suzuki intake and TB swap from 91+ to 89-90 car

[pablo4444]

I have suzuki vitara /escudo sidekick tracker/ with engine G16A 8v 1,6 59Kw 80ps 4wd manual 5 gears transmission 2 doors ET TA cabrio /convertible/ year manufacture 1990 no AC. I have to replace /swap/ the old intake manifold along with throttle body for a newer generation intake and TB . Unfortunately, I have a difficult time find some old parts that match exactly the specs of my old unit, The closest I have found and bought from scrapyard is 91+ intake and throttle body unit. I have connected all tubes water air vacuum, no problem at all , but I am now standing in front of  last obstacle. 

On old unit  89-1990 I have 6 pin square white connector with 4 wires /pink white green black/ going from TPS and 2 wires /green red/ comming from ISC. And then I have 2  wires /yellow red / comming from injector and those are ended up with white 2 pin plastic connector. In engine area all connectors have been allways connected, 6 pin white and 2 pin white connector /not speaking of other sensor wires those are sorted out/

The new unit 1991+ wiring is bit different /simpler has only 6 wires/  it also has 4 wires /same color as old unit/ comming from TPS to the 6 pin square white connector /gold color plated pins/ but other 2 wires are comming directly from injector also to the remaining 2 pins of the 6 pin connector /silver plated pins/, and there is not another 2 wire cable from injector?

Maybe you can help me with this.
 Can I just leave it like this and plug only 6 pin or do I have to create /take 2 wires with 2 pin connector from old unit/ and bridge connection between two wires that come from injector to 6 pin connector and connect it that way?


Or my second idea is to cut two wires from 6 pin connector / comming from injector/ and fix them to 2 pin old plastic connector and then create a new 2 wire connection between iISC socket /mounted on the ISC unit black plastic with 2 pins silver plated/  to previously cutted off 2 positions on the 6 pin connector, so that the wiring will be exactly the same as on old unit. 

 I will be very happy if you can give me  your opinion. I am optimistic it can be done somehow because its the same simple engine and almost the same intake and throttle body.  Also I am sorry english language is not my normal language. Thank you

[fixkick]

I have suzuki vitara /escudo sidekick tracker/ with engine G16A 8v 1,6 59Kw 80ps 4wd manual 5 gears transmission 2 doors ET TA cabrio /convertible/ year manufacture 1990 no AC. I have to replace /swap/ the old intake manifold along with throttle body for a newer generation intake and TB . Unfortunately, I have a difficult time find some old parts that match exactly the specs of my old unit, The closest I have found and bought from scrapyard is 91+ intake and throttle body unit. I have connected all tubes water air vacuum, no problem at all , but I am now standing in front of  last obstacle. 

On old unit  89-1990 I have 6 pin square white connector with 4 wires /pink white green black/ going from TPS and 2 wires /green red/ comming from ISC. And then I have 2  wires /yellow red / comming from injector and those are ended up with white 2 pin plastic connector. In engine area all connectors have been allways connected, 6 pin white and 2 pin white connector /not speaking of other sensor wires those are sorted out/

The new unit 1991+ wiring is bit different /simpler has only 6 wires/  it also has 4 wires /same color as old unit/ comming from TPS to the 6 pin square white connector /gold color plated pins/ but other 2 wires are comming directly from injector also to the remaining 2 pins of the 6 pin connector /silver plated pins/, and there is not another 2 wire cable from injector?

Maybe you can help me with this.
 Can I just leave it like this and plug only 6 pin or do I have to create /take 2 wires with 2 pin connector from old unit/ and bridge connection between two wires that come from injector to 6 pin connector and connect it that way?


Or my second idea is to cut two wires from 6 pin connector / comming from injector/ and fix them to 2 pin old plastic connector and then create a new 2 wire connection between iISC socket /mounted on the ISC unit black plastic with 2 pins silver plated/  to previously cutted off 2 positions on the 6 pin connector, so that the wiring will be exactly the same as on old unit. 

 I will be very happy if you can give me  your opinion. I am optimistic it can be done somehow because its the same simple engine and almost the same intake and throttle body.  Also I am sorry english language is not my normal language. Thank you

the gen1 and Gen 2 parts are very different 89-90 to gen 2, 91 to 95 USA.
I guess you needed the manifold only or just the TB or both,  what was needed,? or bad before. So I can see whats up.

the old ECU may not  like 2 things, wrong injector and wrong ISC .

different injector
and injector TPS  set wired different,
the ISC on the old car is 6 ohms and new is 12, so using wrong ECU can blow up this transistor for ISC line.

here is my pageS on this.   You are correct the large 5in plug is wired not the same 90/91 (gen1/2) transition.

I guess you seen my  schematics here
gen 1 (((( page 2) 89/90



gen2; (91+) page 11 shows the 6 pin  plug:

DIFFS:

https://fixkick.com/specs/89-diffs.html





cheers,  happy new year.

[pablo4444]

Hello. I need to replace whole unit because about a year ago I noticed that coolant fluid was dissapearing /1 hour driving 1 litre coolant gone aprox figure/ Also high idle speed /10 seconds 2100, 1 minute 1500 and finally 1300 when hot engine/ I started to look for the problem. First I pressured the system using cooling system test pump with gauge while engine was cold, Ive noticed minor leak on one radiator hose and replaced it for new one. But still coolant needed to be topped up after couple of hours driving. So I figured out that there may be a cracked head, head gasket or manifold, as well as leaky water pump. I took out head, went to shop to have head pressure tested and then surface machined /in case it was warped/ I had feeling that coolant is maybe fed to the piston area or to the oil compartments of the engine due failed head gasket or structural crack on the head. Head came back tested and no cracks has been found, so I replaced gasket, and started to put back intake and TB. First I cleaned everything and by doing so I found crack on the bottom side of the intake manifold exactly where the coolant runs and the crack has been so extensive that after I cleaned the whole area I noticed, that its about 7cm long /2,7 inch/ And then it all maked sense to me I had also issues with high idle speed /I tried everything from this forum set the correct idle speed every test Ive read I tried, new vacuum hoses, new intake gasket, tested all sensors, replaced map sensor cleaned EGR and everywhere new gaskets, timing set, valve lashes but nothing helped/ So the false air has been comming from the cracked gasket, and also I could not see the coolant dripping under the car, because it has vaporised from the hot intake manifold when engine was running. Ok my next idea was that I just need to replace the intake manifold and I will put the old TB on top of that and job done, but unfortunately I double checked all sensors and I found that injector is not spraying fuel properly just dripping, and that is the reason I am replacing the whole TB. I am trying to save this car from scrapyard, because its been many years part of our family and it never let me down out there, and sometimes its been rough.

Ok I am think that I will try to copy exactly the wires and connectors from the old unit and put it on new unit as this is my only hope at this point. And if ECU will go dead then I will replace it with 91+ ecu and put the wiring back like it was before, and then give it a try.

Oh and just last question. Please do you know the position of the wires /top and bottom its vertical/ from the ISC socket /black 2 pins/ on 91+ unit? On old unit its green and red, I just need to know which one is on top of the socket. Thank you very much

[fixkick]

your distibutor in the 89/90 will never work on any 91up ECU. 
no change. 
the 89/90 ECU is fuel injection only ECU it never makes or times spark ever.
the 89/90 has vacuum advance, mech centrifugal advance, and VR pickup timer with its own ignitor.  nothing at all 91+
even the cam on the 91 gear end is different I am told. so that too one more big problem JUMPING GEN 1 EFI to GEN2 EFI.

the first place to look  for coolant not hitting the ground is oil pan (OIL turns to milk chocolate drink fast)
then next is spun rod bearing , bad old this bad is toxic to all those ,a mains,cam.

cracked where in the below TB Plenum chamber or to earth. outside.?
cracked inside is only one cause ever, that is running pure water for coolant,  doomed it is ,even crack the block easy.

that manifold crack if you  idle any engine parked until  180f is hit  30minutes, the green fluild lands on the ground , under 14psi pressures
no better test exist for step one,  ever.
most these old engines,  G16,  30 years old now.  the IAC thermal idle valve is bad. just like thermostats. and for same reason old wax pellet inside.
next is bad FPR

for idle controls to work after calibrating  it. 800 hot.
is this.
82C coolant or more, a normal hot engine
1: Dash pot not stuck extended. (eyeball glance see the DP tip has  gap, proving DP is not dead. (dead it extends and races like mad)
2: no vacuum leaks at all but one, ISC  and TV screw to calibrate  it to 50% duty cycle, if any vacuum leak happens now the engine must race fast, with full power on tap.
3: the IAC must be closed hot, 100% closes or idle will fail.
that is how the 8v works, if the ISC can not correct the leak by ECU closing the valve ISC fails closed and engine screams out of control.

just 3 causes hot. (cold is whole other story)
once you see freeze damage, expect more.... can be small and ground , even block bad. OIL pan full of milk?
if not oil in pan and only intake plenum cracked that burns the stuff. and tail pipe end steams all day long. just like bad head  gaskets and warpped heads do. same.
 

key photos
89/95 actual


Plug or pinch all vacuum lines to find leaks, and things on the end of hose can leak too. (do smoke tests)
here is my horsed up  8v induction system all ways to leak from sunday, no?  even the brake booster leaking and more., DP stuck too (extended)





one test hard to do on 90 but easy on 91
is defeat the ISC, (pinch its air hose 91) or on 90 try to remove its pin in the ISC connector to make it dead. and RPM fails from 800 to 400 Hot on good engine or stalls.
if not and still races, there is one hell of vacuum leak here.
Close the TV screw. at TV stop screw turned CCW, if races huge leak. of air.
more the intake is A/T and the last guy put A/T MAN, there and the A/t modulator nipple leaks. dang. (poor job of blocking A;T nipple for M/T car.
pcv hose leaks, egr gasket missing, common. dash pot diapram cracked or same on FPR and leaks fuel at FPR vac nipple.
VSV stuck open or hose to it cracked.
freeze damaged ISC, just saw one and cracked inside and leaks air or coolant.

[fixkick]

the IAC is here all years 89 to 95 usa TB G16



i did this to 3 TB to learn this secret.
-10F freeze deep
+40F, re-fridge milk temps.
+150 pan of hot water . thermometer
must closes at 150f or Idle RPM goes mad, races.  it is and AIR thermostat. in effect.

[fixkick]

we had one guy here, could cover the air horn with his huge hands blocking off all air flow to hot engine, and engine ran.
no bull.
was cracked inside TB deep, where nobody can see. dang.

[pablo4444]

Thank you for reply,

To overcome the differences like you said that 89-90 has vacuum advance hose and 91+ has not, yes I solved that by using old hose splitter to create the same ported vacuum on a distibutor. So my old ECU will get the same data as has before, then you mentioned that old ISC worked on 6 Ohm and new is 12 Ohm, for me I am not expert, but when I looked up in my old notebooks from school, I calculated that old ISC unit was taking 2 Amps 12V from the system and new one will be taking current 1 Amp 12V, but voltage stays the same, and that was very good point you mentioned that.

And why do you think that distributor will not work? it is the same firing order and ok maybe I have to play with the timing set up instead of minus 8 defrees before I will have to come up with different approach, but as far as I know if camshaft is running clockwise and distributor gear is running anticlockwise its the same on both 89-90 and 91+ engines and they should have the same speeds /same number of teeth and diameter/, I do not see any reason why I could not get any spark in the right order to the cylinders they should be identical.



Thank you for your advice

[pablo4444]

Oh and I forgot to mention I will keep my old 89-90 ECU I am not replacing that with 91+ ECU, I understand that it has completely another wiring.

[fixkick]

Oh and I forgot to mention I will keep my old 89-90 ECU I am not replacing that with 91+ ECU, I understand that it has completely another wiring.

yes I expected that , after all the harnesses are totally not the same, see my 89 difference page.
the same is true in the engine bay
like you stated and more. lots more is not the same
the distributor  and its harness is not the same and ECU 100% totally not the same. even cam shaft back end gears not the same, if you get my drift.
the injector wiring
the TPS wiring
and ISC wiring are not the same. and coil ohms 2x different.  89/90 is 6 ohms coil  and 91_ is 12.  so 91 will not damage the 89/90  ECU but may just be slow? IDK
the TB is not the same. nor its injector. (flow rates can be different on Gen1 to Gen2)

that 6 pin connector is based on the ABOVE wrong.

why not try to keep the same GEN1 TB.  if it checks out ok.  most are OK  unless the IAC fails the 150f hot water test or the iSC is jammped up or worse rattles like mad engine running as many do not, 30 years old. ouch. old.

not saying it can not be done, me, just saying that 6 pin must be wired right, pin for pin, and on the 89 the harness is not wired right for 91+ TB.
so wires must be cut and jumped

if you look close the 91+ has connectorzied ISC  and water heater hoses.
the 89/90 has no such thing, only 2 pig tails wired to the harness unlike the 91. with a plug.

[pablo4444]

Thank you for your reply.

Youre right I need to rewire the connectors pin for pin exactly like its on the 89 TB, and I am doing that today. I decided not to use my old TB, because 2 reasons 1. fuel injector has failed,/even after cleaning/ its not spraying misty fuel its just dripping / I tested for pressure fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator tjey are OK just injector is bad, and second reason throttle valve plate is not closing properly it gets jammed and even after two cleanings its not closing properly its somehow not correctly sitting and not closing like it should be. For me it would be way more easier just to use the 91+ intake manifold and put on it old 89-90 TB, but like I have written its not an option. Yes I can just swap the fuel injector, but then the throttle valve plate will keep jamming and its not operating smoothly.

I have 89-90 car / I call it old unit/ and I bought 91+ intake manifold with TB /I call it new unit/. I took out old intake 89/90 and 89/90 TB and trying to connect new /91+/ intake and 91+ TB to my old car. At the same time I am keeping everything else on my car as it was before I am not replacing anything else /ECU will still be the 89-90/. I noticed that I need to make new ported vacuum connection to the vacuum advance on the distributor /my old 89/90 has vacuum line to the distributor, so I used the old vacuum line which has T splitter and basically copied the same vacuum path, so that ECU will be getting the same signals as before.

Then on the 6 pin white connector 4 pins are the same on both TB they run from TPS, but on old 89/90 TB it like this /4 pin from TPS and remaining 2 pins from ISC/ and separate cable /2wires/ from injector with its own 2 pin white plastic connector

On new 91+TB unit ist /same 4 pins from TPS but other 2 pins directly from injector/ and ISC is not connected to it as on the old unit.

Since I am keeping my old 89/90 ECU I need to make the same connections to new 91+ TB to not to confuse my old 89-90 ECU

So I came up with idea to exactly copy the wires from old to new TB units, meaning cutting two wires from injector and solder on them old 2 pin connector /as it was on old TB/ and connect the two now empty pins with two wires from ISC like its been on old 89/90 TB/ so that the ECU will be thinking that everything is like before.

Only detail I dont know yet is that on the 91+ ISC is black plastic pin /vertical/ and I do not know which wire color is on top and which on the bottom of that connector /as I can see that it on my old TB because there is not connector but wires that run directly from it to the 6 pin connector so I know which color wire goes where. That is the last two wires I need to fix

So please if you will be so kind and give me your opinion on those two cables, so I can perfectly copy the wires for new TB. Thank you very much