means both)2wd/4wd there are 11 harnesses here.
45-INJectors, just 1 for 16v.
57-tranmission harness (9 total types) varies by door /at/mt/2wd/4wd. but all AT the same , all else the same. and one calif verion(?) wow.

there are other wiring assemblies (117 line items)
but above are key , to topic.

seem if car is same doors, 4wd , the AT trans harness for 3speed works for 4speed.
and same with ECU if all is same. but trans type.
This is because(my best guess) the AT- version ECU sends the same load data serial data to the TCM even if the TCM is missing.(on 3AT)
the data is just sent blindly, until later years. much later.
On newer cars if the ECU cant send commands to the TCM it sets up errors.
P1600 is one such error, 1996+ (and you fail smog tests ,just for that one code)
so the old ECU send data blindly, (a good thing in this case)

try to understand the 4sp has no 3AT vacuum modulator (vacuum is load on all 3speeds)
the 4speed uses load data from the ECU, and will never shift correctly lacking that serial load data from ECU to TCM.
what that means is up hills it may not down shift. see? it still auto-shifts , but cant do it correctly. lacking correct ECU.

how is that?