02-27-2016, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-21-2016, 10:12 AM by Michtrackerproject.)
ok first off Hello
my name is Mike and thank the makers that I found your forum,, I would never have had any idea of what car /truck ran the 3l30 /th180 if I had not stumbled on your post from a secondary link.
Second I am hoping that I can get some decent info on what options I have with my '91 8v tracker,, its currently a sad dusty 3year old project in my garage right now.
I am desperately trying to find a transmission option that will allow very little or no electrical configuring so far I have come up with 2 options a very old th180 "purely mechanical" or a newer version 3l30"" with the tcc hook up" . but I have no clue how a 3l30 would work out,, the donor could be from a 1996 which is locally available to me but that little blue tcc plug makes me cringe,,, being as I know fully well there is no connection for that in my 5spd harness so please if anyone has any ideas im open to suggestions and hopeing for the best.
Thank you all in advance and pardon my new thread if this have been covered.
(02-27-2016, 10:59 AM)Michtrackerproject Wrote: ok first off Hello
my name is Mike and thank the makers that I found your forum,, I would never have had any idea of what car /truck ran the 3l30 /th180 if I had not stumbled on your post from a secondary link.
Second I am hoping that I can get some decent info on what options I have with my '91 8v tracker,, its currently a sad dusty 3year old project in my garage right now.
nice project...
I am desperately trying to find a transmission option that will allow very little or no electrical configuring so far I have come up with 2 options a very old th180 "purely mechanical" or a newer version 3l30"" with the tcc hook up" .
the tcc only needs, the ecu that is tagged a/t . the 3L30 just has that one electric part. all else is 1972 ville.
the 5speed ECU has no TCC wires. only the A/t verson works, but only makes TCC work trans still will shift 3 gears. with m/t ECU.
and the ECU is here.
33920-56b40
yours is a B30 now, marked m/t the a/t is marked (b40) A/t
that is all there is to a/t 3sp
good luck and have a great project !!!
but I have no clue how a 3l30 would work out,, the donor could be from a 1996 which is locally available to me but that little blue tcc plug makes me cringe,,, being as I know fully well there is no connection for that in my 5spd harness so please if anyone has any ideas im open to suggestions and hopeing for the best.
Thank you all in advance and pardon my new thread if this have been covered.
02-29-2016, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 02-29-2016, 02:58 PM by Michtrackerproject.)
>> ok
well first thank you for the simplified links, but im no electrical expert,, me and automotive electronics have a long history of bad blood. SO are you saying ill still need to change the ecu and harness even if I use the 3spd 3l30,, with the tcc plug.? see attached pics for trans tag and plug. is it possible to go all the way back to a mechanical trans for this I have a source on a 1985 th180 which I believe should be fully mechanical..
02-29-2016, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-20-2016, 04:14 AM by fixkick.)
(02-29-2016, 02:52 PM)Michtrackerproject Wrote: >> ok
well first thank you for the simplified links, but im no electrical expert,, me and automotive electronics have a long history of bad blood.
your welcome.
SO are you saying ill still need to change the ecu and harness even if I use the 3spd 3l30,, with the tcc plug.? (your ECU has no TCC pins, zero) The MT ECU has no TCC controls no pins, for it nor wires in the harness. zero tcc parts on your car.
so to make the TCC work is just 1 wire and a switch, moving the TCC brain out of the ECU, to yours. you decided when to lockup.
see attached pics for trans tag and plug.
is it possible to go all the way back to a mechanical trans for this I have a source on a 1985 th180 which I believe should be fully mechanical..
the TCC can be , just not wired up and it stays, dead, and you get a 1972 3speed.
my guess is youre reading web pages on the 03-72LE 4 speed converting to the Volvo pure 4speed hydramatic.? from the LE means electronic shifted, the volvo has no LE tag mark.
Th180s, early.
Some very old 3speeds many had no lockup at all. no TCC locks.
its like the 4th gear. then 1,2,3, no slip.
you can wire up the tcc with a simple toggle switch on the dash called the highway switch. even with no relay. (or MPG switch)
recap
1: run no TCC (its a hyrda matic, shifts 1,2,3
2: wiring in new ECU (A/T B40 code) to TCC and relay per above drawing, and bam, it stock setup.
3: run a switch, human powered, lockup , on demand.
you will get 3 gears , regardless, of above but will lack in performance due to the below:
there is more the 3speed needs, it need 2 more inputs
the Vacuum modulator , vacuum line, super easy. no?
and
The TV cable , the throttle body has and extra bell crank TV lever and mount to make this fit up.
This the passing gear cable., lacking that, no passing. allowed, (LOL)
The vacuum mod, causes down shifts on hills (its load sensing)
ask questions, i will do my best to help.
the plug
all that is there, is in the photo. below
history, the early trans has 2 pins but the second is not wired. (its a testing pin only , that was added later)
diagram deleted, at fixkick.com type schematic in the search box.
the hack:
see pin 2,
connect a new wire from the Blk-white main power wire, above, to a toggle switch, then from the output of said switch to pin 2 on the TCC plug port. (a 4pin plug)
you flip the switch and 12vdc arrives on pin 2 and bam, she locks up.
as you can see the ECU has but one wire, and some brains to run it, correctly inside.
the shift table charts, are on my 3L30 page, shift points and TCC lock at all speeds and loads, out of the FSM book.
the is not an electronically shifted box, it's only the clutch lock, that is electric,
if driving in say town or off road its really not needed
and ive no idea how car is used . some guys here just use this car to pull stumps.... (only)
03-15-2016, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 03-15-2016, 02:51 PM by Michtrackerproject.)
Ok hello again
I gave up on the idea of a trans swap and found a whole new truck already factory AT.. ,, yay,,. Bad news is its had a engine transplant from a manual truck,, so no bell crank and lots of missing vacuum lines and wires.. this aside it cranks and tries to start ,,, until earlier today, while trouble shooting some of the issues the engine stopped cranking,, the electrical puked and the dash lights all went out and it would not crank again.
If I unhook the battery neg side and reconnected it ""seems"" to reset the issue but still no crank and when I try it seems to short as before and the dash light s and power go out.. hot battery and ":"good "" connections.. I am not sure if the issue is a starter short a relay short or a dead ecu..ecm.. so I now have the right truck "AT" and the right gear but more electrical issues,,
I do know at some point in the past +- 4 years it was a running driving truck,, and it did crank till this afternoon then I got what seems to be a dead short that's killing the entire electrical system...so I guess im wondering if anyone has seen this issue,, bad ground maybe... rust, water damage from being parked,, I know I had an old VW rabbit that had a bad fuse block ""rusted " that would short like this but I don't see any issues with the fuse block on this truck...so any ideas or should I just give up now.. trying to stay positive...and be energetic..
thanks again in advance
03-15-2016, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 03-15-2016, 11:54 PM by fixkick.)
(03-15-2016, 02:47 PM)Michtrackerproject Wrote: Ok hello again
I gave up on the idea of a trans swap and found a whole new truck already factory AT.. ,, yay,,.
Bad news is its had a engine transplant from a manual truck,, so no bell crank and lots of missing vacuum lines and wires..
this aside it cranks and tries to start ,,,
until earlier today, while trouble shooting some of the issues the engine stopped cranking,,
the electrical puked and the dash lights all went out and it would not crank again. 1st check for 12vdc at the right fender fuse box , all points. there.
all 4 battery lugs clean and tight not just 2 top ends
top starter bolt must have battery neg lug there, and thigh.t
If I unhook the battery neg side and reconnected it ""seems"" to reset the issue but still no crank and when I try it seems to short as before and the dash light s and power go out.. hot battery and ":"good "" connections..
I am not sure if the issue is a starter short a relay (no such thing) short or a dead ecu..ecm.. the ECU on this car does not crank the engine, only the starter, battery and the PRNDL , switch and key.
so I now have the right truck "AT" and the right gear but more electrical issues,, (all this is simple fails)
I do know at some point in the past +- 4 years it was a running driving truck,, and it did crank till this afternoon then I got what seems to be a dead short (its not a short) that's killing the entire electrical system...so I guess im wondering if anyone has seen this issue,, bad ground maybe... 1000 of cars every day fact , no cranks,,,AAA tow shop is busy.
do you have a $10 volt meter? from even walmart,
read my no crank page.?
wiggle the shifter cranking
crank in Neutral yet?>
smack side of starter gently.?
first it must crank, to start, (on manual trans, you can gravity start it and push start it ,but never on an a/t , you are a slave to the mighty start motor)
Events and checks:
head lights dim or dead?
see the schematic above.
lets fix them 1 at a time
head lights work? they must work even with your car keys in your pocket.
then key on,
all warning lamps glow, if the CEL lamp in cluster is dead, the ECU cant make spark , it lost all power.
if you get this far,, cranking might work.
no crank is next, if it fails to crank, the try NEUTRAL and not park (this uses fresh contacts in the PRNDL switch on side of tranny)
then key ON , and the whole dash lights up, this is self test mode on all cars made.
if this fails you lost power at the fender fuse box. Right top
and they do rust if you live in the salt belt, do you?
here is one. example.
if "test point A" goes dead, you loose head lamps too. and every thing... if head lamps fail fix that first. or dim,,,, its the most easy failure on car to diagnose.
use a voltmeter and make this super easy
battery at 12.6vdc rested. if not charge it. or replace it with one that is good or is fully charged.
then 12v on all points that fuse box, in 1996 there are 9fuses there, so gets worse later years, from salt exposure.
also the grounds can fail, or be fell off, or rusted, or burned up.
Ahh..
fender side fuse block,, didn't even think about that one,, But ,, weird issue is it was cranking over and firing fine,, engine started twice and then the electrical puked to what seems like a dead short then if I disconnect the terminal neg side the whole system resets till I try the key again then all power lost, no headlights no dash lights nothing I can see .. will test today for other states,, But .. there was a small whine and faint beep after power lost like Low voltage,, even with hot fully charged battery,,
So fuse block very possible,, and also grounds since someone else had been poking around the electrical.. Hate getting into a spaghetti dinner after the fact...thank you again,,
03-16-2016, 07:58 AM (This post was last modified: 03-20-2016, 04:17 AM by fixkick.)
shorts cause infininte current, so a fuse blows or you have fire lacking a fuse, the battery can even source 1000 amps, possible.
so its lots and lots of current there and why we have fuses on, cars, homes,plains and boats. all for that reason.
a rusty connection is on open circuit, and zero current flows, end of story.
for get the engine starting for now. that is more advanced fuctions, spark and fueling
do the head lights work always? this primitive system, and must work first.
see why?
this is not weird all old cars do this, all do,.. and from rust (all forms of corrosion, not just one)
why not use a voltmeter and go to the cause. fast.... that is why god made voltmeters, so humans can see electrons.
we cant , otherwise and is a safe simple instrument.
Even, Mr. Tesla had one. in 1901 , and he built the first A.C home power distribution systems. in USA.
he'd be hopeless with no meter. for sure/.
my example are not guesses.
you have bad main fuse fuse box, connnections, or bad grounds.
1 or the other. for sure.
with head lights dead.
the schematic is free. to see.
not sure now what car your fixing or what year.
but if no DLR, (canada daylight runnning light options)
here is how head lights work.
as you can see 2 fuse there need to blow to lose power to head lights, i bet they are ok
and you lost power to the mains.
this photo is on my power loss page. simple to fault, no more complex than a flashing (cept has fuses)
deleted spaghetti drawings
at fixkick dot com, type i search box , schematic.
but you found a bad ground.....
see DMM to 20vdc scale
set black test lead to minus battery lug. KEEP IT HERE! for ALL TESTS.
HL (head lights to on) (used as a natural load) key off. no need for a key with headlights, and makes testing 10x more easy, no?
connect red lead to battery + , 12.6vdc, less is discharged, or even a bad battery , (a very short lived product if ever the was one)
move red test lead to engine top metal (valve cover ,etc), 0v to 0.5v max. or grounds are bad. ( if this fails say so)
move red lead to body metal, scratch it clean to bare metal, same deal same cause if not 0v to 0.5v max. (same tell me)
no move red lead to battery mains box, on R. fender just in front of the battery ,just like you home these ARE MAINS.
see 12v there on every wire, if not,12vdc, the mains are blown (Fuse) or rusty just like my pages shows in graphic reality. are you in the SALT BELT? we are not and our cars run forever here, no rust. no rust related, electrics failing here. even on 1980s cars./
there are set of very simple tests... in a row.
takes all of 5min to do. with meter in hand.
for sure.
let me know what you see/.?
(03-16-2016, 04:11 AM)Michtrackerproject Wrote: Ahh..
fender side fuse block,, didn't even think about that one,, But ,, weird issue is it was cranking over and firing fine,, engine started twice and then the electrical puked to what seems like a dead short then if I disconnect the terminal neg side the whole system resets till I try the key again then all power lost, no headlights no dash lights nothing I can see .. will test today for other states,, But .. there was a small whine and faint beep after power lost like Low voltage,, even with hot fully charged battery,,
So fuse block very possible,, and also grounds since someone else had been poking around the electrical.. Hate getting into a spaghetti dinner after the fact...thank you again,,
deleted spaghetti drawings
at fixkick dot com, type i search box , schematic.
if all mains are 12v
and the head lamps are dead, (given fact that , most else is dead)
then G200 is bad.
this is a dash board, body ground there,
and if the other battery to body grounds fail, the G200 is totally useless.
my bad ground page lists all grounds that must be good to run engine.
all of them.
starter ground to battery Net lug, not lose on any end. or rusty.
engine to body grounds. at least 3.
body ground behind the battery must be good.
and last, G200 (under dash)
i dont assume, i let me meter tell me the truth
only truth is the path to why its failing.
but inspections can see this. just looking at them, omg, rust , omg its loose, omg it burned to a crisp.
for sure.
once gandering fails, out come the meter,
ok so found the issue bad ground at battery chassis / firewall connection ,, assuming since the motor is not original that this may be the ONLY solid ground at the moment,, new issue , have to wind the rpm up to about 2500 to get the truck to even start to roll ,, thinking bad torque converter but I see unhooked vacuum and electrical to trans.. so maybe other issue plus I believe I have a front bearing issue truck is very hard to roll maybe auto lock hub is in locked position.. not sure yet.. plan to pull the lockups out for free wheel .. temporarily,, maybe replace them with manual lockouts...
Also engine is flooding.. TBI bad or maybe is there a fuel regulator in the TB.. more research.. never thought what seems to be a simple vehicle would be such a mess....
thanks again,, awesome info.
03-19-2016, 12:15 AM (This post was last modified: 03-20-2016, 04:04 AM by fixkick.)
easy fix. that good, got power to both main and sub FUSE boxes.
most 1991 have like 10 or more problems, lots... never seen any 1990 car lacking all that, unless i had it for a week.
cars with lots of problem (what i call Barn finds)
are chockablock full of problems, or worse is was used as donor car. (now full of many bad parts or missing or wrong)
idle out of control , really is a last issues, give all else, good brakes are #1. as is brake fluid leaks.
fluid levels,
fresh ATF in the transmission, i bet its black now. pull dip stick, check that< then check level per the operators guide, not like engine check,, but in park hot engine and tranny.
here are just some,.... common issues on BARN CARS.
bad idle is only one minor problem (unless low RPM and engine lost power)
body electrics on this car are cave man simple (non DRL) see head lights above. (now cured easy , with bolts tight)
engine misfiring has over 50 causes. (type "misfire" on my web site, in the search box (freefind box) >>>>> http://www.fixkick.com
car moves slow you say, can be low engine power or trans slip or seized brakes.
to find this simple cause, is easy, just jack up each tire off pavement 1 by 1, can you turn tires/wheel by hand?, yes, and easy then the brakes are not seized.
scratch one , 2 more to go.
if the engine /trans stall test, runs 2000 to 2500 rpm this is normal with brakes hard set, if no brakes set, the car moves, off in 1st or reverses, fast.
if the stall test does not cause RPM to scream{slip} (right foot stomped)then the trans is not slipping.
Btw if rpm was way to low, during the stall test, then that is weak engine power. for sure.
and stall test forward and Reverse do same? same RPM? stomped.
does the stall tests in first and reverse both do same things? 2000rpm stalled, and release brake and car fails to move off fast.?
if RPM goes higher and mph not, that is trans-missing slip.
but if RPM stays low, now,, and will not move fast, hard throttle action, then that is lack of engine power,.
these tests above, prove which it is. (weak engine, slip trans, or brakes seized on all cars)
more tests,?
the 10 cent paper clip test.
jumper the DLC
got 12 codes, (normal) key and running engine, Y/N http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/CEL.html#OBD1codes
level at spec, dip stick height.
not black, ATF lube, but pink, red or maroon, not like tar, not full of metal flakes and for sure filter inside not packed up , as most BARN cars are found.
no vacuum leak at A/t vacuum modulator, (rear of 3sp trans)
tv cable works, not jammed ,end to end.
