Engine turns over but wont start, no spark to plugs

[robbybobby]

New to the site. Just some background information:
1992 Geo Tracker 2 door convertible, 5 speed, 4x4, A/C and power steering
I bought the Tracker a couple weeks ago and have been fixing parts on it to get it drivable. (new clutch and cable, fuel pump and filter, radiator, etc.) I got it running well and have been driving it with no issues for several days. On the way home last night, went to start the engine this is the sequence of events:

1) Started up and ran for a few seconds, started running rough and died.
2) Smoke started coming out from under the hood, so I raised the hood to see what was going on, nothing noticeable.
3) Tried to start engine again, would turn over but not start
4) At this point, lots of smoke! Jumped out to look, wires were on fire!
5) Got the fire put out. Definitely won't start now.

The wires which caught fire are on left side of engine under intake manifold coming from the 2 VSV. I believe this has the wiring for the O2 sensor (which goes across to the other side of engine) bundled in it as well.

Noticed a fuse was blown in the FI spot but I replaced. It was a 30A (obviously wrong size, should be 15A). I checked all fuse holes in box and they are all getting power with key turned on. I have replaced the wiring for where it caught fire, checked to make sure I am getting power at the VSV plugs now (seem to be getting power now). There were 2 blue wires which got burnt up, one comes from the wire bundle to ECU, the other comes from the distributor plug. Which VSV does the blue wire from distributor plug go to (red or blue)?

Tried to start and nothing. Car will turn over but not start. I checked all spark plugs, NO fire. Checked for power coming out of ignition coil to distributor, I am getting power to distributor with key on.

A few notes from reading information:
- Check engine light has not come on this entire time
- The tach does not move any when trying to crank

Is this an ignition problem or ECU problem? Distributor?
Ignition control Module? Ignition Coil? ECU? not sure where to go from here.

On another note, the engine started having trouble starting first thing before the fire. Would have to turn over engine and pump the gas for a bit to get it going and it would run rough for a few seconds. It didn't do this when I first got it running. Could this be caused by the same issue as the wires catching fire I assume?

I plan to attempt retrieving of codes from ECU when I get home. Thanks in advance for the expertise and help!

Robby

[fixkick]

WELCOME ! Robby

New to the site. Just some background information:
1992 Geo Tracker 2 door convertible, 5 speed, 4x4, A/C and power steering (which engine?)
I bought the Tracker a couple weeks ago and have been fixing parts on it to get it drivable. (new clutch and cable, fuel pump and filter, radiator, etc.) I got it running well and have been driving it with no issues for several days.
On the way home last night, went to start the engine this is the sequence of events:

1) Started up and ran for a few seconds, started running rough and died.

2) Smoke started coming out from under the hood, so I raised the hood to see what was going on, nothing noticeable.
3) Tried to start engine again, would turn over but not start
4) At this point, lots of smoke! Jumped out to look, wires were on fire!
5) Got the fire put out. Definitely won't start now.

The wires which caught fire are on left side of engine under intake manifold coming from the 2 VSV. I believe this has the wiring for the O2 sensor (which goes across to the other side of engine) bundled in it as well.

depends on which engine, this and if calif or federal 02 sensor.

the o2 wires hit the exhaust and shorted, this is the all time top fail on most cars, with wires not tied back like new.






Noticed a fuse was blown in the FI spot but I replaced.
It was a 30A (obviously wrong size, should be 15A). he (PO) DID that and he caused the fire.

I checked all fuse holes in box and they are all getting power with key turned on.
I have replaced the wiring for where it caught fire, checked to make sure I am getting power at the VSV plugs now (seem to be getting power now).
There were 2 blue wires which got burnt up, one comes from the wire bundle to ECU, the other comes from the distributor plug.
Which VSV does the blue wire from distributor plug go to (red or blue)?


Tried to start and nothing.
Car will turn over but not start.
I checked all spark plugs, NO fire.
Checked for power coming out of ignition coil to distributor, I am getting power to distributor with key on.

A few notes from reading information:
- Check engine light has not come on this entire time, (no power to ECU or the PO, pulled the lamp to hide DTC errors)
- The tach does not move any when trying to crank

Is this an ignition problem or ECU problem? Distributor? (all the above it is)
Ignition control Module? Ignition Coil? ECU? not sure where to go from here.
dont worry this easy problem, but tedious fix.


On another note, the engine started having trouble starting first thing before the fire.
Would have to turn over engine and pump the gas for a bit to get it going and it would run rough for a few seconds.
It didn't do this when I first got it running.
Could this be caused by the same issue as the wires catching fire I assume? YES iT WAS

I plan to attempt retrieving of codes from ECU when I get home. Thanks in advance for the expertise and help!

Robby

ok the 30 amp fuse for sure burned up major power wires.
but i can not help you much not knowing which engine it is,, 8v or 16v. TBI or MPI.

---

i dont think its the 02 sensor
the O2 blows IG-coil each time and never FI.
all the blue wires have a stripe, so is it blue-black (strip is black)
????
if yes that wire is FI main power.
any wire can short, but the top loads on that FI wire
are,fuel pump line shorted.
the FI feed blue-blk powers the distributor Cmp but IGcoil fuse runs the COIL and ignitor.
so the DIzzy needs 2 fuses to make spark and a working ECU.

as you can see igcoil runs the CEL lamp if lamp is good then ECU is bad. or has lost power.

id bet pins b1 AND b7 ARE 0V IN TO ECU , NO POWER.

NO MY GUESS.

MOST CARS BURN UP FI for these reasons
1: ECU shorted. the infamous bad caps, deal.
2: fuel pump (unplug fuel pump relay and get power back to ECU, and see if fuse holds.) it wont run but you can test with TEST FUEL in this mode.
3: or wires shorted (blue-black) anywhere, since yours burned up not under dash but hood, then I PICK THIS.




my guess 8v engine

---

and do not forget the full power page
here.
DISTRIBUTION 8v and 16v, BOTH !
http://www.fixkick.com/power-elect/95%20...istra1.pdf

[robbybobby]

WELCOME ! Robby

New to the site. Just some background information:
1992 Geo Tracker 2 door convertible, 5 speed, 4x4, A/C and power steering (which engine?)
I bought the Tracker a couple weeks ago and have been fixing parts on it to get it drivable. (new clutch and cable, fuel pump and filter, radiator, etc.) I got it running well and have been driving it with no issues for several days.
On the way home last night, went to start the engine this is the sequence of events:

1) Started up and ran for a few seconds, started running rough and died.

2) Smoke started coming out from under the hood, so I raised the hood to see what was going on, nothing noticeable.
3) Tried to start engine again, would turn over but not start
4) At this point, lots of smoke! Jumped out to look, wires were on fire!
5) Got the fire put out. Definitely won't start now.

The wires which caught fire are on left side of engine under intake manifold coming from the 2 VSV. I believe this has the wiring for the O2 sensor (which goes across to the other side of engine) bundled in it as well.

depends on which engine, this and if calif or federal 02 sensor.

the o2 wires hit the exhaust and shorted, this is the all time top fail on most cars, with wires not tied back like new.






Noticed a fuse was blown in the FI spot but I replaced.
It was a 30A (obviously wrong size, should be 15A). he (PO) DID that and he caused the fire.

I checked all fuse holes in box and they are all getting power with key turned on.
I have replaced the wiring for where it caught fire, checked to make sure I am getting power at the VSV plugs now (seem to be getting power now).
There were 2 blue wires which got burnt up, one comes from the wire bundle to ECU, the other comes from the distributor plug.
Which VSV does the blue wire from distributor plug go to (red or blue)?


Tried to start and nothing.
Car will turn over but not start.
I checked all spark plugs, NO fire.
Checked for power coming out of ignition coil to distributor, I am getting power to distributor with key on.

A few notes from reading information:
- Check engine light has not come on this entire time, (no power to ECU or the PO, pulled the lamp to hide DTC errors)
- The tach does not move any when trying to crank

Is this an ignition problem or ECU problem? Distributor? (all the above it is)
Ignition control Module? Ignition Coil? ECU? not sure where to go from here.
dont worry this easy problem, but tedious fix.


On another note, the engine started having trouble starting first thing before the fire.
Would have to turn over engine and pump the gas for a bit to get it going and it would run rough for a few seconds.
It didn't do this when I first got it running.
Could this be caused by the same issue as the wires catching fire I assume? YES iT WAS

I plan to attempt retrieving of codes from ECU when I get home. Thanks in advance for the expertise and help!

Robby

ok the 30 amp fuse for sure burned up major power wires.
but i can not help you much not knowing which engine it is,, 8v or 16v. TBI or MPI.

---

i dont think its the 02 sensor
the O2 blows IG-coil each time and never FI.
all the blue wires have a stripe, so is it blue-black (strip is black)
????
if yes that wire is FI main power.
any wire can short, but the top loads on that FI wire
are,fuel pump line shorted.
the FI feed blue-blk powers the distributor Cmp but IGcoil fuse runs the COIL and ignitor.
so the DIzzy needs 2 fuses to make spark and a working ECU.

as you can see igcoil runs the CEL lamp if lamp is good then ECU is bad. or has lost power.

id bet pins b1 AND b7 ARE 0V IN TO ECU , NO POWER.

NO MY GUESS.

MOST CARS BURN UP FI for these reasons
1: ECU shorted. the infamous bad caps, deal.
2: fuel pump (unplug fuel pump relay and get power back to ECU, and see if fuse holds.) it wont run but you can test with TEST FUEL in this mode.
3: or wires shorted (blue-black) anywhere, since yours burned up not under dash but hood, then I PICK THIS.




my guess 8v engine

---

and do not forget the full power page
here.
DISTRIBUTION 8v and 16v, BOTH !
http://www.fixkick.com/power-elect/95%20...istra1.pdf

Ok, it's an 8 valve.
I tried testing for codes with the CEL and nothing. Couldn't get the light to come on at all.
The fuel pump relay is good, ruled that out already...
The wire is blue with black stripe. So does it matter which VSV it connects to? Paired with the white/green wire (red plug) or the green/yellow wire (blue plug)?
Thanks, working on it now so which direction should I head?

---

Also on the plug going into the distributor:
White white reading 10v with key on
Black wire is ground
Blue with black stripe wire isn't reading anything... Should it be?

[robbybobby]

On the ECU plugs:
Green plug - wires that showed voltage with key on were pink, solid blue, and solid white.
Yellow plug - only wire with voltage was solid brown

[fixkick]

ok,
vsv no each vsv has that power wire, its just a daisy chained power wire. blue black.

Paired with the white/green wire (red plug) ive no clue where this is, a white wire?
or the green/yellow wire (blue plug)? look above see it? the EGR VSV?
there are 3 vsv.
EGR, EVAP, and Dashpot. each is wired just like the drawing above.


dizzy wires:
the white wire is CMP out of the dizzy, and should never ever be 10v only 0v or 5v, it make a square wave as you crank (or run) 0v 5v 0v 5v repeats. to get 5vdc there is a very bad sign, or the ECU has lost its ground or power to the ecu.
black is ground. 0v

where to head, you are in the wrong place now. the dizzy is and input to the ECU. and that is not first things.
the ECU is first. and first is POWER it IT.
like a said , pins B1 and B7 are #1
if it has 12vdc power then the next to read is
the 5v pin.
that is most easy to read at the TPS pin, Gray-red wire, it must be near 5v, 4.75 to 5.25V

ah green plug, yes the ECU green plug. that is the power side
the yellow plug (white new) is the signals pins,.
memory wire is hot. ok so fuse to that is good. white.
pink there is no pink wire, so must be faded, B8 red?

Blue is WRONG. dead wrong.
solid blue means you are seeing IG coil power, feed through the main relay this means the ECU is blown or the ECU is no longer grounded
all the A pins are dead, because the ECU is dead
the ECU is dead because MAIN is dead.
can i assume this is a usa car, and not European with an immobilizer, ? surely there are no GEO's with this on or continent.

on our ECU the 56b30 its just a diode to ground on B15. blue
the only way to blow up that diode inside , (seen it) is by hot wiring the fuel pump relay and landing on B15 blue by accened and boom the diode explodes.
b15 at 12v.
there is only one other possible way , that is the ECU lost its ground. at B2 and B10

g105 ground wire on dizzy bolt missing or loose?
G106 thermostat housing ground lug missing,fell off or loose?
G107 lug on wiper cover bolt? missing, loose?
keyon
all i need now is the voltage on B2 (black-green at green ecu socket)
then at B10 black-blue (same green conn) both are 0v ECU power ground points. critical.



the ECU pin out is here.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ecu-8v-sig-li...olts1w.jpg

do not get confused by suzuki calling GREEN B and Geo calling it A. (GM GEO sillyness that)
the big pins are on the green connector. power. and ground.
so b15 is geo B15

we only need to find out why MAIN is dead.
it must be closed, anytime the key is on. must.
if not ALL is dead.

---

here is the white ecu connector and all voltages, all yours will be dead until main relay starts working.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ecu-8v-sig-li...olts2w.jpg

[robbybobby]

Ok, so all the wires match up to the diagram for the green ECU plug. Here are the readings (all with key on):
A1 - 0.28
A2 - 0
A3 - 0
A4 - 0
A5 - 0
A6 - 0.28
A7 - 0.28
A8 - 0
A9 - 12
A10 - 0
A11 - 0
A12 - not used
A13 - 0
A14 - 0.28
A15 - 11.88
A16 - 11.88
A17 - 0

G 105, 106, and 107 are all connected correctly and ground tight.

In case it helps, the wires that got burned in the fire were:
Black ground wire going to thermostat housing
Yellow with black stripe (O2 sensor)
Two blue with black stripe wires (to VSV plugs)
One green with white (red colored VSV plug)
One green with yellow (blue colored VSV plug)

[fixkick]

Ok, so all the wires match up to the diagram for the green ECU plug. Here are the readings (all with key on):
the below are GM numbers
GM did not swap numbers (thank gosh ) but did the letters.

A1 - 0.28 12vdc power is dead, main is dead.
A2 - 0
A3 - 0
A4 - 0
A5 - 0
A6 - 0.28
A7 - 0.28 12vdc power, main is dead.
A8 - 0
A9 - 12
A10 - 0
A11 - 0
A12 - not used
A13 - 0
A14 - 0.28
A15 - 11.88 (this wire must be 0.7vdc, or the diode is blown to hell on main PCB inside the ECU.)
A16 - 11.88
A17 - 0

G 105, 106, and 107 are all connected correctly and ground tight.

In case it helps, the wires that got burned in the fire were:
Black ground wire going to thermostat housing (that is the main ground to the ECU, bad news)
Yellow with black stripe (O2 sensor)
Two blue with black stripe wires (to VSV plugs)
One green with white (red colored VSV plug)
One green with yellow (blue colored VSV plug)
are you saying all those burned up? every one? im sure some were collateral damage. the can not in them selves get hot.
only the black can burn or the blue-black.

i need only 2 readings, KEYON.
Suzuki or GM(geO)
Green White(now yellowed)
B1 A1 must be 12v reads 0
A10&2 B10/2 MUST BE 0V ??????? THIS IS GROUND, IT MUST READ 0 VOLTS.

MY Drawing above is Suzuki real
if pin B1 is 12v (it is)
and A10 is 0v, the diode is blown
if A10 read 12v that means you blue up the ECU main ground.

just 2 readings and bam , cause.

---

did you hot wire the Fuel pump relay? this will blow up any ECU, in a flash, just be off 1 tiny pin and boom , bad $400 ECU.
seen this so many times. its funny,

let me explain how the main relay works, (USA)
the ECU has no power until the main relay energizes.
that means the ecu can not do it's own digital activation of the main relay, (chicken and egg rules)
but the ECU does do that with one simple part. a diode. (its always there and always works unless....)
the ECU grounds the coil of the main relay , just like my schematic shows.
so any time the relay is dead
and in your case the coil is dead. too, 12vdc on coil, (low side)
then the diode is blown to hell (it can be seen blown to hell) or the ECU has no grounds. at Suzuki B2 and B10. (ground)

[fixkick]

try the blow page (DC power tests)

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU-8v.html#blow


the next test is the ECU actual ground pins
with one test we know whats up

now the 30 amp deal
the wires can not handle 30 amps.
so when the short happened, this causes either the power wires on that feed to melt or the grounds wire. (or both)
in your case both.
the wire next to those melted are, collateral damaged, melted plastic , melts the insulation on a good wire.


top reasons for PO to do that? (used the wrong fuse 100 % over)?
1: fuel pump shorted, or the fuel pump wires shorted, at any point from relay to pump !!!! very common.
2: ECU shorts, all 1992, ECU the Caps in side all short, 1 or 2 caps. all do that 1 time. until you kick those damn rubicons out out the ECU.
3: and short at all in the blue-black feed, (random in nature)


all 2 doors
remove left rear tail light lens, easy.
see those pink big wires, those are pump power
look for burning
and make sure the 2pm pump ground lug to body there, is not bad. it loves to fail here. loves. its exposed to road salts.

[robbybobby]

Ok, so here are all the reading I got off the ECM:

Testing straight from green plug:
A1 - 0.28
A2 - 0
A3 - 0
A4 - 0
A5 - 0
A6 - 0.28
A7 - 0.28
A8 - 0
A9 - 12
A10 - 0
A11 - 0
A12 - not used
A13 - 0
A14 - 0.28
A15 - 11.88
A16 - 11.88
A17 - 0

Testing straight from yellow plug:
B1 - 11.7
B2-B7 - 0
B8 - 11.4
B9-B24 - 0

Testing pins on yellow slot coming out of ECM (what would connect to yellow plug) WITH green plug plugged into ECM:
B1 - 0
B2 - 11.76
B3 - 11.76
B4 - 11.76
B5 - 0
B6 - 11.7
B7 - 11.43
B8 - 0
B9 - 0
B10 - 0
B11 - 0
B12 - 0
B13 - 4.34
B14 - 4.34
B15 - 4.52
B16 - 4.34
B17 - 4.7
B18 - 4.7
B19 - 0.01
B20 - 4.34
B21 - 0
B22 - 3.4
B23 - 4.36
B24 - 0

I will check the fuel pump relay again to see if I can find anything there.
Since the ground wire that goes to thermostat is for ECM, and got shorted/burned, I bet this was the issue...?
I took pictures of the ECM, will post those to see if it helps.

---

Here are the pics of the ECM board. Let me know if you can see anything wrong. I am not that familiar with computer boards. I couldn't seem to find any acid leaking or notice of damage.
           

[robbybobby]

So I pulled the left tail light, checked fuel pump wires. All looks good, no damaged wires or connectors. Ground is also tight.

Checked the main relay and fuel pump relay for signs of damage. No damage to wires or plugs...

I know I'm not getting voltage read on A1, A5, A7, and A14 which are the 4 wires that caught fire. I'm at a loss as to where to check now...