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+--- Thread: EGR stall test question (/thread-egr-stall-test-question)
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-17-2014
OK. Findings: VSV hose has no vacuum at all, idle or revved up (did not do it with rear wheels raised and moving in neutral?), but VSV ohms are in the range 35.xx. Still need to check if there is 12v at idle and then 0v when gunned (what if there is no 12v, open wire, bad fuse??). With VSV not energized i can blow air from a-b. Is that OK? The manifold vacuum test worked fine as it pulled from both, P nipple and EGR main nipple causing car to go down on rpms but never stalled. On another good news or bad, Thermoprobe was pulled from the Main EGR without damage and it was very very clean. My suspicion is that it is bad. Still at 9pm it reads 179ohms. Maybe this was the problem all along. What do you think?
Thanks and have a good night!!
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-18-2014
Ok more pics of some of the things iu;m doing to get to thje bottom of this.
Ok thr EGRT measured again this morning 179ohms, cold test.
Then i boiled water and did the hot test and it measured as low as 12.6
So we could say EGRT is the responsible for that 51? I can just simply disconnect it or is it going to confuse the ECU?
Then I proceeded to test the EGR paths with IM still in with this little gadget
I inserted this nipple
And blew air from top of the hose to exhst port
and no restrictions at all. Air passed all the way to exhaust 4 port(I could also hear the air.
Then onto intake port
On this one also no restrictions and I could feel/hear air coming out of the EGR exhst port?
Is this normal? I know is not a test you have mentioned but I went ahead I tried it just to make sure passages are fine(or so they seem) and possibly avoid taking IM off (at least today cause car has to be ready for weeks work commuting). Anyways could we say for sure it is the EGRT after this test?
Hope this sheds some more light on this matter.
Javier
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-18-2014
one simple tests, works on may parts, thermostat. IAC, and the EGRT.
room temp
then boiling water test.
like a charm. if the probe is not packed in carbon, if packed, its all hopeless. even with a perfectly working EGR.
The probe extends in to the flow of exhaust, it must or will read wrong, packed up.
main gasket:
yes, the embossed, lips. surely it can work, if put back exactly same way. its new and fresh. Id never re use an head gasket, but others have done it many a time and no one leak.
but fate is a bummer sometimes...
drops to 45k, ohms 45,000 ,
keep in mind, i dont think suzuki tell the trip point, but i dont have the 94 FSM to look that up on 51 page.
but surely it can hit 212F easy, 100C. the exh is very hot. 11.2 to 13.6k ohms 13,600 ohms no higher.
id clean it and pan test it. its very easy to get boiling water. even a camp stove if wife kicks you out of house.... mine wont. she's a doll.
yes, and sorry you roasted your hands,,on car test is not easy, non are.
the last thing,is I do know know if the rear wheels need to turn , to get a live test.
i just dont know this,,there are 4 ECUs used, and the books don't say , unless you have a real 1994 FSM. i dont.
my trick is:
what I do , is use my voltmeter to see what the VSV does. (meter on the 2 pins )
0 volts is valve open, VSV removed is open valve, oddly. (at idle all years, this pin pair reads, 12v at idle) i use back probe needles or leather needles (sold at walfart for a buck) <in a pinch.
12volts is closed,
using this logic, i can see if ECU is , a moving ECU or not. (rear drive shaft moving ,even dead slow)
i cheat.
i do it this way because the valve might be bad. and using a simple vacuum test, i can get fooled easy.
keep in mind the ported vacuum has no vacuum at idle (top hose is dead, on top of TB (egr nipple line) at idle. "a ported vacuum orifice in the TB"
then you raise throttle (u like details>)?) and TB ported vacuum hits this line to the VSV, the ECU drops the ground, it send to the VSV and the valve opens sending full vacuum to the MOD
but one odd thing here, is that the mod valve has a vent "V". and if stuck open will kill the vacuum too. tricky beast huh?
you could also attach the VSV output line to any vacuum gauge (mod valve is now dead) and see if racing the hot motor gets you a strong vacuum over 8 inches is strong,
VSV is here.
in this photo the cars VSV top cap filter is broken off. this vent , vents the line to the MOD valve, so it can trap a vacuum there, valve off.
with 0v on those 2 pins the VSV valve is open, Vacuum Solenoid valve.
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/16v-engine93w.jpg
if the car runs vaccum out the VSV, hot raised throttle. (race motor a tad)
and you get vacuum, one more trick if the MAIN dont pull in, is to
take that hose off the MOD, the large hose.
and and a long test hose to this nipple the bark nipple.
and blow on it, with lips. bam the MOD , stops venting and full vacuum goes to the main and it pulls in .
I hope my hints help you !
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-18-2014
Great. But EGRT was tested cold(179ohms) and hot( 12.6 boiling water pic). The EGRT test reveals according to the troubleshoot that if cold is below 200hms then is no good? One thing when I sprayed carb cleaner at the tip of the EGR it went as high as 311ohms, cause CRC liquid is very cold. The thermoprobe tip was very very clean. I then cleaned the MAIN one more time.
I think you have not gotten a chance to see my first post today with pics?
Let me know what you think.
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-18-2014
thanks for the data. so its 100% good.
the sensor is crude, very loose spec. see the wide range for just 1 temperature.
311k ohm, that meter is autoranging, and the bottom of the LCD says K, meaning x1000
its good.
now all you you need 2 things, only
flow, (those 4 jets flowing exhaust, not packed)
and that silly VSV must open..
the Mod Valve does all the heavy lifting, it controls flow based on CAT back pressure.
ah, i missed them. thanks photos
yes, all great tests. super really
you can blow easy to #4 , right on. good;
and to the intake side. how may of the 4 are open is the only question , id assume they are.
can you measure the VSV ohms, 35 ohms is par. about.
i really like your photos, i will use them.
here is the Three way vsv page. used on this car.
http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/vsv.html
keep in mind your meter shows 35 with no LCD symbol, no K, no M, this means the LCD scale is in OHMS not k ohms or meg Ohms.
the FSM page there, shows, the bench test on it. but ohms is first
if it works on the bench then we should attempt the live test.
live (early years, )
hot engine , cat good ,not missing guts of cat. raise throttle to high rpm in park the MAIN should move. end test. early cars.
easy do to , no fooling around., there
now?
live test (starting some time in 1994) ,
a: life insurance paid up. hot engine. rear axle on jack stands, front tires chocked.
in PARK gear selection.
b: race engine RPM, in park, the egr main does not move. (diaphragm)
c: cut throttle to idle.
d: shift to 1s gear. let it idle and have one person with flash light look at main, then advance the throttle, rear tires spin in air, and the EGR opens.
passes the live test.. but is dangerous, 3 man rule is safer. below. no kids or pets around and car point in safe direction, but there is a person in the drivers seat, for saftey.
now in shift to Neutral. park is no good now.or transfer case to neutral. the rear of the transfer case tail shaft and drive shaft are free to spin now.
the FSM shows keeping car in neutral, right rear tire on ground, , and left tire up in AIR , rear, so you can talk to driver. the other tire on ground forces the drive shaft to spin , neutral.
you look at tire, its not moving, proving neutral...
then spin the tire, by hand CCW even a dead slow spin, makes drive shaft turn, and VSS clicks (veh.speed sensor) the EGR mains moves. now. 3 person, a pain yes.
when the VSS clicks and the throttle advances the ECU then open the EGR VSV and you get vacuum to the EGR main.
sorry that is so complex ,but is pay back for Hiroshima.... my guess.
i love that boiling EGRT, so clear what to do...
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-18-2014
Thanks. Really do use the pics. My one question before proceeding with live test.
If EGRT did not get all the way to 200+ohms in car cold, does not that rules it as a bad thermoprobe? Maybe because I live in the tropics? I mean our mornings in summer are not Montana mornings?
Boiling test was done in the 200k range. Cold test was done in the 2000k range and also 2000k range when tip was sprayed with CRC liquid to see if it went higher than my 179ohms from cold test.
There is no way to tell if all 4 port are totally free of crap (i did my best in such a short time in cleaning them), I do know that this morning when I blew air in intake EGR port air was flowing and some coming out of the EGR exhaust port as well. I never ruptured my lungs though while blowing air in both ports with manifold installed. That is all I can say about that test i made up.
VSV test was done also in the 200k range as we were looking for 35ohms or higher? I will start a new thread as something rare happened today while leaving the house on the kick!! Jesus!!
Javier
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-18-2014
we dont think the EGRt is ever check for cold temp. only hot, and open circuit, 51 is not hot, DTC 53 for open circuit, unplugged etc.
68
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-18-2014
Good day Fixkick. Please read below.
[quote='fixkick' pid='2277' dateline='1408355029']
we dont think the EGRt is ever check for cold temp. only hot, and open circuit, 51 is not hot, DTC 53 for open circuit, unplugged etc.
68
RE: EGR stall test question - fixkick - 08-19-2014
sorry if i mix you up ,helping on 3 forums with EGR , about 2, or persons, on each, omg...
the stall test is an RPM test.
the engine is hot. its 800 rpm hot, if not the engine is running bad and needs fixing first.
you push in the egr and it stalls or near stalls, 400 rpm is typical, the dash speedo is very crude, but the engine will shack real bad and RPMs drop by 1/2 . this is easy to see. no tacho.
with no tacho., its just pure experience, what a good one does, RPM wise and the huge shaking at 400 rpm the ECU tries every trick in the book to prevent the stall, even using the ISC aggressively and timing changes.
that is the stall test.
and is repeated with a hand vacuum pump. at the main nipple, (leak down test first the, do the stall with the vacuum tool) if it near stalls the same why the main EGR paths is good.
if the EGR dont hit 14k ohms with hand movement, of the diaphram the probe is just packed in carbon, heck never seen one not. not ever. its a carbon, magnet.
that is next , if the stall fails, the paths are blocked, and the EGRT is not fibbing, or is also just packed.
some folks get very frustrated, (rational , and justified) and clean it all, then test it and if it still fails do all the test. end to end, stall ,bark and live test.
the dash tacho shows the huge rpm drop or its fibbing, but all these analog tachos in dash are horribly , inaccurate, on the low end. 0 to 1000 rpm
can be off 100 rpm at 800
and 200 off at lower readings, this is why I never use it. its only a RED line warning device to me.. nothing more.
if the engine almost stalls, the pathes are usually good (exh)
but the 4 port, egr intake, loves to clog one port and that cyclinder how has full HP, and will drag the near dead ones faster. see?
or 2 are clogged.
that is why TRUE RPM matters. but i do admit , that the 4 port is very hard to test. only cleaning the ports makes for passing EGR. 51s./
RE: EGR stall test question - zukitrek - 08-19-2014
[quote='fixkick' pid='2290' dateline='1408373901']