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Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - Printable Version

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Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - DesmondGhostRider - 09-29-2015

Hey guys I just bought a 91 Geo Tracker 8 valve and I'm having a few problems. This thing was rigged when I got it and I'm trying to track down the issues. Thank you in advance for any help you give!

First off electrical.
I have check engine light but when I jump the connector pin 2 and 3 it does not flash codes.

No under dash switch has been found.

Vac sensor on engine with blue connector clicks nonstop showing 12v on wire
-----
What I've done

Followed fix kick procedure on setting the distributor

New timing belt install. Lined up cam mark with the 60 mark.
Tried rotating crank 180 degrees to make sure that wasnt the problem.

All fuses and relays tested

Opened ecu and no damage to capicators. Had electronics friend check board and he says it all looks good and used a dom on the diodes and capicators to check.

New spark plugs gapped correctly

Checked each spark plug wire and getting good spark.

Replaced bad fuel pump (car sat for 2 years and it went bad)

Removed air intake pipe and cleaned the injector.
Don't seem to be getting an injector pulse, but idk if it's just bc my dvom is so slow.

Looked down in the throttle body and there is gas.

Spark plugs are wet.

Backfires through the intake.

Backfire indicates that my timing is off, but ive checked it many times and it is right where it needs to be.

Good battery


-----

I don't know what's up with this thing. I've tried to check everything the right way instead of just guessing. Belt and plugs needed to be replaced anyway so I went ahead and sreplaced em. I've got a bit of cash left for this so if I need a tool or something to do this right I can prob handle that.

I own a 95 16 valve tracker as well that runs. I can try swapping compatible parts across to it, if I know what I'm looking for.

I really appreciate any help yall can offer I'm truly stumped and I want to fix it myself instead of taking it somewhere.

The previous owner took it to a shop and they put one of those after market fuel pumps oreillys sells for carburated cars. They had it setup with a house dimmer switch to turn the flow up and down for the gas. :/ I removed all the aftermarket shit and reconnected all the stock wires together.

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - fixkick - 09-29-2015

(09-29-2015, 05:15 AM)DesmondGhostRider Wrote: Hey guys I just bought a 91 Geo Tracker 8 valve and I'm having a few problems. This thing was rigged when I got it and I'm trying to track down the issues. Thank you in advance for any help you give!
you're welcome.
First off electrical.
I have check engine light (running?) but when I jump the connector pin 2 and 3 it does not flash codes.
its B to C pins. (if 4 pins)
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/DiagJump.html

No under dash switch has been found. its where eyes cant go, its on the lower center kick panel, the nag switch, makes CEL glow running.
it is here, if not a CALIF car. only USA and only FED cars.

http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/mileage-cancel-sw-1w.jpg

Vac sensor on engine with blue connector clicks nonstop showing 12v on wire. That is the VSV valve.
there are 3 VSV.
1-EGR blue.
2-EVAP
3-dash pot. which one>?
ah blue code, i almost forgot they have colors.
in most cases its ECU gone nuts. that. (the corner ECU cap , biggest is dried out. is your BLACK?
center line inboard rear vsv is blue.(pair of VSV ) the isolated VSV is EVAP. it goes to evap can.
the blue on Throttle body is ISC valve.
and that one, the blue behind front VSV is the EGR VSV.
and is never open, at idle, unless the idle switch fails (TPS) or the ECU IS CRASHING.
does the under hood vacuum sticker say CALIF?


-----
What I've done

Followed fix kick procedure on setting the distributor

New timing belt install. Lined up cam mark with the 60 mark.
Tried rotating crank 180 degrees to make sure that wasnt the problem.

All fuses and relays tested

Opened ecu and no damage to capacitors. (the can leak or dry out and look good, but have 0uf capacitance, and will never work. like that.
Had electronics friend check board and he says it all looks good and used a Vom on the diodes and capacitors to check.
Caps need cap meter or ESR meter. or its just wasted effort if they look good.


New spark plugs gaped correctly

Checked each spark plug wire and getting good spark.

Replaced bad fuel pump (car sat for 2 years and it went bad)
ahhh engine is dead...
Removed air intake pipe and cleaned the injector. the injector can watched cranking or running, its not like the MPI engine at all. can watch.
Don't seem to be getting an injector pulse, but idk if it's just bc my dvom is so slow. (it will be slow, 5/1000 of second you cant see with any DMM.
takes scope or , NOID LIGHT)
the ECu will not inject if it sees bad spark (3 ways) and if it sees full time wide open throttle on the TPS (called unflood mode, cuts all fuel.


Looked down in the throttle body and there is gas. (it sprays)

Spark plugs are wet. (spark timing ok?) and all 4 sparking?)

Backfires through the intake. (means spark timing way off or worse cam) Im answering serially so watch out... for me..... LOL

Backfire indicates that my timing is off, but ive checked it many times and it is right where it needs to be. (using timing light ? Strobe, and is near 0degrees BTDC?)?????

Good battery


-----

I don't know what's up with this thing. I've tried to check everything ,the right way ,instead of just guessing. Belt and plugs needed to be replaced anyway so I went ahead and sreplaced em. I've got a bit of cash left for this so if I need a tool or something to do this right I can prob handle that.
dont worry its easy to find , glad to help you, is compression over 150PSI x 4?


I own a 95 16 valve tracker as well that runs. I can try swapping compatible parts across to it, if I know what I'm looking for.
the parts are different, just block same and (not pistons) are same, rest is all different , head, and EFI.

I really appreciate any help yall can offer I'm truly stumped and I want to fix it myself instead of taking it somewhere.
WE can , i promise, if you have 2 more tools, DMM (you have) STROBE LIGHT AND COMPRESSION GAUGE. (VACUUM GAUGE Can help as can fuel pressure gauge, but for now spark light. then compression.

The previous owner took it to a shop and they put one of those after market fuel pumps oreillys sells for carbonated cars.
They had it setup with a house dimmer switch to turn the flow up and down for the gas. :/ I removed all the aftermarket shit and reconnected all the stock wires together.

yes that fuel pump deal is real bad.... if done wrong, needs 60psi external pump, (shunt rated)
the FPR on the TB will regulate that down to 35. or so.
but for get the past horrors.


so lets do the easy stuff first , get the CEL working first.
so we can see it flash and if it cant flash it is DEAD for sure.

lamp works. we can test the lamp, easy,

the nag first, of hood tag says, CALIF it has no nag.

if a true canada tracker, with E28 tag, then it has no nag, that sticker means the max to me...
the E03 fed car has the nag, the E33 cal car has no nag.

the hood tag that says just this is NAG car.
here is 95 with same engine
this is a FED tag, see those EPA words?

http://www.fixkick.com/specs/Body-TAGS/html/image_8.html

this gets us off on right foot, are you in USA?
keep the faith!
get CEL working, key on CEL on (is it), nag switch off, jumper B to C see code 12 flash , it must or ECU is toast, "caps, 99% time for sure wet sparks"
get good over 150PSI . compression
get spark timed near 0.
spark wire routed 1,3,4,2, do not read GM book it will be wrong, its CW rotor rotation. your MPI car goes other way....CCW
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/firing8v.jpg
like this , only works unless we time it the other 3 none factory ways,, they work too but this prevents confusion down the line....
you did lash too?
sorry for long post ,busy painting... back later.

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - DesmondGhostRider - 09-29-2015

Engine Light:
B to C is same as what I was calling 2 to 3.

I will check to see if its a CAL car tomoz when I get back to shop. Usually the switches are between the steering wheel and front left speaker in my experience. I will look around and see if the connector is still there. Is it just a 2 pin pigtail?

agree vsv is ECU related. Need to verify the ECU is good before I mess with it any further

-----
Ill swap ecu caps to be safe. if they arent bad now they will be bad soon.

All 4 are sparking and its good spark. All spark wires are working as well.

Grabbing a new timing light tomorrow.

I will get actual compression numbers tomorrow.

I'll grab a vac/fuel pressure gauge tomorrow too. Good thing to have.

Yes I am in USA.

you did lash too? lash?

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - fixkick - 09-29-2015

(09-29-2015, 09:57 AM)DesmondGhostRider Wrote: Engine Light:
B to C is same as what I was calling 2 to 3. (GREAT, and is 4 pins, that tells me lots too) some books do use numbers its ok, no matter what does matter is the pin holes used.


I will check to see if its a CAL car tomoz when I get back to shop.
Usually the switches are between the steering wheel and front left speaker in my experience. (SORRY,no that is not correct. that is on 4door and newer cars.. )
your car is a 1991. and my page on NAG covers this 100% and there are 3 places, from 1989 to 1995, a fact.
sorry but suzuki makes this hard. its like they wanted us to fail, really.....

my guess is the car is FED
and that the NAG is SET, "slide the switch lever", or unplug it forever, (best) the 4 pin conn. 3 wired goes to rear of speedo head, just unplug it so
we can do the flash codes first, its always first. after all if the ECU is screaming for help , it be crazy to move past that, (1st things 1st and all that)
as you can see I do hate the nag, i kill every one i see. it's such a time wasting device.. .
Nobody deserves,. a nag in 2015,,, time to end the panic of 1991 and leaded gas.... its over. now....



I will look around and see if the connector is still there. Is it just a 2 pin pigtail? (nag?) NO ITS 3 PINS
I guess you missed my nag page>? here is my nag page and then my arm.
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/NAG-Lamp.html

[Image: miles1w.jpg]

i sold my 91 tracker, but will never forget the INVISIBLE freak'n nag, as seen here (1991 for real and tracker too....USA, FED E03 , VIN)

[Image: mileage-cancel-sw-1w.jpg]



agree vsv is ECU related. Need to verify the ECU is good before I mess with it any further. (if the nag is removed and ECU is dead, for codes 12
or no codes on demand the ECU is bad)

-----
Ill swap ecu caps to be safe. if they arent bad now they will be bad soon. (LOL, just replace the large corned cap, is it BLACK?????????)

All 4 are sparking and its good spark. All spark wires are working as well.
but is it timed near zero?
but is compression over 150psi (did you do lash with a new belt, its required, in the process) on all 8v.

Grabbing a new timing light tomorrow. (good)

I will get actual compression numbers tomorrow. (vg)

I'll grab a vac/fuel pressure gauge tomorrow too. Good thing to have. (id hold off, but it can find a bad FPR regulator as most are toast now)


Yes I am in USA. GOOD, then it can have a NAG, this is the only country with nag, but never in canada.

you did lash too? lash? (valve lash)

im answering serially again,... sorry....
LASH, aka. valve lifter clearance lash settings.
1991 is 8v, engine head.
and the 8v the belt tension is set with lash loose then corrected at last steps.

step 18
then 40 corrects step 18
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html

this is the long play
the short play is in the 1 sheet in the GATES belt box.

good luck

i use compression tests, as my audit to my self. to see if i did it right
after all if lash is wrong, the valves will burn to a crisp is set too tight or if too loose beat them selves to death(that racket what is that?)

i think my 8v page is the only internet page that shows all the pit falls there are many to say the least.

if compression is good (150+), and spark timed right? and firing NOT set like the OTHER CAR (MPI)
and THE CEL flashes 12s, we can go to the next levels,, RUNNING? cheers to you.

cheers.
the VSVs love to chatter
why?
because if the ECU boots over and over and over.
each boot resets them , so they chatter, and MUST NEVER DO THAT, ever.

i even have a page for just that.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/clicking/clicking.html

there are basic ways to click. MACRO reasons....
1: bad ecu (corn cap, 99% cause or acid leaks same)
2: bad ground to ecu
3: loose ig-coil or FI fuse, (or they (Fuse x2) have hair cracks, replace them) rusty fuses?
4: outputs on ECU shorted, (not inputs)
in truth
this TBI car (nag removed for ever) works just like most other TBI cars.
the diagnostic steps are same, mostly.
compression ok.
cat not melted. (usually makes above fail if melted 100%)) if true, rack back exh, header at head,make a gap there and is compression ok now, oops it started?
EGR not stuck open
engine cam timed to perfection and lash.
spark timed near 0Deg BTDC or as the hood sticker tells you, and spark gap too. per same sticker, and done with TIMING FREEZE SET. (after it runs,use the freeze)
ECU flashes 12s (must or some other very important code like 41,42 , both kill injections now)
Injects.
now runs.


one more.
the distrib cap wires are wiring backwards from the 16v head.
so if reading a GM book you WILL FAIL.
use my drawings, for the 8v and win.
the rotor turns backwards, so #2 on the other side of #1 , if not set up 8v ways, it will never run.
we could do this 1 step at time.

step one remove the freak'n nag, switch, (nirvana happens)

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - DesmondGhostRider - 09-30-2015

Thanks for all the info you clearly know exactly what your talking about! I'll give an update after working on it today. Thanks again!

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - fixkick - 09-30-2015

your very welcome and we will fix it.
the steps are easy,
only if ECU is bad, can it get dicey...

but we can do that too. good luck to you !!!!

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - DesmondGhostRider - 09-30-2015

Flips the switch and tried unconnecting it and no flashing check engine.

Ordered a new capicator and putting the project on hold until I get that fixed first.

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - fixkick - 10-01-2015

the FSM page on this is under topic, step 1, CEL..
it tells you to turn on the key, CEL glow? (is yours out. dead or stuck on glowing)
step 2, if not glowing ever. then the next step is to pull the ECU connectors.
and ground the CEL pin.
It must glow now or the lamp is blown out, or prev. owner removed it, as is so common or other dirty tricks there.
if it glows now, and the ECU has power , on its 2 power pins, connected up. the ECU is bad.

lets drop to basic, ECU.
The CEL glows at key on, to tell you 3 things 1: i have power, 2: I booted ok and seem ok (rudimentry) and last IM not in BACKUP mode (dead)
IT must glow, (not flash, glow) .
Flashing only happens with B to C jumpered on the near battery DLC connector. that too must work. or ECU is bad.

I guess you are failing test 1.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU.html#Tests

the pin to ground to test CEL and not have to rip cluster out is here.
pin B13 is the ECU CEL output pin, the connector MUST BE unplugged first.
if grounding that pin works ,the CLUSTER is working (this is the FSM book step, but the pin varies by engine)
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg



used ECU can be had for$50 on ebay (not the scalpers) but sold by regular folks. its easy to tell that,, the price is fair.
its still a crap shoot. the used one can be worse. many are.
if it never leaked acid, its probably repairable.

one common failure is the corner cap leaks.

seen here very clearly,

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/hell/html/image_4.html
and here.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/hell/html/image_6.html

the acid will find a way to eat up very importrant copper traces, causing total dead ECU or one stuck in backup mode forever.

what is backup mode.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/LimpHome/failsafe.html

it's failsafe, off the cliff. of death. aka, my buddies name Grenade mode...(lol)
cardone sells the ecu for $400 , it be like new...
but is expensive.
i always carry a spare, one that works... as they will be harder to find,.. as time rolls on... some blow up and cant be fixed.
do you mean the lamp fails to ever glow? now?
with the NAG removed?????????

it can glow,
it can be dead (out)
it can flash codes (on demand)
it can even try to flash a code and stop mid stride (auto reboots does that and corner cap is dead)< caused but internal regulator , DROP OUT)

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - DesmondGhostRider - 10-18-2015

I got the new caps and soldered them all in.

CEL is glowing, but does not flash when I put the jumper in. :/

The ISC valve and the injector are clicking at the same pulse. Didn't notice that until today when it was at home where its quieter (towed it home from work)

RE: Got spark, got fuel, got compression, no start :/ - fixkick - 10-18-2015

all ways.......
it glows! stuck glowing, sure..... that means car is a USA car,
and means its not calif car. and not outside USA. (Usa fed law car and...)
and means (all true?) means the NAG lamps is glowing,
see here......
remove the nag wire cable from speedo rear or slide its switch every 50k. (best is to leave the nag switch in the attic ? grin !)

click nag, the slider can be in 3 places.. (yours was hidden you found it)
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/cel-index.html

you tried both positions of switch, and you unplugged the nag cable, seen above.
so its not the nag.! nag is gone, so.....

what is it.?
well the CEL wire is shorted to ground, (unlikely) pin B13 on ECU. shorted to ground in harness... nah.....
or the ECU is bad.


schematic
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg


the ECU when in backup mode (self detected death) will cause lamp to be dead or stick on.
bad ecu. sorry.
or
the 2 wires from DLC are bad. (one is ground, cut or missing, other is diag pin, cut or missing wire) here.? look for damage here and at ECU plug.

what DLC are you using,? engine bay?
only the engine bay DLC is to be used, next to the battery.

most 91's has just a 4 pin plug at battery front. (with rubber cap, do not not use other option (missing options) here. there are some.... there.... all wrong. the DLC has a rubber cap , black.
and B >C is the jump pins,, a paper clip, no plastic clips, only steel clips. or wire jumpers allowed.

it must flash or the ECU is toasted.

http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/fed-car-diag.jpg

FYI:
to get a bench tested ECU to flash? (tells how simple it is)
1: connect power pin and ground to power supply 12v or battery.
2: CEL wires to ECU (12v to lamp and lamp to cel pin on ecu. B13
3: ground the PIN B above. and the Ecu will flash out, all sensors dead. (ecu pin A3 is blue-yel)
see"?
just 6 wires on the bench and bam, it will flash all codes. huge number code. never ending, chain of failures. loops. (all sensors missing here)


More on backup mode
when the ECU boots, it will do self tests, if the self tests go hard failure. it drops to Backup mode. (i call this lawn mower mode, just near fixed spark timing and fixed fueling rates, horrid to extreme this...)
it may run or just flood, most folks report its flood city......
the clicking is ECU failure.
it's rebooting over and over.. can be causes by shorted caps. or main regulator on ECU dead. or overloaded for some reason or gee a weak car battery, 12vdc not 10vdc is correct.
you put caps in Minus to minus plus to plus?