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+--- Thread: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" (/thread-1991-3spd-auto-help)
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - Michtrackerproject - 04-22-2016
(04-22-2016, 12:24 AM)fixkick Wrote: EPC harness review. (seems just the trans harness 57 matters.) there are no pages , that shows, 3AT/4AT wiring differences.
all things equal (doorcount,2wd/4wd/AT/year/8v/16v)
the harness id's and factors below. (only usa, outside usa vast count)
I.D: , what..harness
1: main, there are 30 main harnesses, but AT3 and AT4 are same, all else same! (doors/engine/2wd/4wd/years/etc)
31: cluster IP, harness years/and doors. (x5)
35:floor, all same but door count.
39:rear lamp , just door count.
43- engine, year, doors , 8v and 16v , m/t and AT (means both)2wd/4wd there are 11 harnesses here.
45-INJectors, just 1 for 16v.
57-tranmission harness (9 total types) varies by door /at/mt/2wd/4wd. but all AT the same , all else the same. and one calif verion(?) wow.
there are other wiring assemblies (117 line items)
but above are key , to topic.
seem if car is same doors, 4wd , the AT trans harness for 3speed works for 4speed.
and same with ECU if all is same. but trans type.
This is because(my best guess) the AT- version ECU sends the same load data serial data to the TCM even if the TCM is missing.(on 3AT)
the data is just sent blindly, until later years. much later.
On newer cars if the ECU cant send commands to the TCM it sets up errors.
P1600 is one such error, 1996+ (and you fail smog tests ,just for that one code)
so the old ECU send data blindly, (a good thing in this case)
try to understand the 4sp has no 3AT vacuum modulator (vacuum is load on all 3speeds)
the 4speed uses load data from the ECU, and will never shift correctly lacking that serial load data from ECU to TCM.
what that means is up hills it may not down shift. see? it still auto-shifts , but cant do it correctly. lacking correct ECU.
how is that?
so in truth its find a 3spd auto or find a work around to get fully shifting good trans situation... that is just as bad as the conversion from 5spd,, but things I know for sure,, engine in the current truck defiantly out of a stick.. no bell crank, no vacuum from intake,, shorted o2 sensor, if I plug it in the wires smoke.. really bad situation,, and trans is sick/ dead,,
so slipping trans not due to missing vacuum?, or missing kick down?,, and possibly bad converter or pump or both, most likely bad seals clutches,, no real way to check for bad converter,.. unless I take it to a shop for Big money....if I had only known, I would have left them for dead... guess im getting old used to be very easy to change /swap trans ,,bell housing matches vacuum lines connected ,, transmission goes no worries.... 700r4 might be a way to go but I still have no clue if the bell housing will fit,, shops wont tell me jack unless I bring it in and forums are almost all heavy mods.... I am worn out just reading all the info. let alone, doing an actual swap. Lastly , this is a Suzuki forum lol.. man im boned.
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - fixkick - 04-23-2016
truth is bad transmission are expensive to fix. (any car) and truth 2 is finding good used 20 year old transmissions is only a dream. (never attained but luck can happen)
the TB is different on all A/T side kicks it has a twin cable, if cruise option 3 cables.
one cable bell crank? is 5sp, clear as day
the missing vacuum port is very easy to add, drill hole, tap it to NPT pipe
or more easy, buy $1 TEE fitting and add Tee to any hard vacuum line, there are many, (8v and 16v are diffr. locations and i forget what engines are there)
shorted 02 is easy, the 02 heater, wire is grounded to the frame, find it and fix it , its not bad , its an easy fix and common failure on all cars with o2s (1/2 billion?)
or the 02 heater is shorted inside (so common this is)
some years, have a relay for the 02, i'd need cars vin to look it up. see what the exact year had.... most are no relay, 02 cars.
slipping trans is never vacuum. lost to modulator valve. the valve come in color codes to match engine power. and shift points. (load based all)
only failure to up shift, in time. vacuum is load sensing device on all 3AT. (low vacuum shift later)
it never slips. ever. but some Mod valves can leak into the inside of case, so bad you get stuck in 1st gear. but that is NOT slip.
no the bell will not work, the bells only fit G16, so only the bells sold with G16 fit only the the TM180m and the A44de.
the bells and the tail adapters, make the TM180 a 3L30, and the 03-72LE , from a A44de
a44de is a trans case (and insides) and with no bell and no tail housings
tails and head vary on all engines.
Try to know that you need a transmission with Suzuki bell and tail. there are no 700r4 (1982 to 1993) the suzuki bells/tails. nada.
as you can see 1993 was end of 700s. ( 1993 Camaro) 23 year old 700r4 lay about good? id not lay odds on that bet.... ever.
after that the trans became 4Lxx box (xx = 40,60,80 , torque rating), with electronic shift and now you are back to no TCM again.
in 1989 the first Vitara, there were no 700s then (history matters). so they used GM,s French made Tm180s, the 2door is 2000lbs so works.
where can you find one. Suzuki are not a CHEVY, like 1million made, more like 50k made in whole usa. in 1 year. (some years way less and now gone,due to low sales here... they left car market in usa and canada for "underdog" status.
it's an underdog car, it's not even in the realm of a TOYOTA say corolla, 40million total on the road, and each day parts part get harder to find on Suzuki cars.
for sure working used transmissions tops this list, (and most get parked the day this quits, as you see now , why, the COST)
In fact, id bet this is the top hard part to get.?
a working used, (not rebuilt ) tranny
and good engine cores. 2nd.
each day , this will get worse. I promise.
buy a toyota if what you seek are easy to find parts used, in the wild. (in RICE form)
if not wanting rice >?
buy a Jeep.
no better car for parts. ever. (modern cars say 1990 up)
I have JK jeep. love it. (own 7 total in my life) im a JEEP guy, the sidekick is my japjeep. (my name) a kamakaze missed my dad by 6 inches, so i can call it that.
the sidekick is great off road or on snow. in buffeting winds, a great horror, fast. even 50mph, its' a box kite. so, its good and bad.
please know that there are many extremist forums, mostly kids 19 year old (like I was)
that will spend 100s of hours fitting up and alien transmission
with a full shop of tools.
plasma cutter.
and tig/mig welder. (cutting floor pans and drive shafts, childs play)
and can setup anything and do so.,.. many do. but are the 1%
have photos of sidekick on top of huge diesel truck frame. (or force fed one)
mods have no limits to the patient and deep pockets or ,just have infinite time to work this out. (i do , im retired)
i only showed those links to show you how hard it is.... only that....
bringing you back full circle to , fixing your box. or other stock issues.
3L30 slip.
Back on track, (no pun)
the stall test fails, and trans slips in D, R and L. (clear symptoms)
the next step you skipped, the" line pressure test. " costs like $20 in tools."
and my guess will fail hard, in DRIVE
min, pressure is 71 psi.
when that fails this means: (from the 3L30 diagnosis book, in every fsm in print with 3sp, with my comments)
1;low fill level (no way, you check day 1)
2: clogged filter/screen or put back wrong missing seal.( 30k service point the the scheduled service listings, dont go over 50k is best)
3:pump suction line breached, due to above, or any way the pump can suck air.!
4:leak in the pump pressure circuit ( see the hydra, map, it seems endless this path, lots of seals must work... ) THIS IS THE HARD ONE.
5: the pump pressure reg bad, or suck wide open.
6
tuck check balls (dirt/gum caused) in valve body or even missing (after rebuild)#4 to 6, shows as "time to rebuild the box." for good reasons.
This is a Suzuki forum, not a transmission forum, we can do all the tests in the FSM called ON car tests. to prove the box is bad, or good. on car.
many car makers do not make transmissions, a fact. and just buy them and fit on there own bell, and tail.
you have not done step3)
the Dealer does this and if bad sends the box out of the tranny shop, why? because fixing them is tedious and risky. (imagine customer returns and the lost profits from that? its non trivial this part... (and understatement if ever there was)
when you buy a rebuilt the cost also includes 4 warranties, (none are free, nothing really is)
or 3
1 for you. 3k miles or 3 days..(LOL)
2 for the shop (repair car shop) (sends it back to #3)
3rd for the tranny rebuilder. (omg #2 spun it ATF empty)
a hard cold fact that and not cheap ,as A/T have this bad vibe.... (fails works fails works, that....)
$200 core (if lucky get it back)
$300 parts
$500 labor
$500 insurance. like that....
one guy here replaced the 4speed ,3 times, found the ground strap missing and TCM can't shift , lacking the strap, (electrics 101)
so why skip step2 (1 levels, dipstick, 2, stall test failed, so step 3. what?
line pressure testing?
the 4speed needs a working TCM , (if auto-shifting is a important feature, for me, i dont need it , in same spot.. i can move my hand no probs.
the 5sp can run the 3sp, but no lockup happens, unless ecu change and 1 added wire(and relay)
"I still have no clue if the bell housing will fit,"
it wont. its no small or large block chevy.
the Geo is no chevy nor true GM (Suzuki and GM did share owner ship of the CAMI plant then) the first 1989 Geo was made in japan . then moved to CAMI.
the 3speed is the only true GM part on the car. From France, GM transmission factory.
nothing else is GM
nor does G16 bell fit any GM v6 or GM v8, not by a long shot. not even close.
at cami they made the GEO and Suzuki side by side an slapped on a badge.
if you open the GEO hood behold its a Suzuki.
91 geo
http://www.fixkick.com/specs/Body-TAGS/html/image_4.html
see the top of tag?
short answer for those with day job? ) not me, id have it apart on 3x six foot tables. in the garage. and the $300 kit,sitting there. but no day jobs for me...
I'd even call it fun.. (yes, very sick mind ) love a challenge. and have done 2 A/t and 10 MT. or more. can't count them.
1: sell one as is dead, and with proceeds,pay for rebuilt trans. 3L30.
2: find a used one (trans) with warranty, (almost impossible this old) Some wrecker do , offer 5 to 7 days returns... (hard to do on any day job)
the key to success (DIY) is the bench testing as you assemble the box with new kit.
shop air is a must. with a very good regulator.
in pro shop, just one stand engine, is used,
one engine and huge pile of expensive hand made adaptor plates, it's called engine stand testing
why do they do this?, (their warranty is iron clad, and expensive)
nobody wants to do it 2 times, (unless we love the battle, some do)
hope that helps you in some small way.
sure do.
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - Michtrackerproject - 04-23-2016
yes it all helps but some basic questions I cant seem to find answers for ,, like in this link
http://www.justanswer.com/gm/5s649-geo-tracker-replace-95-tracker-speed.html
a GM expert is suggesting a 700r4 swap on a tracker 16v I believe, but these are still the same block as the 8v.. yes<>? so seems like it should be possible,, as for finding a running s10 its a lot easier then the trackers, ... even wrecks are easier to find I had been looking for a s10 in case I had not other options for a trans .
But in the article it seems that the tracker in question is a 2wd.. so it leaves me to wonder if the transfer case would bolt onto the 700r4 , or maybe I can find a 4wd s10/.. if the bell housing would work out.. I know earlier model 700s had a separate bell.
as for step 3.. I don't really even have a garage let alone a shop so trans slips ,,, means to me its shot .. step 3 is no loner an issue low pressure no matter the reason means a tear down and no working transmission... so test results would not help, unless they lead me to a simple miracle cure.
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - fixkick - 04-24-2016
all G16a and B blocks are same, and same Suzuki Partnumber,,,, the heads and pistons are different (and EFI totally different and harnesses, etc)
that is correct the bell is fixed, on the hyrdamatic, pre 93. so ...
the new trans is electric shifted ONLY and
The Later 4L60-E has a six bolt "hex" rear bolt pattern and a removable bellhousing. , so again you need a TCM, and all the trimmings...
Seems the TCM question keeps not being answered here. to do no not to do it.... on the 700 , takes custom TCM programmed to run 80 hp engine...
so the 2.8L metric S10 in 1992 an fits, some I-4's (83-92) again very old, and most are dead. 1 piece case 700r4s
but what about all the other problems, Clutch TC and spider, and all that. The shifting working right with only 80hp.
700s come in a vast numbers of engine flange configurations.
seen here
http://www.gotallautoparts.com/transmissions/gm-transmissions/
here are the patterns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_bellhousing_patterns
see this?
called GM metric pattern or S10 early pattern.
and fits these , I4s (note the missing G16s below)
AMC/Chrysler 2.5L I4 found in Jeep Cherokee, Comanche, Wagoneer, CJ and Wrangler and Dodge Dakota
GM Iron Duke/Tech-4 2.5L I4 (2.8L bell phased in . 1982)
GM "122" 1.8/2.0/2.2 L I4 (1982-2003, with the new metric bell.)
here it is,
![[Image: 330px-GM_60deg_V6_bellhousing.JPG]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/GM_60deg_V6_bellhousing.JPG/330px-GM_60deg_V6_bellhousing.JPG)
the G16a looks like this, i guess you've never seen one? (it's not from GM it's from the Suzuki engineers in JAPAN a totally metric engine)
Japan engineers did not work together back in the days of first GM early metric engines (like the 1983 S10 pattern)
the inline 4.
![[Image: 3_10_01_16_11_44_05.jpeg]](http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/gallery/3_10_01_16_11_44_05.jpeg)
do they match patterns? does a Suzuki pattern match the S10 metric pattern? I say no.... just look here.
seems to me its a false dream.
no?
if you google for sidekick/trackers 700r4s
you see all of them are engine swaps, not G16.(G16 blown up) (expect your link from.) or G16 is too weak, now kicked to curb..... if you read the forum details.
this is a G16 engine, is metric, and is Suzuki design. starting back in 1988 or more early for the G13s for earlier, cars.
The G series engines are pure Suzuki JAPAN, is not in any way related to GM. (cept the joint deal in CAMI)in 1989.
now your discovered rumor. (only one i can find) and linked by you.
"Expert: kalamykid replied 4 years ago.
You can use a 700r4 out of an s10 with a 2.8. This should? bolt right in and you would not have to change anything but maybe the plug for the lock up converter. the 700r4 does not use the pcm, so no need to rewire or change any of the el4ectricals in the car. YOu may have to move the cross member back about 1 inch to make room for the trans mount, and you will need to have a new drive shaft made as the 700 is longer the the 3l30 in the tracker now, but the yoke should be the same, you just need to have the drive shaft shortened."
note the key word, "should", im guess he thinks , metric, pattern from GM is same as G16s from Japan. why he would think that ,eludes me.
he then avoids the clutch and spider issues.
and 4wd. issues.
or on 2wd the 2wd drive Suzuki setup. all unique to SUZUKI
my guess is he does not know that GM never designed any TRACKER (GEO GM Tracker)
so you have 80-93 S10 transmissions just laying about , all good to go.?? I think not.
sure lots of cores, in the major rebuilders, warehouses.... lots. all DOA.
off my swap page
The G10 has the exact same transmission bell ,bolt pattern as the G13, and the G13 tranny can be bolted to the G16 at the top,
but the bottom bolts don't line up - so you make an adapter or weld & drill -
as you can see the pattern evolved at Suzuki from early G10s to G16s, I'd say GM was not part of the evolution,.
researching bolt patterns is not easy. i see zero. (heck Suzuki never even published the OBD1 protocol, a very closed maker,end rant)
leaving what?
what fits behind the 03-72LE bell, answer a40s, Aisin boxes only. the maker is called AISIN CO.
what fits behind the GM 3L-30 bell, answer. is TM180s only. and maybe their newer boxes.(and longer) 4L30s but is TCM shifted, bad to that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_4L30-E_transmission
to find this out, ask any rebuilder, (mixing TH180 parts with 4L30s) and the results. (box length, tail shaft length and spline sizes)(extreme hacking here)
and this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_transmissions
see how the TCM shifted (electronic) trans are in its own sections?>
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - Michtrackerproject - 04-24-2016
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - fixkick - 04-24-2016
the blocks are the same, only the pistons are different <cut to clear 16 valves they are.) the 16v has a 16v new head in 1992 to 1998.
not true the 3 speed has no side braces
the 5 speed and 4speed both are side braced, a fact.
i fact the p/n on both side braces are same (4/5sp) on R and left , so if your side braces are missing someone took them off, and we see that all the time. but the left different size from right, yes, but the match set fits both 4/5speed boxes.
missing parts are common. (20 year old cars are like that... and worse)
again the G16 block factory part numbers for the naked block are IDENTICAL.
so be the trans mount pattern , identical, to a fault.
that image does not matter, it's a G16 block there is no trans there. (but a 3speed has no braces, doe to short length.)
those white circles are the 5speed side mounts. same as 4speed , for sure.
the 4sp is a longer box, and huge longer with 4wd transfer case ,the braces are needed, and for sure offroading,
same with 5peed
do you need the EPC catalog photos , have them. its all easy to post, bam.
it's true few persons ever seen a sidekick with no parts missing, ive added them to make it so, on many.
here is proof of this on the 4door car. in usa, the V code body.
![[Image: 3_23_04_16_3_38_49.jpeg]](http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/gallery/3_23_04_16_3_38_49.jpeg)
the 700r4 is a dead end, 2 ways
one , it only fits i4 iron duke blocks. not suzuki ,suzuki is not GM.
and when turned metric size the 700 went electric shift (+tcm brain) and bell now comes off "4L60". so.. double dead end there,
the confusion I see, are the words, in the wiki fits some GM I4. a dead dead end that.
non electric 700s you can't swap bells. even if there was a bell, that does not exist.
end rumors 700s.
to be clear
all permutations of sidekick G16 series
the blocks are all the same. (naked) and crank and rods. but not pistons.
and the rear tranny mounts are IDENTICAL. (even the 3sp sans side stiffeners irons,, the block still has the place to put them for 4sp and 5)
to make matters worse
Suzuki vin codes then all vin 0
so when buy parts, be ready to get wrong parts 1/2 the time.
GM corrected this inane blunder with V and 6 codes for each engine. 6 = 16v head and ecu,etc.
and a RPO sticker (as built)
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - Michtrackerproject - 05-04-2016
ok hello again,, latest update I believe I have found a working trans,, .. not sure yet.. but after picking the unit up I noticed what seems to be a lot of play / movement in the output shaft,, ,, is there any place I can find out what or if there is an acceptable amount of play in the output shaft since technically it does not currently have a tail shaft on it,, being as the transfer case is off currently..
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - fixkick - 05-04-2016
3speed?
4wd? or 2wd? (some 2wd setups are no tail, others are a dummy 4wdbox but is 2wd) i cant guess this, the fully 2wd setup, is very strange when first seen.
my guess is you will run 4wd.
the 3speed have a tail busing not real; bearing and love to go bad
all transmission parts shops sell it. cheap
part 066 here? 4wd
http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/graphics/Catalog-pdf/3L30-180.pdf
NON OEM PARTS sources ,other than Suzuki (3sp and 4sp). the bush is a top fail part, in 3l30s
http://www.fixkick.com/slush-pump.html#Parts
if the bushing has lateral pay felt by hand, it's no good. normal would be like .002" that we humans cant feel.
but is a 99cent part. so....
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - Michtrackerproject - 05-06-2016
,, from the looks of it the case has to be opened to replace part #066.. yes ..
but as for the play , I have up down and left right movement, ..but no in out movement. the transfer box input shaft slides over the output shaft and completes the drive line,, .. the rear seal seems to be in good order and no leaking from what I could tell. The front seal torque converter side was leaking, and maybe the shift shaft. I believe I have both seals but rear seal and bushing seems to be harder to find,, does anyone have a part # from say a parts store or the likes...
RE: 1991 3spd auto ""HELP!!!" - fixkick - 05-06-2016
yes, the 4wd box and 2wd are different, the tail shaft is real long on the 2wd, to match up the rear bush in the long, tail housing and seal landing zone there.
the 2wd/4wd main case are all the same, and so is the bush. only the 3l30 adapter plate changes, (and is its purpose to pull that magic off)
the 4wd is exactly as shown, and Suzuki does not sell some parts, (that bush) best i can tell, not in the list that bush for suzuki.
Most parts are all sold, by the top transmission parts houses. (that sell to transmission shops, suzuki never rebuilds them)
see them here>?
https://www.google.com/#q=transmission+parts++th180
what exact parts?, i need to know each exact part needed,
just the 3sp parts
or the transfer case.?
or the adapter flange sub parts?
parts store?, a walkin brick parts store, will have maybe input and output seals. and PRNDL switches, that is about it, other parts are from wholesale parts houses. like makco , etc.
the adapter housing, has one seal for 4wd.
this seal is suzuki p/n 29792-57b01 $27 as suz.
https://www.suzukicarparts.com/parts/1995/Suzuki/Sidekick/JLX/index.cfm?siteid=214820
the front bell seal is 22823-61a01 $27 at suz, too.
the side manual valve seal, small, is 24716-61a00 $9 same place.
Most transmission parts houses stock at least the front seal and side seal , the 3l30 adapter seal. my be more hard to find, (not from suz)
if you google search Tm180s, you will find larger numbers of photo drawings.
here is one off my 3l30 page.
http://www.fixkick.com/tranny/slush/3L30-BUSH1.jpg
this is the 2wd page suzuki actual page.
the 107 part is the last part to come out of the case. and if it has side play (end play is not an issue here) the side play will beat out a new seal fast. (a kinda seal torture, ask your rebuilder this... he knows, why seals fail early, all do)
bush 124 you don't have it, the 2wd, long shaft is not there.
end play is controlled by those washers and thrust bearings.
now lets discuss ,p/n (id and names of parts)
GM uses there own, (french made GM box (parts lists) and and the GEO has its own numbers for its same parts, and ID code#
then Suzuki has there own ID and p/n.
then some parts houses (they sell only transmission parts) use their own ID , names and their p/n' (or use GMs)
that means finding parts is an adventure.
find a source, get there drawings use their ID and P/n and order from them, wash wear and repeat.
here is gm page, that is very clear.
http://www.ganzeboom.net/uploads/documents/th180.pdf
Autostores do not sell transmission part (the 200 parts)
the may sell :
TC
the seals on bell and seal on tail. (but not the 4wd tail seal ,as most DIY never pull tranfercase ever,is why)
the will carry, the 2wd tail seal. on most cars made. as a general rule.
look here,
rockauto
see the shift seal by top maker Timken.?
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/suzuki,1995,sidekick,1.6l+l4,1271450,transmission-automatic
note the suppliers names there, a clue to finding them and there catalog,,, a win.
here is pioneer
must DL whole huge PDF to read, it.
http://www.pioneerautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/TR-2011.2-Catalog-Complete.pdf
seems the bushing is the most hard part to remove
the rear planetary gear cage/tail shaft must pulled, and that only comes out the front and is the very 2nd to last step, last is bush.
sorry