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+--- Thread: Hard start (/thread-hard-start)
Hard start - Lutzz - 01-14-2015
Hi there, This is my first ever post. I have a 1995 model of escudo, H20A engine that has been recently overhauled - new rings, seals, gaskets etc.There was also an engine oil/filter and tranny oil replacement, fuel filter checked and replaced, new spark plugs.
Initially, starting up the engine was ok. However, it loses power whenever it's loaded by a tiny bit, e.g. like putting it on drive = engine stalls.
Yesterday, when the mechanic tried to start it up again, it couldn't start on all 6 spark plugs. But when any of the plugs is removed, the car would start, no problem.
What could be the cause? My mechanic thinks it's timing issue but not so sure. Hence the query.
RE: Hard start - fixkick - 01-14-2015
Welcome
95 v6, 2L h20.
which Ignition system do you have ,there are 3 class ignitions.
1 (dizzy and 6 wires) coil pack 3 coils inside or (2) 1 pack and (3)and then 6 cops ,like mY h25
if dizzy engine (distributor) then rotor direction and proper firing order, is key (and timing)
ONE coil pack engine (3 inside), then the pairs most be wired correctly.
1: dizzy? (all can be wrong, all but direction )
2: DIS, coil pack 1. fixed firing order by coil pack routing. + ecu hard logic.
3: DIS, cops. (new cars) fixed firing order by harness routing,+ ecu logic.
DIS = distributor-less ignition system.
my h25 has cam sensor behind left cam shaft ,that must be timed. (yours have this?) called CMP.
on single coil pack engine DIS , taking off one spark wire,e, kills 2 cylinders.
it's a spark issue, if that is cured engine will run on test fuel.
did the new engine get a pre- commissioning compression test?
im on vacation and don't have my h20 books.
IIRC it is a single pack system.
RE: Hard start - Lutzz - 01-14-2015
I think it's DIS. cops (coil over plugs)
And yes its got a cam sensor behind left cam shaft. Saw the mecano fidling with it and there was changes to the revs. (Again that was when a spark plug was removed).
Nope! there was no compression test done after the rebuild. But it was done before the rebuild though.
Like I said it wont start at all when all plugs are in place so I'm not able to test with taking off 1 spark wire.
Not so sure about the meaning of IIRC though. I'm no mecano tho. lol. Enjoy your vacations first I guess, but thank you for your prompt response. cheers.
Could you please elaborate further on spark issue. Is it a simple remedy or something bigger or should I be more worried?
RE: Hard start - fixkick - 01-14-2015
sorry ,iirc, if i remember correctly slang. sorry for long post but ENGINE building is not simple, x10 that any suzuki..
so you have 6 COP coils ?
when you saying, Im removing plugs, do you mean
1:pull the COP off the sparkplug (boot coil an off)
2: both COP coil then spark plug unscrewed from head.
3:or removing the cop primary side connector? only/?
?
id really start with compression, after all , it takes a good engine to run. and is a validation of all work.
after all, if the cams are timed wrong, all this advanced work all, wasted. (DONE WIDE OPEN THROTTLE!)
BTW: by the way, the car has DLC connector, that has a timing freeze pins, insert a jumper to set static timing, at the CMP sensor.
suzuki name for this pin is "test switch terminal
http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/CAL-car-diag2.gif
on some its pin5 jumped to pin 4; HAS A rubber cap , and 6 pins. ( some books show D to E jump but D=4 so...) pin 4 is ground.
near battery or head light shell rear(right head)
my guess, is the plugs start on not rule is a factor of:
battery not charged, and removing spark plug , increase rum
that and sparked timed wrong,
and or cam timed wrong.
or all 3:
spark can be timed ,just cranking, with any timing light. dead engine.
thinks to check
spark at all 6 coils.
compression
see static timing to 5 deg. BTDC.
REMOVE the freeze and see timing bounce from 11 to 15 degrees BTDC running (this is the ECU doing that, and is 100% normal)
we dont have H20s here but , the h25 on up at about 2003? the freeze plug was deleted, here, and only a suzuki scan tool can do this.
but yours does have the old way of setting static, timing, OBD1,
static can be set, not running, with a timing light, at 5 Degr. TDC
some H engines, have no marks, but just one, mark, at 0 degrees
in this case ,you must use a dial back timing light, to hit 5 (ccw on pully, counter clock wise)
this facts are very hard to find, but i collect them, suzuki are very rare here. and h20 not 1.
the ecu controls spark at all times, perfectly, and with huge spark tables in the ECU. based on load and rpm,or at idle.
but the cam must be timed correctly and 170 psi compression,or more.
one more thing if the cam is set wrong, cam, the spark can happen way too advanced, so far that the engine wants to start
backwards, this is one more reason for why it starts, with spark plugs removed, less cylinders, less back fire.
the cam is set wrong, has a notch at cam end, that is not adjustable
but the CMP sensor, is adjustable, but is very limited, so if cam is wrong timed, you will never ever get static time 5 BtdC.
EVER.
my brother in law, set his cams wrong, then hacked the CMP to get timing right, (cut the slots) then a week later, this interference engine
blew up. (it was that close, that when fully hot, the valves hit the pistons.)
cam timing must be right, first. then hand turned for checks
that nothing hits, then compression tests
and last set static timing, before ever running any interference engine. or boom. the LAW OF DOHC, , IS What i call this rule.
if the compression is low, x 6, the cam IS TIMED wrong, stop, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars, (monopoly game)
cheers.
THE ENGINE IS interference.
are you 100% sure the cams are timed perfect.
after all if the intake valves are bent, it might like , sparks out. see why?
we check cam time 3 times. 100%; hard as a nut, Im sure its right ,no ifs, ands buts,or questions.
then i hand turn the engine, 3 times 720 degrees.
no hiiting? felt
then i do a compression test wide open throttle all spark plugs out. it must be x6 over 170psi.
mine does 190. (psi is based on compression ratios which is high)
never start any DOCH ENGINE ,EVER, (fiddled) until sure cam is perfect. or you will wreck it.
some SOHC too are like this, but rare.
rule of DOHC, seen here, is real.
h20
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/index.html#V6
i try to cover it, I have the FSM at home but not here.
I also know some imported chains (from china dirt cheap)
are marked wrong,,not marked at all.
and have metal quality of cheese. "soft trash"
good chains are clearly marked and last over 200k miles.
same with guides, if guide fails, the chain fails with it.
so...
RE: Hard start - Lutzz - 01-15-2015
Thank you @http://www.fixkick.com/ for the reply. Very informative.
Yes I have 6 cop coils...and yep my mechanic literally removes both the cop coil then unscrewed the spark plug from head - engine starts no problem. So it's like starting an engine without a plug. You can imagine the noise from that, when engine was started - loud.
Odo reads 211K's.
Compression test was done - ok.
Spark on all plugs - ok
Will surely see to the static timing.
We used the original chain prior to engine build.
So I think we can try the rest. Will get back in due course.
Much appreciated.
Lutzz.
RE: Hard start - fixkick - 01-15-2015
compression over 170 ?
my 1929 car is 100psi
lawn mower 100psi
my 68 vw bug ,is 100
but my v6 is 200 180 or above warm and for sure over 170 cold, this is a high compression engine and needs to be good.
only real numbers matter, my grandpa is happy at 100. but he never saw one of these High Flut'n ,new fangled engines.
the compression passing spec, tells me 2 things,cam timed right, and valves not bent. at least.
the engine will run on test, fuel with the gas tank missing, sure will.
and will run for 3 seconds for each spray of test fuel
but the spark needs to be set right. now way early not 30 degr, before ted. Btdc.
why engine runs with one spark plug missing, is at loss to me.
so is vacuum steady, at 19 inchs, running? (spark out IT RUNS) , SURE WILL BE loud but only for air blasting there.,
if exhaust exits that spark plug hole, your cam is timed all wrong.
you said loud but in what way? the air blast from induction attempting to compress air fuel and leaking or, what?
remove the fuel pump relay , and crank using test fuel
watch scott do his magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064Ilsz8Fzg&NR=1&feature=fvwp
the 6 cops, must be connected to the correct low voltage connector
the static time is 5 degr, BTDC .
the compression on all 6, beats 170 psi
the engine runs on test fuel,
the CEL lamp (dash cluster) GLOWS, KEY ON , if not fuse blow, or ECU DEATH.
the Cel blinks code 12, with diagnostic jumper inserted , MUST.
the CEL keeps blinking 12s, cranked for 5 seconds, release key and blinks 12, not 41,,42, or or other codes. ( THE ECU TALKS,,LISTEN)
vacuum of 5 inches Hg cranked., if not, cam TIMED wrong, or cat melted or some insane intake air leak
vacuum goes to near 20 inches HG, idling, if it runs.
i can not fathom the spark out deal. very odd that
timing wrong, cam and spark.
is the spark out rule works on any of 6 plugs? tedious test that.
if just one cyclinder, does that, then has valve action or leakage issues.
say and intake valve was burned causing huge loss of intake vacuum, making others fail. so you pull the spark and helps intake vacuum.
you do know how add spark wire to cop to spark top ,so the timing light works right, correct?
and extention wire.
if compression is 170 psi +
and spark realLy is good X6, it must start on test fuel. ONE BAD COP?
there are other reasons to fail, (flat cam) EGr STUCK OPEN, MELTED CAT
ITS REALLY FLOODING?
IF Flooding, pull the, fuel pump relay, and run on test fuel only. this proves engine and spark are good,
spark wet in fuel is flooding
cause by bad spark, bad timing, or too high fuel pressure,leaking injectors,etc,
pull the fuel pump relay and start there), (less is more, in many cases, ) might be 3 probems. so, 1 step at a time ,finds them.
RE: Hard start - fixkick - 01-15-2015
if timed ok, no risk of bending valves
the compression test must be done.
1battery chaarged.
2: all spark plugs out. (cops out too, sure)
3:throttle blocked open, wot.
4:crank it, until the needle peaks, write it down the PSI.
this proves engine is ok, and cam is timed.
no enigine runs with bad compression, it will be dead, misfire or run like a dog.
the ECU is tuned for good engines, not 50psi engines.
the spark must happen at the correct static time, or the ECU will mess up. the ECU ASSUMES static is correct and advances from there.
if you lie to the ECU, it will mess up..
i hope you dont bend your valves.