Starter on 94 sidekick strange cranking sound

[zukitrek]

I cranked the battery flat, that is not a reason to say starter is slow
but i did that,, then charge battery back to 12.6 and wow, it cranks fast.
so its a no start?

Here is the check list for no starts
1: fuses good (ig-coil, and "FI"No in mine.
2: cel glows keyon, if not stop and fix that.!!!!! Yes it does.
3: cranks robustly , all this is covered on my no start page.
4: spark good on all 4 cylinders (if not? scan for cmp or ckp errors cranking) All four sparks new and wires measuring not more than 12k ohms.
5: compression, good, on all 4. bad engines can run so... Close to factory numbers (200psi) before the no start
6: runs on test fuel now, if not above is wrong or engine is flooded; No it does not.
7: if flooding,crank per the operators guide, WOT, ah it starts.
8: runs on test fuel and not flooded, we now attack fueling and air supply
9: cranking vacuum near 5PSI ,0 is bad, cat melted?

9: ask for complex fueling tests, if car runs on test fuel.

this is not in the FSM, this is covered in ASE training called basics.

Lets take from here, and then maybe add the other threads as we go on.

Thanks!!

[zukitrek]

if the voltage is high and starter is slow, the starter is in fact bad.

Well sir since starter is toast , I'm going to rip it apart. Is no good so it goes to the lab, to learn and discover. Like you said, being curious.


bad armature coils, bad solenoid contractor. bad commutator. some one failed to undercut commutator segments
Will try to find out and learn if it is...
bad brushes, seized, bearings, slippage overrunning clutch, stripped pinion.

Ill keep you posted. Thanks for the tons of info!!

[zukitrek]

Well these 4 tests failed(actually 3, my bad). See here.

   

   

All other continuity/no continuity tests passed.

What you see in green is the mica depth limit, mine mica was more than .008, but the mica diameter failed(passed, error in my number, thought was 1.25, confusion reigns over me), and limit is no less than 1.14, which mine more than the limit, about 1 3/16.

Also when holding gear and turning armature gear would slip/not move although I don't know if that work booths ways, because one way would slip the other it would turn.


Here these pics.

   

Armature damage.

   

Mica depth.

Ill try to get the Beck off ebay.

Thanks!!!

[zukitrek]

the old books on starters cover this, say in 1960 the shop had the tools then.... long ago, $1.65 shop labor. long long gone.....
Commutator 101?
What you see in red have not been tested, green passed.
1: use a meter check that each segment is not grounded to shaft.
2: and each segment to each adjacent is shorted. (loop of coil)
3: then connect armature to growler, ( mag tester you dont have) if growls, the armature is bad. hopeless.
4: all that passes. we use a lathe to turn commutator. until pretty .(flat and true and not mangled)
5: then undercut the segments, your's is a bloody mess, In which picture? (if not?, the bushes bounce, so....... that be that)
[color=##32CD32]6: new brushes,[/color] Brushes were replaced about 2 months ago. Inspected them again and all passed. bushings, and bearings, as found.
7: new pinon clutch, new solenoid, These are the ones that have not been replaced.
done.
now you know why nobody does that. why spend $200 shop labor on a $70 starter, why?

All other continuity tests passed. Maybe a deep hidden Gremlin?

PS:How was your trip home?

Javier

[zukitrek]

Im updating what I did following FSM steps. And not all of them were done.

Javier

[zukitrek]

Im just exploring with and learning. Anyways car does not run for now (doing other jobs in the down time). Will let you know what happened.

Javier.

[zukitrek]

Good day to you sir. Well i insisted and insisted, I cleaned all grounds and car fired up with old starter. I respect your knowledge so it must have been something I was checking/testing wrong that misled you. Well after a long time fiddling with idle (was way too high for me) and car really warmed up, timing spot on, I revved the car to 5k rpm and when left off gas pedal, the needle dropped all the way until it shut itself off. Now is the weird cranking and it won't turn on. It was not overheated also as Ive heard that overheated cars sometimes won't turn after they cool down. Is this fuel related/carb or what else could it be?

Thanks for all your time.

Javier

[zukitrek]

imagine staring in Siberia with wrong engine oil, and 300 amps sucking.? No, don't live there and certainly not planning too. but for those folks I pity them.
the starter is designed for all places on earth , temperatures and altitude,
it is and analog world and starter.


"heard that overheated cars sometimes "won't turn"
heard? that what? exactly,?That when they warm up and they ride their car for a short period, engine dies and then they won't sat art until it cools a bit.
won't turn, what does that mean, wont crank, lots of parts turn , but the crank shaft cranks.It does crank and turns it just hard for it to fire. I always mentioned that it crank, but sound was weird and we deducted it to be a bad starter after various tests. But it always turned.
my guess is you read overheated engine may not start and run and sustain running? later, sure! Yes, correct.

sure, engine damage is unlimited, if overheated, ever watch race cars smoke and burn up and seize and engine, and even throw a rod out of crank case? cracked head, blown head gasket, warped head.
what do you think and engine does, with only air for water, (it roasts to death) I know, LOL!!

I think is fuel related somehow. Maybe me messing with float bowl level or something and idle speed. Waited for it "cool" down, raised the idle speed and after some struggling car started again. Turned it off and started right away., You mentioned it before. Carbs are a pain to get them right!!

Ill keep you posted.

[fixkick]

the starter was bad.
as stated many times.(PM)
power in good, voltage input good, power out weak even with spark plugs out.
bad starter, by pure physics, (engine not seized , starter pinion not seized)
now with photos, what a sad old pathetic starter.

---

we found that jumper starts fail.
11vdc across starter post to case, cranking. good.
no ammeter to see if the normal 100 amps flows, my guess yes, it does, based on 11vdc above , normal drop. (in battery feed, and cables not dropping at all)
the starter has 11v x 100a = 1000 watts input, that is 1.5 Horse power,
that power, fails to create 1.5HP, so the starter is bad. or is eating that power (turning it to heat)
the start output is weak, for any of 10 reasons. non of which matters, as the SUB parts are not sold on your island.
the starter can have bad bearings and allow the armature to hit field coils, and other odd failures. (all starters end like this)
slipping overruning clutch
bad brush, wrecked commutator (seen above)
bad field coils.
solenoid contactor burned up.
Pinion gear stripped, damaged and binding to fly ring gear.
armature coils open or shorted, or shorted to amerture segments. (growler tests fail)
broken coils to communator segments.
commutator, segments (mica's) not undercut now (yes), allowing brushes to bounce.
and more.

[zukitrek]

Yes it looks that way, right? But somehow she's been firing up ever since. I did skip telling you that, before I fired her up that day, I had opened it up again, sanded commutator segments and cleaned grooves as well as solenoid contacts. Was that a factor on it working again? I don't know? Why did it fail all those days? Intermittent failure? Who knows? I do know that right now is working. Maybe the next crucial time it is going to fail big time? But I can not get a new starter now, not yet. Booster now is failing, failed or something else. But I do know it was also affecting performance (not related to starter, but to idling). Plugged it and car idles just perfect timing spot on as per FSM rules.

Will let you know.

Javier