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+--- Thread: Timing question (/thread-timing-question)
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 07-23-2016
one comment i missed
was
"pinged at 0 degrees too"
driving or parked?, and at what RPM if it pinged?, and what load, if any?? my guess is driving up a hill, but in what gear, 1,2,3.
ah you mean, the static time is 0degrees. but what was the timing, running, ? when it pinged
and engine pings when EGR is defeated
CR is too high
wrong fuel. for that CR
and too far advanced.
to solve ping , i need timing light data.
on our cars, we ask the ECU and it tell me. (ecu says, x, and I add z= static, for total time)
but not on carb cars, it takes hard work.
static time is just a small part of total spark advance. (under fast rpm can be 5 degrees of total of 50) so is only 1/10 the total.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 07-23-2016
one guy here had ping
and CR was off the roof
compression at 230psi or more.. radical head milling, or another guy wrong head, or wrong piston(tops) .
I told him to run diesel, LOL
RE: Timing question - Swiftdoog - 07-23-2016
Yeah,
that´s the price I pay for living here, these days I´ve seen many cars getting converted to carbureted because the lack of parts and many parts stores closing. Due to bad politics, they blame the rest of the world instead of blaming their bad decisions... Anyways, I´m off to hunt that part.
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 07-23-2016
I see one maker of ECU (after market)
that is called the NO fuel ECU, or spark only ECU.
its just that, a black box, you tune, to get spark timing perfect. (+ map + ckp sensor and TPS)
exactly like the 3d curves above post. here it is , shows you the complexity.
"ignition only ECU."
his page 14 map is just default map, and useless (well it runs), for any engine, it must be tuned to what your engine needs and your carb AFR. (dyno time is expensive.)
I do know a guy that uses a home made accelerator. (crude HP gage really) and tunes spark at all loads, and RPM form max accel.
one can do , 3 points on a line and then interpolate , them for a base line, and then do more. for more accuracy.
I have a program for my mega-squirt ECu that measures, RPM accelerations ! Rates , rates fast are more HP, and I tune for that, offroad, away for cars and trees.....
its DIY program that turns the car in to a DYNO, but with due care, , 2 persons is best, one to drive , one to tune.
http://www.canems.co.uk/pdf/ignition_manual.pdf
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 07-23-2016
(07-23-2016, 12:35 AM)fixkick Wrote: I see one maker of ECU (after market)
that is called the NO fuel ECU, or spark only ECU.
its just that, a black box, you tune, to get spark timing perfect. (+ map + ckp sensor and TPS)
exactly like the 3d curves above post. here it is , shows you the complexity.
"ignition only ECU."
his page 14 map is just default map, and useless (well it runs), for any engine, it must be tuned to what your engine needs and your carb AFR. (dyno time is expensive.)
I do know a guy that uses a home made accelerator. (crude HP gage really) and tunes spark at all loads, and RPM form max accel.
one can do , 3 points on a line and then interpolate , them for a base line, and then do more. for more accuracy.
I have a program for my mega-squirt ECu that measures, RPM accelerations ! Rates , rates fast are more HP, and I tune for that, offroad, away for cars and trees.....
its DIY program that turns the car in to a DYNO, but with due care, , 2 persons is best, one to drive , one to tune.
http://www.canems.co.uk/pdf/ignition_manual.pdf
PS
im sure this is no direct useful solution to your problem ($$$$$)
but learning how spark really works, is a solution, or can save you from trying the impossible..? (seems this is the case to me)
the real problem is there is no full Suzuki spec on this distributor at all (the rpm curve and the Vacuum curves are missing)
that means you cant' make something work close,
the rock and a hard place.
this is.
all the best there in SA>.. good luck to you and your countymen...
RE: Timing question - Swiftdoog - 02-06-2017
Me again, at last I was able to source a timing cover and do my timing. 6º on the initial, 12º on the vacuum (as the manual stated, the double canister advance does pull 12º on idle, so that will be manifold vacuum plus ported vacuum).
Done that, and guess what?... it pinged... but at 3000rpm...
But, to all this I have one small question, something that I totally forgot to add to the very beginning, and my lovely wife just reminded me.
Since my father-in-law gave us the car (at those time I actually knew very little about engines), the engine was overhauled and the head shaved, later on a trip I suffered an overheat and the head probably was shaved again, and after a bus crashed into me (going in reverse with no brakes, something awfull, yet the car was fixable) and because of that the engine burned the head gasket (since the impact got close to the engine, it actually shifted an engine mount back a few inches, I foolishly thought that the engine was fine. it started and ran without trouble during 6 months and suddenly one day the idle went rough and there was water on 2 and 3 :S , the head took damage somehow and had to shave the head again).
https://goo.gl/photos/ycSCcDR6ZDZb4WdPA (is SFW, but is not pretty, it hurts everytime I see it).
https://goo.gl/photos/CdrH16JBNLbxaWSm6
https://goo.gl/photos/KF5pJUXk16X2rPyg8 (you can see how the radiator (on the left corner) touched the head, got bent badly but the engine looked fine, no cracks of anything weird.
But that was a two years ago already, so far running good but with bad timing
Knowing this now... could it be that in all this years, due to all the shaving/milling of the head, could it be that the compression ratio changed so much that the stock timing won´t work at all?
Yes, I double checked the timing and I am about to do it again, plus the marks linning up and the tensioner is not like 150% extended, but it is somewhat, not like the opposite side of the belt touching the other side, there is still plenty of room.
I was able to do a trip without any vacuum advance and at 6º initial and everything was fine, tried to use manifold vacuum with no luck. Also, there is one detail I just remembered, the engine most of the time is hard to start when hot, I mean like it is fighting the starter that tries to roll back, I have seen the engine while starting and sometimes (most of the time while sometimes starts right up) I can catch the cam going backwards after my wife let the key off, plus there have been times when I shut off and there is kinda an engine run on but backwards
but that happens rarely like once every 2 or 3 months.
RE: Timing question - Swiftdoog - 02-06-2017
you gonna be mad...I was advanced, actually 1/4 off a thooth advanced, see attached drawings.
This is what I had, everytime I tensioned the belt, the cam would 6º to the back. Did some math and apparently is it 6º, but don´t is advanced or retarded, but by the pinging on "supposedly stock conditions I am gonna guess I was 6º advanced.
This is what I did, I hope that it was the right thing to do, since now (oddly enough) the car starts quite quickly and not fighting the starter, on stock settings.
But... there is always a but...
If I suddenly push the throttle, like kicking it, it makes a sounds, like way overadvanced sound. But if I push gently or normally it doesn´t make it. I applied Drive and pushed the gas normally and no pinging, but that sound it made worried me a bit.
It is clear that I don´t have stock conditions anymore on the engine. I know I should just ditch that head and get another, but right now I have to survive with this one.
The question is, what I did was right? or should I go back to where I was and compensate? but then how?
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-06-2017
yes, 3 + shaves the CR , compression ratio crazy high. and the quench area now distorted
sure it will ping
so back off the spark base timing. (keep in mind ,now engine is custom,so all timing specs are null and void (your invention)
that is the only cure other that using 2 head gaskets.
or 3rd cured running 100 octane AV-gas (aviation)
very glad to see your progress, are ok!
. that weber will never do ported vacuum advance correctly , i bet, its very complex.
your compression gage readings would read way to high too.
that ping is 3 way caused
shaves (my guess 15 to 30 thou cuts, total)
Egr dead
vacuum advance goon crazy from web wrong carb. .
this engine stock does not ping, easy, due to special chamber and quench areas there.
cheers !
im in Peru now, on beach ,chilln
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-06-2017
the fighting the starter is spark way to far advanced,
engine will try to start backwards
like old Harleys, get on, ready to kick start it, and forget to retard spark lever. and get thrown over handle bars, humbling....
RE: Timing question - fixkick - 02-06-2017
love that odd belt deal,fun challenge
so it will not land the cog belt ribs at zero
you are saying
first off there are 3 belts. or more. G13, G16a , G16b not the same.
the timing marks are clear below links
the bottom cog has 1 more mark and see the white painted arrow above crank on block, this can't change or be off,
the top cog, cam wheel has wrong false marks, seen below.
the head has inside hidden pins called ferrules , if missing head cants.(twits)
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html
now notice head does not sit over crank center line. but to right facing it.
this feature lowers the engine to fit, low hoods like swifts.
so if head is milled too much or shaved. too much
the head moves to the right, (facing engine)
this causes the cam to retard. because the belt is now too long. and or cogs miss.align
it must be shaved horrible
the easy fix is a racing cam cog, adjustable for G16a. i wonder if still made, Ill look.