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95 tracker miss after warm up - Printable Version

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RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - 1995 toad - 12-18-2020

ok new wires have been installed.
have been trouble shooting all day on and off as not to get hauled to mental asylum.
re gapped plugs to 28 to see if that helped... same..
hooked up timing light and mark appeared to drop back to set timing when intermittent missing happens.
Installed timing lock jumper and repeated test with painted timing mark for better visualization... same results missing happens when timing returns to zero as it revs. the lock wire does not hold the timing as it revs
so is this an emc problem or a cps ... to me it sounds like ecm
.

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - 1995 toad - 12-18-2020

its actually going to aprox 3* after top dead center when it misses...

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-18-2020

(12-18-2020, 09:34 AM)1995 toad Wrote: ok new wires have been installed.
have been trouble shooting all day on and off as not to get hauled to mental asylum.
re gapped plugs to 28 to see if that helped... same..
hooked up timing light and mark appeared to drop back to set timing when intermittent missing happens.
Installed timing lock jumper and repeated test with painted timing mark for better visualization... same results missing happens when timing returns to zero as it revs. the lock wire does not hold the timing as it revs
so is this an emc problem or a cps ... to me it sounds like ecm
.
the timing freeze only works under very strict rules.
  1. Hot engine and 800 RPM
  2. TPS idle  switch closed at 0vdc (TPS calibration makes that happen)
  3. not in limphome mode. CEL flashes 12 's on demand.
  4. if you advance the throttle,  the freeze ends due to rule 2 failure.
  5. and my huge list here of fails. all that I can ever imagine. (fast idle active, ext)  < ignore 8valve reasons. like DP there. and ignore 89/90 three too.
hot engine test,
engine hot, idle 800 rpm,   turn on head lamps and dash blower fan to high same time, see 800 HOLDs, this proves, #2 and ISC is working and regulating, but doing this test see the 800 sag bit fast and react and recover to 800 this is ISC doing its  job regulation HOT IDLE.


Misfire: (one of the 3)  Besides Limphome mode that goes super rich and misfires. not code 12.
  • Bad spark (includes timing)
  • bad injector (too lean , too rich or just fails to inject ,even randomly sticking injectors)  
  • bad compression (or oil or antifreeze fouling is any combustion chamber)



we have folks that put in new spark wires
and are bad new out of  the box
for sure cheap wires, made from carbon core or silicon core.
some are so cheap the core crimps in the terminals, can be seen to be faulty as in china made $15 wire sets. (NGK or Bosch MAG wire sets are prime)
bad spark coil
bad grounds to the whole spark system parts.


Not sure this. statement yours.
"drop back to set timing when intermittent missing happens"., that is misfire , bad spark. if the timing lamp goes dead
on any spark wire running, that is misfire, spark
if all 4 wires do that the spark coil is bad, if one wire only does that , that wire is bad or cap /rotor problems in distributor.
not sure this effect, Id have to see it.

at hot idle this car has normal timing bounce this is what EFI does normally it move timing aggressively as only EFI can, and does to burn all the fuel, at idle
no 89/90 can do that, as it has no EFI spark at all and is old slow mechanical advance.
the bounce is 100% normal and is why the FREEZE jumper exists ,the only reason, for it. to set spark static timing.-

uses the timing light on all cylinders,  1 by 1. make sure the light does not miss a beat for sure if you hear misfire.  not flash flash mis, flash ,repeat.

that is all I can think about now and here, good luck to you!!!

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-18-2020

same results missing happens when timing returns to zero as it revs

what? I guess you mean freeze fails and is 100% , the second the idle switch opens FREEZE is cancel on all G16a/b sidekicks/trackers/vitara.
91 to 98. only cars. 89/90 cars are not the same.

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-18-2020

its actually going to aprox 3* after top dead center when it misses...

Degrees Before top dead Center BTDC.
5 before TDC and then to 3deg ATDC.

I'm not sure how any ECU acts up during any kind of misfire, not me, ECU are complex in the regard.
normally.
The spark timing is huge matrix map of timings, for all conditions of engine load, vacuum MAF and RPM.
A parked car is zero load.


as far as I know all spark is BTDC, -5BTDC to -40BTDC never after top dead center unless the CMP is bad.? (in the distributor)

a generic map , see huge advance under light loads?
[Image: 489_advance.gif]

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-18-2020

lets go to back to zero here.
you did compression cold and it failed. 150psi is too low, for any G16-16valve, 
195 is warm/hot, is factory spec, ,  mine did 185PSI dead cold.  

all 4 reading low 150 smacks of cam timing is not RIGHT.  (or tool lies or not done test (sparks out , throttle open and let it peak)  compression is  a prime pieces of evidence. (and for sure not almost equal and not changing , test per test)

never seen 150 on any 16v (times 4 mind you) ever, or rings are all shot on all 4 pistons and super odd all 4 worn same exact amount, that is what I think
the 8valve sure has less compression only because the CR is lower, compression ratio lower. on 8v.  16v does
The reading wrong , I check belt slip, (cam) and the crank key from being a wreck.
vast number of these cars engine the key is a wreck.
I have this tool called TDC finder to spark plug hole #1 that proves the key slipped. (crank snout key)
but if unlucky that tool can lie, if the crank cog is loose it will lie. and spark wrong and random, and cam timing wrong , 
the crank shaft turns CW (end viewed) and this makes it want to advance the cam.
that means the cam retards (late) and spark too.
note the  double effect there, crank is advance  (pistons too) and cam is late and retarded. BIG OUCH there.
the crank bolt must be 94ft/lbs (CW) 17mm large bolt.  if not it slips and wrecks the SNOUT.
cam then retards and spark too, (adanced means - x  BTDC from -5 to -40 BTDC , retarded is from -5 the other way to DEAD WRONG ATDC.
to burn all the fuel it must advance and not ever RETARD.

this is like a day 1 check on all G16 the snout not damage. (crank cog front stout keyway , damage frankly unlimited)

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - 1995 toad - 12-19-2020

i understand that the freeze doesn't work when you start to rev the engine.
when i start to rev it the advance goes up like it should.
as you hold it at a higher.. cant see the tach... rpm you can watch the timing mark intermittently go from aprox 20 * to 3* atdc...
i have never seen this happen before.
don't know what controls the advance or retard of timing without a advance plate in the distributer.

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-19-2020

(12-19-2020, 04:32 PM)1995 toad Wrote: i understand that the freeze doesn't work when you start to rev the engine.
when i start to rev it the advance goes up like it should.
as you hold it at a higher.. cant see the tach... rpm you can watch the timing mark intermittently go from approx 20 * to 3* atdc...
i have never seen this happen before. (when things fail many things new things are seen)
don't know what controls the advance or retard of timing without a advance plate in the distributor. (that plate  ended year 1990, gone for ever and ever)
all 91 and newer sidekick and newer cars.(all) DIZZY Timing PLATES ARE GONE forever (in fact EPA banned)

the ECU does all spark advancement, electronic computer controlled spark advancement, in fact all  cars do that. from then to now.
Did you see my full color 3D color spark advance map above?, that what all EFI does then and now, it just TABLE in the ECU ROM memory.(3d viewed !)
the distributor in this car has no vacuum and advance nor centrifugal advance inside,  zero.

that spark triming JUMP you see (spark strobe   test light) is dead wrong;

"intermittently go from approx 20 * to 3* atdc..."  (you mean 20 to the left of zero and then the strobe flies 3degrees to the right of zero. (0)
20 BTDC to 3 ADTC retarded, use these words so it is clear.  

if you saw that , it mean just 2 thing wrong.  (spark is bad) now we know,, that and only why matters)


1: and input to the ECU is bad. (distributor bad) or wires to it bad. (same goes for cam jumping or jittering wrong a pure mechanical failure of cam drive)
2: the ECU is bad.
  • the input is CMP  (cam angle sender) inside the distributor is bad or bad connection or grounds to the distributor.
  • or ECU is bad.


[Image: tdc-look2.jpg]

Spark advance then and now. (rules) WHO ECU MAKES SPARK:
the CPM must not  be dead, if dead there can be NO SPARK.
the CPM sends a pulse to the ECU. (PCM new name 1997) eLECTRONIC ENGINE CONTROL UNIT.
a scope connected to CMP looks just like this(click me!) at idle and does  not EVER MISFIRE< if does?, the CMP is BAD.(or ground or all wires to Distrib are bad)

  1. this signal CMP the ECU uses to generate spark.
  2. next the ECU looks at RPM ,  engine load  to find the correct timing using the MAP matrix in color I posted before this post) 
  3. {{ if freeze jumper not present , hold timing at static 0 means -5DegBTDC}} IF ecu in limphome mode advance now dead.means not DTC code 12.
  4. It finds that MAP(chart) table data matching that load (etc) and then fires the IGNITOR to SPARK COIL, and spark HAPPENS now.
  5. jump to 1,  this jump means a loop in software and just repeats spark endlessly in a loop, jump to #1 (or is and ISR  method,  "CMP interrupt code")
THE CMP is just like the drummer boy in a band, all spark is timed off (triggered/sync'd) this master clock  timing device.
CMP is the master timing device.  if dead spark end. if drops out spark fails and misfires.
IF CMP shows bad signals that  means it is bad or the cam is jumping bad and wrong.  (CMP lies or is telling the truth and CAM is bad(jumping badly)

as I told you the CMP can fail  and not be anything to do with ECU , spark ,coil ,ingnitor, distributor at all.
The cam belt loose makes the CMP misfire. (even confuse the ECU)
The cam has 1 belt and 2 COG wheels,  if either are bad, the cam can JOG like mad and the CMP is driven from this cam end. and if the cam acts wildly so will CMP.

If the crank cog is bad then it is. ALL Spark generation starts here,  at the Timing belt change out 60k miles we just look first the set the bolt to new spec 94ft.lbs )

like this,  if this happens the cog jogs,  if loose it goes wild and cam and CMP + distributor goes wild. THIS what causes TIMING GONE WILD (#1 common fail)
[Image: CoBeater-horror1a.jpg]

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - fixkick - 12-19-2020

this is 150psi compression.
if I saw that, ever, test done correctly,  at sea level
the crank end would be looked at next for sure that huge 17mm hex head bolt on the end found loose.
vast cars like this are in the scrap yards, or just  engine.  $400 cranks and hug labor to fix it , becomes the end for most owners.
we have vast posts on this , due to owners not doing the TSB rules (click me)on this, set the bolt to 94/ft/lbs, not 50 ,not ever less than 94
Again the FREEZE only freezes the ELECTRONIC ADVANCE. so you can set static timing, that is ITS only purpose to set hood sticker stated, static advance -5D.BTDC
and the rules on my freeze page all apply every one not 8v rules. 

if you advance the throttle valve (foot or hand) the idle switch opens and 5vdc on that pin ENDS THE FREEZE state. on all trackers. (sidekicks etc)
that act  ends  the freeze state (owner trying ot drive?) for one reason so as not to burn up a GOOD cat converter, with dead ADVANCE.
now you know why.
on newer 96+ sidekicks the PCM sets DTC error for Freeze jump ,we forgot to remove. (so you do not damage the CAT) your ECU has no such warning.

RE: 95 tracker miss after warm up - 1995 toad - 12-20-2020

sorry yes... it idles perfect.. at 5* btdc just as it should.
then you can start to rev it up and it will run fine then suddenly intermittently start missing.
or maybe stumbling would be a better term because the timing is moving not missing.
and when you start to rev it, that's when it will go from a normal advanced state (watching with a timing light on #1 plug wire) at around
20 ish degrees to the left of the timing marks on the cover to approximately 3* atdc. just to the right of the timing marks on the cover.
and it will do this very intermittently. it will go back to the previous btdc timing with no lag between so either the 20ish degrees or the 3*atdc.
I hope i am explaining this better this time