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+--- Thread: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire (/thread-plugs-have-red-oily-stain-and-misfire)
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - fixkick - 06-01-2015
many fuels are tinted, all over the world., (by law, or by oil companies, conveniences )
This car, has (had) red fuel. and you'd need to know that, anytime you see the signs of RED in places not wanted.
1: the engine oil.
2: spark plugs.
if the engine misfires with red fuel , the plug will turn red, how could not not?
your oil is not red, so that check passes.
so that leaves gross misfiring of this cylinder, or
oil fouling caused misfiring and the red fuel , making it turn red. (it will turn red misfiring, there is no stopping that , short of getting non red fuel.)
but i cant feel or smell your spark plug, ahh that is oil there, and must not be there.. so its oil fouling..... end of story. (means fix the root cause of oil INGRESS)
there are only 3 sources of oil here. (4 if cracks found in head....)
1: normal valve guides leaking. (intake is prime suspect on all engines, do to VACUUM there.)
2: cVcc guides leaking (in both cases it can be guides bad or cracks or in this case, the bad base seal, in the CVCC base or the whole thing bad)<<, only inspections work....
3: oil control ring, stuck in land, cracked, bad, or razor thin for 300k miles + end of life.
there is no "strongly deduce..." here. not with hands in pocket, (only inspections work and miking parts)
unless the crankcase if full (1/2) of red fuel. mixed with oil. (its not)
strongly deduce?
there is no such thing. all we know is there is oil in the combustion. nothing else ! and sure gross misfire and oily plug..
what causes the head to leak oil. (if its the head at all) is a matter of head off inspections. and pressure testing.
measuring all guide play by the book.
measure stem to guide clearance is just one step. (missing seals or damaged seals)
damage to the CVCC assembly in any way or form. (as hinted by builder)
if the head passes all tests , the oil control ring is bad.
the CVCC chamber is part of the main chamber, so ether can have too much oil, not just the CVCC, there is no way to prove that.
well, a CVCC expert (in not) can tell you if you can defeat the CVCC rocker, will the engine still run (this cylinder) ok? and stop the oil flow there. (wild guessing here...)
there are 2 intake valves.
the CVCC is rich and the regular valve is lean. the CVCC chamber fires and this ignites the lean in the main side.
so if you kill the CVCC dead, my be it will stop leaking oil. and the main will still burn ok, (who knows?)
end wild idea.....
The CVCC has 4 more ways to leak oil, (or more if cracks found or seals bad) more parts to fail, it has....
one could machine up a set of CVCC dummy plugs, after removing them totally and rockers.
then run carb tad richer. (finding parts is not easy on this old engine.) CVCC free mode.... i wonder if any one has done this.
or buy a head that is free of this setup... (its for USA 1975 laws,,,, ) id bet they had engines sold without it.. .somewhere., in the world.
if i had this, id be in the market for good head, or begging on craigs list for the Part.
And on all forums , with this topic.
it's not bad spark, unless the cylinder is 100% dead, and the normal oiling ways works up to the spark plug.
a dead cylinder will get some oil up top if you like drive 100 miles on a dead cylinder, (for sure on high mileage engines, and weak oil control ring)
china parts are ok, its noname parts that are suspect.
as you may not know, BOSCH has a plant in CHINA and makes 100% ISO 9000 grade parts. (that grade passes laws to allow import into Europe. unlike USA junk , we import all things. junk to good here, so must be on the look out for pure junk , like what is sold on fleabay... NO NAME.
Bosch ok to great.... great mag wires too....
NKJ , super good. (nothing better, ,really)
"sometingwong" bad. (if you can't pronounced it , run)
my list of real names, junk
Hebei Jintaisen
changzhou wujin sunan
Oingdao habid
Changzho shine
Guanxian Sanhui
Anrui holding
Qingtan special
Shandong Quanxian Kngsn
Jinan Kelunte
Tiansui DRB trading co.
Luoang boying
Xiamen Oujia import
Shangyu Hongda
Jiashan Dingyi
Shengang Zhongye Guangyan
Dogguan Shuanglian
and 600 more....
so now no red fuel
amber.
and now the spark plug is just amber oil fouled.
what do we need to know now....
answer (who leaks ? oil....)
the PCV could be blocked , exploiting the bad valves guides. as crank case pressure rises to illegal states. the guide so leak more.... just on high mileage engines...
this CVCC design is just a lean burn scheme.
it allows weak fueling to ignite in the main.
its not for economy, it to pass smog with no cat converter on the car, making this car , a rare car, that time that burns leaded and unleaded fuel.. (a big sales point at the time)
but has more parts to break.
but where to buy them.... ive not a clue.
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - zukitrek - 06-02-2015
Thanks sir. Yes many places where it could fail. I was the rebuilder so many steps were not done in the rebuilding like measuring guides clearances with real tools. But that would be a multiple places failure and so far it has not been the case, only on that cylinder. Maybe luck? But other things were measured, gapped etc following FSM steps and specs.
On topic off topic, Gulf premium gas is also Amber, so my guess is that premium is amber, regular red all over PR.
I still have cat, PCV breather chamber cleaned to my best skills, new PCV filter. All rings, valve seals are new. Yes I haven't seen a single article on modding that cvcc part. Yes there is another head without the cvcc, its called the Si head, for those years. You see Im trying to salvage this as it would mean I did the best I could, but I know my options in case all goes south. I have another guy in the US that will sell me just one valve holder, I just can't make him do it super fast, so he told me he is working on that, so waiting time for me.
We had already done the plug wire swap and problem stayed in that spark, thats is why I though that maybe changing cap could also be eliminated as a problem. In your knowledge, have you encountered spark problems with good spark, wire and cap and rotor? What else could affect no ignition or weak spark, if that be the case?
Thanks for your time sir. Ill keep you posted.
Javier
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - fixkick - 06-02-2015
your trying to get spark to burn oil,,,, that may prove hard,or impossible.
ok, Si heads are the bees knees.... simple.
the head is complex. and all rebuilders know what to do. they run pressure tests.... that is way its best to have a head builder do this...
just the cap and wire and plug, the coil is common to all plugs.
i hope is just replace one bad CVCC valve assembly, there is a seal on the bottom of the assembly ,even it might be leaking.
felpro sells these (aux valve its called)
http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brand=FL&PartNumber=SS%2072713&pt=Valve%20Stem%20Seal%20Set&lu=1987%20HONDA%20CIVIC&vin=
all sets
http://www.fme-cat.com/Application.aspx?year=1987&make=HONDA&model=CIVIC&engbase=1.3L%204Cyl%20L%20%281342%29%2882%29&ga=Y&back=true
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - zukitrek - 06-02-2015
That was my only old part that I could not remove. Those damn copper washers were frozen at the bottom of that almost impossible to get any tool inside, hole. I did not want to scrape or damage the walls in trying to take them out. I did get the whole set but only those washers in all 4 aux holder could not be replaced. Maybe that is my problem?. Ok. Ill wait for the new holder and try a second time in removing those washers. Any ideas?
Thanks!!
(06-02-2015, 06:16 AM)fixkick Wrote: your trying to get spark to burn oil,,,, that may prove hard,or impossible.
Of course not. Im trying to get to the root of the problem which it could well be a bad/damaged valve holder with maybe old copper washer contributing.
Ill keep you posted.
Gracias!!
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - fixkick - 06-03-2015
the root , my guess is in the head.
the root of that my guess is the CVCC valve there, is no good. how or why? takes, looking at it, and measuring play(Clearances) there, per the FSM. and missing parts there, or damaged seals, and rings/gaskets there.
it's not spark. sorry,....
it could just as well be the main intake valve bad. (guide)
when i do heads, the head shop does this. including pressure checks, and for guide wear, and any possibilities of ice damage inside or warping,
i can not do heads, i let machine shops do that magic, we did this in school but we had a full shop there for that. (lots of steps.....)
I only know how to send it to the pro shop and let them make it like new, (ive seen most the ways they fail, but most i cant fix nor even detect (hidden cracks where eye cant touch)
if a rebuilt head is too much, get a good SI head. If i lived in PR, (wish i could) id have an SI head, that way locals could fix it....
see?
it's best to have technology that locals can fix. (simple heads win)
the problem is dealing with heads that have unobtainium level parts.
best is to avoid them, unless car is hanger queen, or classic show car, (non daily drivers)
this is what you don't want to own, in most cases..... i just sold one.... happy feet..... now 1 more.... a 1966, is next....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium
probably the best cars are 1995. (not too old and not chock-a-block full of computers, ABS< Bags, and expensive system hard to fix or vastly expensive parts....)
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - zukitrek - 06-03-2015
(06-03-2015, 01:35 AM)fixkick Wrote: the root , my guess is in the head.
the root of that my guess is the CVCC valve there, is no good. how or why? takes, looking at it, and measuring play(Clearances) there, per the FSM. and missing parts there, or damaged seals, and rings/gaskets there. Yes the how or whys is irrelevant at this point, agree.
it's not spark. sorry,.... Okie, good to know also.
it could just as well be the main intake valve bad. (guide) Maybe?
when i do heads, the head shop does this. including pressure checks, and for guide wear, I asked one local shop with over 30 years of experience and the guy was too vague about this.
i can not do heads, i let machine shops do that magic, we did this in school but we had a full shop there for that. (lots of steps.....)
Remember this was a poors man rebuild but I knew the risks.
if a rebuilt head is too much, get a good SI head. If i lived in PR, (wish i could) Really looking forward too meet you, please do.
probably the best cars are 1995. (not too old and not chock-a-block full of computers, ABS< Bags, and expensive system hard to fix or vastly expensive parts....)Totally agree. Yes sir. Like I said, the Si head would be my option. First let me get the valve holder form the US guy (as we speak no movement on his part) and we'll take it from there.
Ok ill keep you updated.
Regards!!!
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - fixkick - 06-03-2015
all that is great.
the head shops are vague sure.... after all?, how can they make comments on any head not inspected and fully tested.
wear is unlimited.
ice damage same.
as is warping from heat damage.(and cracks seen or unseen)
what about all 3?
it would be goofy to speculate what might be wrong or if even serviceable at all (deep cracks inside. etc)
finding good old heads is not easy at all,
many shops. if you send them a head, even reject the core.... "not serviceable" and you must pay more for that fact. the core rebate is based on that. (exchanges)
keep in mind they have a warranty and want the head perfect so they don't get returns.
pulling that off on a 28 year old head, is a tall order.
some exchange heads here, cost $350 to 600....
Napa here, costs. $600
yes , when the piston moves down, there is vaccum created. 19" at idle. (way more decelerating)
this vacuum sucks hard, at the guides.
the guide that are worn will suck oil. there is no stopping that..... as they say Nature abhors a vacuum..... in this case, it tries to replace vacuum with oil.
and if R&R any statements would be wrong.
what will be , will be....
damage is , unlimited.
and point 3.
many would flat refuse the job.
there are parts not sold new.
it not a simple SI head. (all guides sold)
it's the magic obsolete CVCC head.
now one more fact.
when you press out 28 year old guides, and they are stuck, and the head is now damaged beyond repair (pressing failure) so now the core is gone. (and the core rebate.
and finding a good core can be impossible, given the 28 year old status....
I guess this guy has them..
http://www.ramscyl.com/honda.htm
$375 + core. (if core good)
Casting #PEO-1 PEO-2 PEO-3 PEO-4 PEO-5 PEO-7 1987-1991
and here
http://machineworldny.com/asp/CylinderHead.aspx?pid=2453&type=A
$100 core, if yours is bad, they reject it... (or offer the value in aluminum scrap)
and be aware some shops, will take a bad core. (usually if swimming in them)
One other possible call them ask if can buy SI head and send back CVCC core..>>?
http://www.aluminumheads.com/Honda.html
or here, no core charge....
http://www.americancylinderheads.com/cylinder_head-Honda-1.5-liter-12-valve-L4-NA-side-Gas-Aluminum-AC210C.html
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - zukitrek - 06-03-2015
(06-03-2015, 04:03 AM)fixkick Wrote: all that is great.
the head shops are vague sure.... after all?, how can they make comments on any head not inspected and fully tested.
What I asked them was what kind of tests they do in heads or if they did the normalising procedure that you mentioned. All this was without knowing what type of head I had. I was expecting a briefing of what they do to and the risk if it gets damaged.
But that was only one shop.
wear is unlimited.
ice damage same.
as is warping from heat damage.(and cracks seen or unseen)
what about all 3?
it would be goofy to speculate what might be wrong or if even serviceable at all (deep cracks inside. etc)
My head was done at another shop and since it was taken in by a friend I really don't know what they did. Probably they did neither (pressurise, normalise, etc) so that is a huge up for grabs. A) no problems found B) did not do the right procedures to determine if it was good or bad and did the job to get the money? Who knows?.
But you learn from this things.
finding good old heads is not easy at all,
many shops. if you send them a head, even reject the core.... "not serviceable" and you must pay more for that fact. the core rebate is based on that. (exchanges)
keep in mind they have a warranty and want the head perfect so they don't get returns.
pulling that off on a 28 year old head, is a tall order.
some exchange heads here, cost $350 to 600....
Napa here, costs. $600
yes , when the piston moves down, there is vaccum created. 19" at idle. (way more decelerating)
this vacuum sucks hard, at the guides.
the guide that are worn will suck oil. there is no stopping that..... as they say Nature abhors a vacuum..... in this case, it tries to replace vacuum with oil.
and if R&R any statements would be wrong.
what will be , will be....
damage is , unlimited.
and point 3.
many would flat refuse the job.
there are parts not sold new.
it not a simple SI head. (all guides sold)
it's the magic obsolete CVCC head.
now one more fact.
when you press out 28 year old guides, and they are stuck, and the head is now damaged beyond repair (pressing failure) so now the core is gone. (and the core rebate.
and finding a good core can be impossible, given the 28 year old status....
I guess this guy has them..
http://www.ramscyl.com/honda.htm
$375 + core. (if core good)
Casting #PEO-1 PEO-2 PEO-3 PEO-4 PEO-5 PEO-7 1987-1991
and here
http://machineworldny.com/asp/CylinderHead.aspx?pid=2453&type=A
$100 core, if yours is bad, they reject it... (or offer the value in aluminum scrap)
and be aware some shops, will take a bad core. (usually if swimming in them)
One other possible call them ask if can buy SI head and send back CVCC core..>>?
http://www.aluminumheads.com/Honda.html
or here, no core charge....
http://www.americancylinderheads.com/cylinder_head-Honda-1.5-liter-12-valve-L4-NA-side-Gas-Aluminum-AC210C.html
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - fixkick - 06-03-2015
it's not an easy head to diagnose.
these guy AERA, sets a great standard. for checks and work and training, on heads and engines.
here is the relax method here, at 500f
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/us110324.htm
one of the best write ups. and short...
RE: Plugs have red oily stain and misfire - zukitrek - 06-07-2015
Sir I have been giving it more thought, the oil ingress thing, and I took this old map schematic of the cvcc system and did some drawings to explain myself. The majority of my oil is in the threads and tip of spark. If it was a very bad oil control ring prob, and if the piston was at the bottom,
oil would flow down the cylinder not accumulating near the spark or valve? this all not ruining, just hand turning it to be on the down stroke. But lets say and looks like it, that aux valve holder was the prob, only tip would be the problem and why threads? Maybe a crack in that area. Like you said the whys are not important, just curiosity. Prob was not present before rebuild(that i can remember), so it must be something (bad valve holder plus old copper washer) or something I skipped.
Regards.