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+--- Thread: Timing question (/thread-timing-question)
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-06-2017
or find a new cam cog wheel spare, not yours.
weld key slot over. in spare wheel, hub.
get new key slot re-machined to fit new timing.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-06-2017
or 2 head gaskets.
hope its enough.
RE: Timing question - Swiftdoog - 02-07-2017
GOOD NEWS, I was able to time correctly the car... again... and found out a lot of stuff...
Like, "do not over tension a timin belt" for example or the timing will never be spot on.
Also, "if your vacuum pot tends to stick, it will keep the static timing advanced and the start will be always difficult".
And my timing is (so far):
4º no vacuum.
10º with vacuum.
Hope this helps everyone, after lunch I will be doing a test drive to see how it behaves.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
(02-07-2017, 01:48 AM)Swiftdoog Wrote: GOOD NEWS, I was able to time correctly the car... again... and found out a lot of stuff...
Like, "do not over tension a timin belt" for example or the timing will never be spot on. the books all cover this,see my page?????
it tells you 2 things that tiny spring there see that???? it is the only thing that sets tension EVER and only during he install and NEVER runningmy page can read in spanish using google live page translate.right>???
step 2, you turn engine 2 times CW let spring set tension. done... lock the tension roller lock stud now, ends, all this.
LOOK now,
the facing belt ,right side of belt is tight locked in to the coGS, (head not shaVED 4 timeS ,IT CAN NEVER COG LOCK AND HOLD TIME CAM )
then 2 turns, and lock the idler. (right side of belt ,has no true slack sure can bend easy pushed with finger.)
that is all there is to it,and if you read those instructions, . after its installed it, the belt is a loose fit
its never set TIGHt like any front of engine serpentine belt ever, like same at 100 ft./lbs (have jeep like that)
GOT LOST AT PHASE 2, STEP 14?
MY PAGE DOES NOT COVER GROSS HEAD SHAVES,SO....(WE DONT DO THAT HERE)
at step 18.
so now I try, adding new words....
here.
step 18b.
you look and cogs are timed right or now. there is no almost right, its at the 4 point marks or is not.(top andbottome)
if you tried to move cam or crank and right side of the belt (facing it)goes
slack that SIR is gross HEAD shaving ffailure.
there is no cure.besides my last post on 3 cures.
try to know,the tooth count on the right side is fixed number
if say you shave head, the tooth is now off 1/2 a tooth cog.so making timing IMPOSSIBLE(the belt is a fixed form, no variances allowed)
got the wrong belt, the 8v belt is good ,nor any old samurai belt onlya G16b fits, period.
Also, "if your vacuum pot tends to stick, it will keep the static timing advanced and the start will be always difficult".
ive no idea at all what POT is on any WEBER carb....its a carb. and rpm needs to be at 800.
And my timing is (so far):
4º no vacuum.(BTDC?) left of scale,not right)left side is before top dead center, but
10º with vacuum. (if 10deg or more cranked, starts will be hard or backwards)your weber will never get vacuum right here, its hopeless
Hope this helps everyone, after lunch I will be doing a test drive to see how it behaves.
id not think any one here runs 16v with webers. (lots of 8v samuria's sure) web does not support this engine with proper vacuum advance.
but the cam must be right first, spark is ALWAYS last, (runs off end of cam it does)
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
now how end this in future?
we dont do that here.
IF a head warps over say , 0015" then its oven heated to relax said warp
all head shops USA (aluminum) do that and then measure warp again. (may go to oven again... yes skills max here)
then shave it LAST, if at ALL max 1 to 2 thou max. in fact its what is called a clean up cut, to get max gasket seal. only
even less.
this is so you dont get where you are now.
and all heads the are warped and not OVEN relaxed fail.
all fail soon again, all do (the usa authority on heads, rebuiders pages and ASE.org , list this as top cause. of later failures
this is a prevention post ,not cure.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
wish how i could tell you
buy belt
get belt ,wrong belt in box. G16b on box.
stuff happens ,retail bs.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
the proof is easy (cogs both at tdc marks cam at 12pm.)
belt off
hold belt to cogs ,just held.there, so the right cogs match slots.
right side must be tight, now
if not, wrong belt..... dead wrong
back to store, new belt, box number carefully checks, is sealed box>?
try belt , if fails. head shaved grossly!!!!
do not use the wrong belt , buy a wrong belt , i can do that all day long,and not repeat. wrong every time
the correct belt is 103 tooth belt as seen here
GATES
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4550&cc=1271450&jsn=10404
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
$14 for a top brand, not expenisve
Dayco good too.
RE: Timing question - Swiftdoog - 02-07-2017
Just to correct myself, when I said 4º with no vacuum, I mean the second vacuum pot (remember my dizzy is dual advance and this pot pulls 6º more with vacuum, oh btw I found the dual advance canister I needed
forgo to tell you), and with that second pot connected it pulls 10º, it doesn´t affect cranking time since it only activates when the engine is already running, by the way, the crank is like lighting smooth now 
.Also, this vacuum advance has a screw that makes it adjustable, now I can see at 1500rpm a slower timing progression, like sitting at 12º, before it will jump to 20º (under normal circunstance could be right but in my case is too much, so I needed a slower progression timing curve).
And I would like to quote:
"...IF a head warps over say , 0015" then its oven heated to relax said warp
all head shops USA (aluminum) do that and then measure warp again. (may go to oven again... yes skills max here)
then shave it LAST, if at ALL max 1 to 2 thou max. in fact its what is called a clean up cut, to get max gasket seal. only..."
Dude... that´s way too advance for a third world country like this one, what you say is the correct way, but here they only shave and shave and shave
Gonna quote a picture of yours:
![[Image: 6a6348531200144.jpg]](http://thumbnails117.imagebam.com/53121/6a6348531200144.jpg)
You see that peak that the water pump has? I remembered milling it because the head (with the gasket on) would touch it, so you can guess how badly shaved it is
and you can see that peak is slightly above the head gasket line.And yes, the "suppossedly" correct belt is 103 tooth, apparently is the correct one, but also remember that I was over tensioning the belt because I was actually not following the instructions right.
So far I am still testing, retarted the timing 2º more just in case and so far I am at 2º no vac and 10º with vac at 700-800rpm, and at 2000rpm at least than 18º. Yep, that´s too little advance but is driveable. Some day I will get a new head... some day...
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-07-2017
ok,
you forget? any country on earth can order a rebuilt head from USA? (with only a tiny tiny shave, .001" or so, they will reject your head, for any CORE value, here state side, its consider just scrap aluminum. sorry.
so it not 3rd world, issue
it's cash only.
or down time?
All engines with a quench area in the piston to combustion chamber, is tuned for fast flame fronts and low ping
it works so good the G16 will not ping, ever. (needs no knock sensors with dynamic retard)
when its shaved, 2 things happen, that quench area is wrecked, and CR GOES TO HELL too.
The 3rd effect is spark timing tables (or distr/mech/vac) advance settings are now all useless, (so back off advance)_
the belt is cut for stock head, the service manual lists the max milling cut (shave) spec.
belt will cause the belt to be too long (cog pitch is fixed)
forcing the belt installer to run cam timing wrong. + 1 cog or -1cog.(like you)
fixes,
1:a rebuilt head (from real head maker, that follows the rules)
2: run 2 head gaskets
3: run custom advancing ,lots and lots of tuning, like all dyno tunes engines are done. (for same reasons)
4: upgrade to EFI and tune the spark tables, and ditch the mech, distrib, and vacuum magic.(or go MPI)
5: run a G16 variable cam gear. can help. off swift sites. http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/adoAAOSwIzNXPJ5b/s-l225.jpg
6: run AV gas, 100 octane fuel $$$$, or run more E85? And tune to that?
I wonder , with this SHAVE is the engine still free running? we check that with the clay trick. on top of the piston.
if the hand turned cam , crank a TDC 0, held there,
tune cam, hits?
no, we do the clay test,to be sure its not too close. exhaust stroke,
if the cam is such and the shave is extreme the piston might say get to near .001" of the valve.
so later, when engine fully hot and driving fast,it hits, all race engine makers do that test, a last step before final assembly. (no need stock engine)
if I saw gross shaving it be all over that in a heart beat, head in hand.
would..(and having no other choices.)
on other engines they have steal head gasket shaped, shims, to get CR where they want it
most real turbo mod.'ers do that, to have low CR to start that turbo. (so does Honda) its called the safe place,
the ECU has safe place to go, when BAD happens. (like LEAN happens underboost)
my point here,is they sell those shims.
problem is you are like the only 1 of 10 G16b racers... so parts hard to find. Its not a toyoto/nissan/Honda)
off the main head sight(see that thing about CAM bores?)
Aluminum heads can be straightened by countershimming the head on a heavy steel plate (place shims under either end of the head to offset the amount of distortion), clamping it down, then heating it in an oven to about 425° F for several hours, then letting it slow cool. The goal is to get the cam bores straight. Once they are in alignment, chances are the face of the head will be reasonably flat, too, and require minimal machining to refinish the surface.
Another method for straightening aluminum heads is to use a torch to head the top of the head, starting in the center and working towards the ends. The trick here is to keep the head temperature under 500° F to prevent softening the head too much.
here is a guy I think in LA. with wall to wall machine shops there. that can dewarp it with heat , saving the CAM bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyKN52HD6RU
some own forgot to tell him, hey fella both sides warp, cam bearings and all.
fun to watch , and LOL