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+--- Thread: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp (/thread-2-3-dohc-motor-correct-operating-temp)
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-01-2019
also lots of 2.0L J20 in stock, J18 sport, and runs perfectly, (might lack some power WOT but be hard to know that)
so we are talking 300 cc more. over j20.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - thebanjoman - 08-01-2019
(08-01-2019, 01:06 AM)fixkick Wrote: so far all we know is 1 fact (besides 500cc more displacements)
is the thermostat is bad or out of control.
that is just one fact that needs to be worked, but testing for lean sure.
scanning and logging data will prove that.
my scan tool connect so a real PC, and I can log TPS, ECT, IAT, RPM , load, MAF readings , LTFT. all at once and log over time. (and if CLosed loop fails in any way not normal)
if lean is a worry why not monitor CL and LTFT first. if the engine overheats in CL mode, it is NOT lean. not now not ever.
the O2 sensor is your KEY ELEMENT to prove that and it knows NOTHING ABOUT DISPLACEMENT OF ENGINE.
keep in mind too the engine, at idle uses same air flow 1.8 liter as 2.3 (a tad more for inefficiency yes)
so if overheats parked, that is not any firmware MAP, parked, its not enough air flow, if the stat is good. not near enough.
that is why i wanted to do parked, for that reasons and for the safety reason, if car can be diagnosed parked, this is safer for you.
sure if that is fixed first , then maybe pulling loads up a huge hill , only overheats engine, but we still need to fix parked first. as we all know if that is cured first you might just luck out on the worst case, after all too, is moving fast lots more free air flow there.
I got my new stant thermostat today, I tested it in a pan of water and it opens fully when water boiling. In the past I have just installed them and never had a problem. This is too important to just hope it works. I will try to get it installed this weekend.
In the meantime I need to spend some time getting to know my scan tool to log over time to get the details you've outlined.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-02-2019
hello: greatings.
I received your csv logs..
which column is closed loop, status (binary 0 or 1 or CL ,OL status)?
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - thebanjoman - 08-02-2019
(08-02-2019, 08:40 PM)fixkick Wrote: hello: greatings.
I received your csv logs..
which column is closed loop, status (binary 0 or 1 or CL ,OL status)?
looks like I somehow missed getting that logged. I'm still learning the app.
Let me research and see if I can get that explicitly logged. I had 'fuel status' on the screen as one of the display settings on the app
and it was showing 'closed loop' but I need to find out how to get that into the .csv file and take another trip.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-02-2019
OK LOOKING AT 2ND ZIP CVS
i Think engine attained closed loop at LTFT .78 to -7.0 Long term fuel trim at ECT 143.6F degrees
i see nothing odd(save way too hot). the fuel trim looks ok. shows
-2 to -6 range, all normal LTFT, even 0 and 0 seen for LTFT and STFT at line 235.5F ECT line. showing o2 is fully at Stoich, (perfect fuel mix this means)
so the 02 is not dead, the 02 is not showing lean , in fact the - minus sign means it is naturally a touch rich and -2 means removing -2 fuel to attain Stoich.
what would help is to hold speed steady at say 45mph for some time to see what happens with data.
get TPS to show steady (right foot) for at least 15seconds? at any moderate speeds, 25 to 45mph, 45 is sweet spot on most these cards max MPG. and is closed loop
with foot held steady for constant TPS reading. then
at the 2nd zip cvs is see tps held many times (shortly) with readings near steady and LTFT + STFT is near -4 or -5, (subtracting fuel) each time and normal.
if engine was LEAN the trim goes way Positive. way beyond +5. and yours never once did.
the key failure here , is the THERMOSTAT is out of control, fully. it never locks up at 180f ever.
this means the RAD is not doing its job (why remains)
at 239F hot, ect
tps 0
speed 0
850 rpm
trim is near -6 (rich) that means naturally rich and the 02 corrected it to perfect . the ECU read the 02 and trims injection by that much , negative. 6
if if wrong injectors or wrong fuel pressure was all wrong the 02 will not lie to you, or it, nor fueltrim (trends)
the O2 is key here as is closed loop status, logging. so I can see the trim only at CL = true, close loop true, and happens with a steady foot only.
when you move the right foot down the CL goes FALSE, and the MAF controls injections. (and fuel tables use it to inject , and modulate the injectors)
using wrong injectors for right ECU, might also cause problems. ( the MAPS are tuned for only 1.8L injectors ) this can be and issue, not saying it is now.
ok now we have moving data.... very good. that.
why does the RAD fail moving fast.
answer wrong RAD. or AC condenser packed in bugs, or fan on condenser dead?
IS AC off during test data?
at 70mph i see ECT at 200F.
the RAD is not working there. at that very fast speed.
what is ambient temperatures at test time? assume low altitudes, not Denver CO. high. (thin air ,needs bigger rad or faster fans there)
and 232F at 33mph., the rad is not working or it can not get enough air or is too small.
the lean theory is not it, IMO.
the normal RAD (area good) would work and be overkill, even at DENVER
and would allow the THERMOSTAT to regulate at steady constant temperature , and not lose control once it hit, 180F.
that is not happening on this car, only why , remains....
repeat test with all 3 fans screaming?
all 3? (AC off) so means fan 3 is hot wired? to do that? it is your 3rd path to more air flow.
if the AC is non functional, ? dead from engine swap? remove the condenser so RAD gets more air? (snatching at straws , not knowing status of AC)
that is my review of CSV , so far.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-02-2019
now some idea's about the 1.8 liter ,and 2.3L , Firmware factory MAP tables,(3D they are) (fuel map over load/rpm) injection maps.
the PCM on your car has j18 map tables, (map for short)
and will be lean WOT for this engine, (in theory)
The truth is , with the injectors lean, at idle and at CLosed loop cruising, right foot steady, The ECU fuel trim will try its best to make the 02 happy, called STOICH.
then...
what can happens next is at WOT, wide open throttle, the map is lean , but the MAF will not lie. the MAF never lies, but in truth the MAF is data (and calc. load) indexed into the MAP tables.
and injections happen at the MAP table rates, not in closed loop. The tables also are 2, one for open loop and one for closed, and trim added. (and one more for cold engine)
all comments, hot engine and close or open loop.
if it is lean you'd feel it. power falls off lean, big time, , normally at WOT or hard acceleration the CL goes false , and engine goes rich for full power, on all cars. (NA, gasoline)
if not and lean power falls off FAST. the engine feels lack luster, and weak,
if the engine feels very responsive it is not lean with fast right foot.
I bet it runs good, right?
also lean would cause PINGING, and that is super bad, if that happens, but the EGR may hide that, as it normally does.
some of these 2.3 liter engines have PING sensor (detonation microphone ) and this retards spark to end/prevent ping, so that is now missing .
if fact it can hear early ping no human can hear and ends it before you do... all by magic on newer cars.
this trick is done to make higher compression engines not PING. (j23 ECU)
and pinging engine overheats, and in fact helps to make it worse. PINGING happens at max combustion temps. so... is complex here.
just something to think about, not saying this is a problem here. ok?
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - thebanjoman - 08-02-2019
(08-02-2019, 09:04 PM)thebanjoman Wrote:(08-02-2019, 08:40 PM)fixkick Wrote: hello: greatings.
I received your csv logs..
which column is closed loop, status (binary 0 or 1 or CL ,OL status)?
looks like I somehow missed getting that logged. I'm still learning the app.
Let me research and see if I can get that explicitly logged. I had 'fuel status' on the screen as one of the display settings on the app
and it was showing 'closed loop' but I need to find out how to get that into the .csv file and take another trip.
From what I am reading I have to add a 'custom pid' to just track loop status in logging details. Once I figure that out I will add it and gather more data.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - thebanjoman - 08-03-2019
(08-02-2019, 10:45 PM)thebanjoman Wrote:(08-02-2019, 09:04 PM)thebanjoman Wrote:From what I am reading I have to add a 'custom pid' to just track loop status in logging details. Once I figure that out I will add it and gather more data.(08-02-2019, 08:40 PM)fixkick Wrote: hello: greatings.
I received your csv logs..
which column is closed loop, status (binary 0 or 1 or CL ,OL status)?
looks like I somehow missed getting that logged. I'm still learning the app.
Let me research and see if I can get that explicitly logged. I had 'fuel status' on the screen as one of the display settings on the app
and it was showing 'closed loop' but I need to find out how to get that into the .csv file and take another trip.
https://torque-bhp.com/forums/?wpforumaction=viewtopic&t=4746.0
Fuels Status is a bitmap within the 1st Byte (“A”) returned from PID 03, Mode 01. Valid returned values are
1 – open loop (cold engine)
2 – closed loop
4 – open (deceleration)
8 – open loop (system failure)
16 – closed loop (partial fault in system)
So I have this being logged now. Let me make another trip to see if it tracks this data.
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-03-2019
yes fuel status , is very useful... mode 4 is cut fuel mode.
#2 is at idle or light steady cruise. closed loop
but I thank you RAD has issues. the engine overheats at 70mph.
this is bad.
or water pump belt slips? or air in the system. loop
RE: 2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp - fixkick - 08-03-2019
LAST CVS LOOKS GOOD, AT KEY OFF 0RPM IS SEE THE BLOCK heat soaked up to 255F , that is super hot. Hot soak temp.
the EFI runs in code 2 , full time expected, so the 02 is happy at , mid point, of its range. all good... no lean that.
I seen no problems in the data just very hot ECT sensor. and the OBD voltage glitches to 9v, line 259 /262 there very odd, beside key off at line 426.
at 39.2 load on engine looks perfect, but hot.