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+--- Thread: EGR stall test question (/thread-egr-stall-test-question)
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-20-2014
sorry , plumber talk a bib is s water valve on side of home. water bib valve.
i made a 16+ tests section for using no tools, soon, in 15m or less.
you think like me, to do it right , do it your self.
yes, just recanting the 12k good.
alum is ok, only lye or oven cleaner kills alum. or acids.
some like purple power degreaser will clause slight discoloration, i use it on large , alum, oven vents, it works great, but colors it odd.
ill send a link soon,
better list is here.
http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-Gen2a.html#Notools
no tools, but some hose. laying about..
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-20-2014
Ok. More results. ECU did energized and closed vSV when car started.. I did it in reverse order but it porved ECU energized it and close it. Then took connector oof and I could blow air thru VSV nipples. I then used TB vacuum port and ran a hose to P nipple and car rpm went down and shook a little like when doing EGR main test with hand (4 ports from hell in action!!). I then energized the VSV again with the connector and it closed it again, and then I blew air and it went out C port (filter).
So we deduct:
A-ECU is closing VSV when engine on
B-Passages are not blocked at VSV
C-Mod valve is also working as rpms went down when using TB vacuum port to P nipple thru the disconnected VSV passages
One doubt only. I measured the volts at the white/light green connector but never got the 12volts, but connected it did close the VSV. To make sure, red probe at connector black probe at engine and what range setting at DMM?
So all it needs is cleaning those damn 4 tiny holes at the Mani!!
Will let you know results. Good night!!
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-20-2014
very good. reverse order is great,
yes, the white-lt/grn wire, only goes to 12vdc moving. the ecu holds that wire at ground at all times , then when the VSS sensor shows greater than 0 RPM (hot) the ECU releases this wire.
that is it opens this wire (a transistor Q111 actually turns off)
your system works , you bypassed only the VSV (which you proved is good by hand) and the Porter vacuum direct drive mode, works , effectly making it a 1993 car.
when you gun the engine , 1993 mod (ported TB nipple to P nipple, the egr flexs, as gun the throttle?
i concur, just ports, the whole system seems be ok, 1993, mode , and im sure q111 is ok.
EGRT not packed in carbon
quad ports of hell , clean.
and it would pass smog. i bet (cat , nox features, good)
it is worth having, imo , only to keep the valves running cool. and gets fractional better mpg doing that (due to reduced pumping losses)
i like your test, Im adding it now.
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-20-2014
That was the only test I forgot: Gunning the engine to see if it pulled EGR main with the bypass hose to P nipple. Actually Kick is 94, but maybe 93 is the same system?
I see the light at the end of the manifold runners, but it is a faint ray of light!! Hahaha, hopefully saturday morning it will shine brighter!!
Javier
Fixkick,
The funny thing is that this car has been passing smog checks every year. Can you guess why after the clean-up/semi tune-up i did, now I get the code 51?
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-21-2014
the ported vacuuum on the top of the throttle body should be dead hot idle. is yours.
the ecu cuts the EGR 2 ways, one with ported vacuum and the VSV, the VSV drops vacuum at wide open throttle, something then ported vacuum can not do.
i think this is how it works.
no, im calling your test a 1993 test, you make it work like a zero MPH 1993 car. your parked tires on ground and the EGR is live, gunned. see?
you test is great. and very simple and i just added to my page, egr gen2a.html
keep in mind a new or really GOOD strong CAT can in fact hide a horridly running engine, this is its 2nd job. passing smog, means very little in fact.
you car has 3 way cat, one of the 3 ways it , the EATS all NOX it can get. way.
see?
if you want the cat to last long, (they are like $1500 at suzuki) a good running engine does that,
the less crap you send to the cat , the longer it lives. (crap, = NOX, HC, and CO)
im pretty sure the code 51s never lie, (sensor no packed in carbon , for sure)
low flow or no flow. is code 51.
the flow needs to be full. so the CAT can last for ever.
the stock cat is way stronger than new cats.
they found a way to give you less, (magic rare earth materials) and still pass the 8 year rule. (dirt dogs they are) The stock CAT is a very high quality product.
check my words here
http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-Gen2a.html#Notools
are you saying the TB nipple has vacuum , at hot idle>?
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-21-2014
Got it, but why a code 51 only after cleaning the manifolds and passages (well not to well, 4 ports from hell) and all the crap that I could get my hands on?
(08-21-2014, 12:34 AM)fixkick Wrote: the ported vacuuum on the top of the throttle body should be dead hot idle. is yours.
Can you post a picture of this nipple? maybe I'm using a wrong one?
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-21-2014
only after....
well the only way 51s can come alive by magic is exiting LIMPHOME. (or the thermostat starts working for first time) (or ecu is in LOST mode, ask)
in limp home (suzuki failsafe) or backup mode, there are no 51 checks...
in limphome, the ECU knows the engine is rich as a pig (it did that) and knows rich is cold combustion, and no NOX.
but more important, failsafe means OUT of control EFI so the finer points or smog, are NOT possible. the CAT then determines all smog at that point.
keep in mind, an out of control EFI can go 2 ways, lean and burn up valves, or rich, and save them. and rich CUTS the most nasty pollution of them all NOX. (acid rain, etc,etc)
the whole thing is designed to stop NOX, end to end, even when Broken.
sure
to right of finger
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_Show/HTML/image_28.html
at top here
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_Show/HTML/image_21.html
at bottom here
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_Show/HTML/image_22.html
note in last view, no hole seen in bore, on plenum side, its ported vacuum.
the line is dead, to you raise the throttle
this is so (i think) the engine can not die with VSV stuck open.
and the idle , not idle and WOT , no EGR logic rules.
keep in mine this ecu is near brick stupid by today's standard.
it really is.
and back when, it can get lost. (sure can and guess what?, no DTC for lost, is that dumb or what?)
if the ecu don't know why, it can not control fuel, it's lost. this is a state to be in. (it also can not detect a weak maf, only dead ones)
eg: gross lean. or fuel pressure stuck at 60psi. FPreg dead. jammed.
the ECU only knows to mix fuel by mAF and to run closed loop. Hot. if closed loop fails the MAF plus all illegal air leaks wins the day. (or not)
there is no book, or text on the ECu disclosing allways, the 51 monitor can be suspended, but it sure will and does.
the best source is a 1995 real suzuki FSM, it does pretty good.
keep in mind, if new cars are near AI in the ECU world, (they are not) then this is the anti-thesis to that. Brick dumb, no worse.
using a real scan tool , solves all this. mostly
eg:
Omg, no closed loop at hot idle , oh my a crack near the (exh) front 02,(no rear on 95) makes 02 lie like dog.
Hark, the maf is weak,
or, the o2 is stuck lean.
or , why is the ETC reading, 140f hot. oops.
or , why is the LTFT stuck at +40 , weak maf, or air leaks. (a huge long track, maf to head.)
51s is last. dead last. and then idle controls behind that...
btw on the 1996 it suspends many tests, due to gross failures . of other tests.
o2 fails, cut the 420 test. of cat, on mine.
its smarter, it knows, the cat can not be tested with a bad front sensors. no way; no how.
the suspension rules are the most , poorly documented features of all ECU made.
far better, is to take stock off all readings
and correct the basics and then work out to the more complex.
this always works..
my master (my mentor) says.
no that is wrong.
he has 5 gas system, ($20000 bucks on a cart)
and he starts at the tail end of the exhaust pipe and works forward, to the cause. he is correct. 100% but he is not DIY. (he is looking at 02 like blood hound)
these test are all on motor.com. the book or mag.
http://www.motor.com/articles.asp
whats cool the old issues are online. these guys RULE !
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-21-2014
Ok, then I was using wrong port. With this one I do have to raise throttle and it will pull EGR main main thru bypass hose to P nipple. Thanks!!
Question, now that you sent the picture, when I was installing the TB I did notice that this hole (red arrow pointing to)
got covered by the gasket. If this is so, I mean is this correct? Where does it gets vacuum from, if covered. (This is just aside from main topic, just curious)
Although I was using this port, where blue arrow points
to do the test last night as this had vacuum all the time (right?) and pulled EGR main thru disconnected VSV at P nipple.
Now I see that if I gunned engine it would not have mattered.
Ok, I'll then use this port tonight and let you know.
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-21-2014
thats ok,, my page shows using plenum vacuum as , as (hand tool) vacuum pump. i can use that to test all points, end to end .
like one uses a battery to test electric parts.
the hole, is common practice on all carbs and TB, that hole allows them to do the drillings, then when done too cheap to use a welch plug to block the cross drill point. they use a gasket
take the top off most carbs and wow. all those tricks there, some with welsh plugs or lead shot, or gasket tricks
ported vacuum is tricky, take the very tricky way vacuum advance works on a carb sammy
there can be 2 vacuum ports. that stage from vacuum retard to advance.
in this case the , egr port is just a tiny hole in the , air cleaner side, (no vacuum , nearly)
the port is near the butterly. if you look close, or could be covered in carbon.
or plugged
what i do is blow in the hole. see where the air comes out, and do block with your finger that rear hole in the gasket flange or the cross drilling leaks, hiding the truth
usually there are 2 or 3 drillings, in this case the nibble needs no drilling its cast in place
then the rear drilling, then the cross drill to more the EGR precision, port. they cross and bingo, its formed.
i no longer have access to an xray machine, but this can help
that is the EVAP nipple it is a hard vacuum there, infact both are.
that is correct, not matter, as it plenum vacuum
for sure i check both nipples for hard vacuum, in 1min flat.
that plenum as it 19inches at idle., vacuum the egr pulls in 100% at 8" HG.
sure , i liked your idea of the 1993 test, (89 to 1993 to more accurate)
its cool its fast and gets answers fast , lots of elimination, remove in 1min.
but you will need to gun the throttle to get the MOD to go full on, not for the ported rule, bypassed 1993 test.
the mode open more, for huge #4 exhaust pulses....
the mod really is and ENGINE LOAD measuring device, today the ECU calculate this in math, making mods, silly .
it uses the exh bark intensity to open the EGR main, the correct amount
here is the official graph by suz.
![[Image: egr-gas-profile.JPG]](http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/egr-gas-profile.JPG)
some ported vacuums are a slot in the bore, at fly edge, like my goofy vw bug has.
if you think this port is ticky try my bug carb.
close in view....
![[Image: 721745.jpg]](http://www.no-agua.net/At_Wits_End/Carbs-Suck/carb-photo-pit/Bocar%2034P/images/721745.jpg)
or this great cut away showing all drillings,
very good.
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k378/LRCXed/CARB%20STUFF/DSC_0590.jpg
btw, im not saying i know the ported path in this body, i never tried to trace it but could.
use blow air, and feel , or use colored water injected.
but if you find this lil nugget of truth, would love a photo. (ill put it on the page)
oops i think id did this in 2009
looking now, in old photos.
i found it but not the , index
ah here it is under bruce... photo #8 and index key below that.
http://www.fixkick.com/EGR-horror2.html
its HOLE #4 , and right where expected.
i did trace them, but long forgot, then bruces photos pop in to my head. bingo. the ported vacuum.
naturally hole 1 is not there in 1992 to 1995.4 , 1999.5 has mono port , 1
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-21-2014
Super duper info sir. Can not wait to get working on her. I'll take pics as I do the whole thing.
Thanks very much.